Closed Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 68

Thread: Defense and its limitations

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,438
    it's always +140 defense skill over your base level, at level 70 it was 350 + 140 = 490, at 80 it's 400+140 = 540, prebc it was 300+140 so yes it was 440. However, gear and bosses were not created with being uncrittable in mind. Most gear didn't even have +defense on it let alone enough gear to make you uncrittable in t1 and probably t2, the crit min wasn't even realistic until i think AQ40 and T3. However, they also coded bosses so that if they did crit it didn't 1shot the tank. That is NOT the case now, they fully intend crits from bosses to be so devastating that being uncrittable is a minimum for a reason.

    To spout off that having a small chance to be crittable is okay because pre-bc it was okay is silly.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    558
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    To spout off that having a small chance to be crittable is okay because pre-bc it was okay is silly.
    This.

    Try arguing the mathematical chances of getting crit with 539 defense skill with 24 people that just wiped at 5% on a progression kill because you died from a statistical improbablility, just so you could squeeze another 500 health out of your outfit. I have a feeling they will be less than understanding.

  3. #43
    This is quite possibly one of the worst threads I have read...540 def is easy period end of story, I was over 540 when I dinged 80 and didnt have any titansteel gear until a few days later. Yes you have to prioritze defense at times and throw in a def gem to compensate for the increased avoidance/stam on raid gear but thats the point. Throw all the +def enchants on your gear and leave them until you KNOW you will never need them again. Get one of the +def trinkets as a fallback if you need so, truth be told the +def trinkets usually give you the most avoidance anyway. You wanted to be a tank, YOU wanted to be the superstar, YOU wanted to be the focus of everything you do, and yes usually theres no pat ont he back if you do your job, now do it exceptional and you may get one. No there is no meter to top, or crit numbers to brag about...You are Terrel Davis to John Elway, you make it all go, you are the reason your team succeed's are are truley the MVP but are overshadowed by someone more glorious with their pretty little meters....DEAL WITH IT you need to be the mroe geared, most skilled, and have the smallest margin of error thats why most of us decided to be tanks. As far as healer/dps not having limits, well thats your fault or your raid leaders fault as my guild did not raid the second we had the numbers to do so, healers all had to get to 1800sp and all dps needed to be hit capped.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4
    Considering Sapphiron hits for 6-9k damage at most, even if your health is at 26k you can't get one shotted, or critted for 28k. Not to mention you still have the same chance to avoid a crit as any other attack, so yeah, your avoidance goes up .2%, boss' crit chance goes up .1%. It's a fair deal. Unless of course your healers blow.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,438
    .1% chance to get crit is still .1% chance to get crit even if you gain .2% avoidance. What part of the combat table don't you understand?

    and getting crit for 18k is a pretty big deal if your health is at 26k, follow that up with another 9k hit, and a blizzard in your face and you're talking strained healing and possible death.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4
    What part about boss damage don't you understand? You play out that scenario as if Sapphiron is going to crit you with a cleave and then hit you with another cleave immediately after. Not sure if you've checked man but there's time inbetween bosses attacks.

    Not to mention that any tank who actually, y'know, knows what they're doing, isn't going to sit there and say "Well gee look at that! He just crit me! I sure hope my healers can compensate." It's your job as the tank to either a) use any abilities at your disposale to mitigate incoming damage when you have low health, or b) if you know your healers are too terrible to compensate then doa self heal (like death pact), or c) if your healers are REALLY bad then get a LoH from a paladin, it's pretty rare to be running a raid that doesn't have one these days.

    You seem to be forgetting that your job as a tank isn't to just sit there and take hits, it's to mitigate as much damage as possible, and if mitigating more damage 100% of the time means taking an astronimcally improbable chance of taking enough burst damage to kill you, then it's worth it. The only fight one could even argue that being critted once could wipe you is with Gluth due to his decimates.

    Plus the only items that this is even an issue for are tier items, which even though they have less defense they have gem sockets. You can't honestly tell me that you'd go into a raid with 5k less health and 10% less avoidance b/c you're worried that the 1 in 1000 chance the boss will one shot you is going to make Naxx impossible.

  7. #47
    Considering Sapphiron hits for 6-9k damage at most, even if your health is at 26k you can't get one shotted, or critted for 28k. Not to mention you still have the same chance to avoid a crit as any other attack, so yeah, your avoidance goes up .2%, boss' crit chance goes up .1%. It's a fair deal. Unless of course your healers blow.
    On 10 man...on 25, he and several other bosses hit well into the 10-14k range (Malygos, Sapp, Faerlina enraged, Maexxna, even poor Thaddius can break 10k). The last WWS I have of Sapp includes a 13k hit, and my gear is pretty close to all best in slot...

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    536
    Quote Originally Posted by Selyndia View Post
    On 10 man...on 25, he and several other bosses hit well into the 10-14k range (Malygos, Sapp, Faerlina enraged, Maexxna, even poor Thaddius can break 10k). The last WWS I have of Sapp includes a 13k hit, and my gear is pretty close to all best in slot...
    And that's a white hit, non crit. throw in a cleave or breath, and even a good tank is dying or dead.

    Now, to Apokk. You're using Pre-BC raids to say that crits aren't all that bad. You're forgetting the crit damage ratio n pre-BC was much lower. Crits re-BC are like crushes in BC; annoying, but survivable as long as you don't get slammed with several in a row.

    Crits in BC/LK can be fatal pretty easily. And I'm sorry, I'd rather be a few hundred HP or 1% lower on avoidance, then put a 0.1% chance of a one-shot weakness in. And have to explain to my raid that we wiped because of something like that. You're saying it's a 1 in 1000 chance and you're right. Guess how long it takes you to get hit 1000 times. Not all that long.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Selyndia View Post
    On 10 man...on 25, he and several other bosses hit well into the 10-14k range (Malygos, Sapp, Faerlina enraged, Maexxna, even poor Thaddius can break 10k). The last WWS I have of Sapp includes a 13k hit, and my gear is pretty close to all best in slot...
    And you're well over the 540 defense "cap" so there is no chance for you to be critted. The original writer of this thread is wondering if it's worth it to take a t7 item and suffer a slight hit on defense for more avoidance and stam or if they should stay with an item that is overall much worse. Nobody is going to tank 25 mans in blues, so there really isn't much chance to even be below the defense cap.

    And Eisen, to get hit 1000 times is going to be between 20-30 minutes of straight fighting. Unless you're doing an abnormally long fight your chances of being critted at all during the fight are going to be 50% at best. The chance of it being the one time when you for whatever reason are low health and do not have any active mitigation up is even lower. Not to mention Fights where you can actually be hit very hard (sapph, maly, patchwerk) are either short, or seperated into phases so much of the encounter you're not getting hit by direct melee attacks. And btw, bosses did crush pre-bc, which did do double damage.
    Last edited by Apokk; 03-24-2009 at 06:23 PM.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,193
    Getting to the 540 defense to be not crit is a healthy thing. Because defense provides so much more stats it means you go into your raids as a more balanced tank.

    Would they do away with crits and you would see the full stamina 0 avoidance tanks on the rise. They might look big and bad at first, but then everyone will wonder why they keep wiping and healers are oom so often.

    No, 540 defense is healthy.

  11. #51
    The point of me stating that my gear was almost best in slot, wasn't because of his chance to crit me, but that even with that much armor, that he still hit that hard...

    The point that others are trying to make is, as a tank, your goal is survivability, threat and DPS, in that order.

    A dead tank is neither producing threat nor dealing damage.

    If your current piece of gear, prevents you from randomly taking double damage from an attack, it clearly is "better" than another item in which you have a chance, regardless of how minuscule, as the "Worse" item improves your survivability.

    Also Crushing Blows were 50% more, not double damage.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    39
    Its about options and limitations when it comes to def. I think we tanks should get a talent in the prot trees that increases our def closer to 540 or a percentage. Dont have it hit 540 but and leave enough were they could lower the def ratings on our gear and therefore allow us to choose other stats and have a few heavy def peices for avoidance sets. This is for that guy that said I dont have any ideas...well here is one. not perfect but it would allow us to have more usefullness in our gear instead of a good portion of its itmlvl i taken up by the def.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokk View Post
    What part about boss damage don't you understand? You play out that scenario as if Sapphiron is going to crit you with a cleave and then hit you with another cleave immediately after. Not sure if you've checked man but there's time inbetween bosses attacks.
    There are many possible scenarios when crit WILL kill you, like Malygos breath + crit combo etc. There is no point in debating if Sapphiron is one of them or not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokk View Post
    Not to mention that any tank who actually, y'know, knows what they're doing, isn't going to sit there and say "Well gee look at that! He just crit me! I sure hope my healers can compensate." It's your job as the tank to either a) use any abilities at your disposale to mitigate incoming damage when you have low health, or b) if you know your healers are too terrible to compensate then doa self heal (like death pact), or c) if your healers are REALLY bad then get a LoH from a paladin, it's pretty rare to be running a raid that doesn't have one these days.
    Your job as a tank is to survive and keep aggro. You survive by minimazing the incoming damage, especially damage spikes. First and foremost you achieve that by reaching 5.6% critical hit chance reduction. You need to do it before you even start to think about blowing oh crap buttons or blaming your healers. Correct reactions in case of emergency are great, but if you can prevent the chance of emergency happening in the first place, you should. And you can, easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokk View Post
    Plus the only items that this is even an issue for are tier items, which even though they have less defense they have gem sockets. You can't honestly tell me that you'd go into a raid with 5k less health and 10% less avoidance b/c you're worried that the 1 in 1000 chance the boss will one shot you is going to make Naxx impossible.
    Such exaggeration makes you only look ridiculous. If I lack minimal def to being uncritable, I can resocket one gem or reenchant one slot, I don't know gems or enchants that provide me with 5k health and 10% avoidance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krisby View Post
    Its about options and limitations when it comes to def. I think we tanks should get a talent in the prot trees that increases our def closer to 540 or a percentage. Dont have it hit 540 but and leave enough were they could lower the def ratings on our gear and therefore allow us to choose other stats and have a few heavy def peices for avoidance sets. This is for that guy that said I dont have any ideas...well here is one. not perfect but it would allow us to have more usefullness in our gear instead of a good portion of its itmlvl i taken up by the def.
    Defense with current itemization isn't limiting you in any way once you get decent lvl 80 gear. Def is perfectly good stat, one of the best available for us. Avoidance isn't something you want only on avoidance set, it has its place in each tanking set in some reasonable amounts.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    39
    Source Hengist

    Defense with current itemization isn't limiting you in any way once you get decent lvl 80 gear. Def is perfectly good stat, one of the best available for us. Avoidance isn't something you want only on avoidance set, it has its place in each tanking set in some reasonable amounts.


    I think it is in fact limiting when you get a new piece of gear and are forced to socket them with def just to remain at your 540 rating. Defense rating eats alot of points out of an items level. By that I mean that each item is only allowed a certain amount of stats and those stats are balanced around this idea. With defense more and more of those stats are limited such as gem sockets, stamina, block,....and so forth.

    You are then either.
    A)Forced to put defense gems and enchants in gear
    or B) Have a piece with alot of defense but less of the other stats

    Also I never said it was a bad stat I said that it was a broken one in its use and design. Its the only stat in the game that you must reach a minimum then continue to stay at that level. Please read my other posts in this thread before you think I see defense as just a avoidance stat. I realize it has other uses. Thank you.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Krisby View Post
    I think it is in fact limiting when you get a new piece of gear and are forced to socket them with def just to remain at your 540 rating. Defense rating eats alot of points out of an items level. By that I mean that each item is only allowed a certain amount of stats and those stats are balanced around this idea. With defense more and more of those stats are limited such as gem sockets, stamina, block,....and so forth.
    If the new item after you socket defense in is still an upgrade, you are good. If it is not, it wasn't worth changing in the first place.

    Defense doesn't eat any item points, this expression suggest you lose something, while you do not. Druid could say that for him defense is eating item points, because he would get greater benefit by getting dodge, agi or something. But for us defense is one of the absolutely top stats, we do not lose anything at all by getting it. What is wrong in getting more defense especially at gear levels when staying at def minimum could be an issue, defense is only good. Defense becomes less desirable only if you are at rather high avoidance levels, but then you are so purple that you can afford going for health enchant for chest, even if it is worth less item points than def enchant on chest without risking going below the minimum.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Krisby View Post
    I think it is in fact limiting when you get a new piece of gear and are forced to socket them with def just to remain at your 540 rating. Defense rating eats alot of points out of an items level. By that I mean that each item is only allowed a certain amount of stats and those stats are balanced around this idea. With defense more and more of those stats are limited such as gem sockets, stamina, block,....and so forth.

    You are then either.
    A)Forced to put defense gems and enchants in gear
    or B) Have a piece with alot of defense but less of the other stats
    What you still need to demonstrate is that this an actual limitation of your performance, rather than an imaginary one. That you may have to resocket is a minor inconvenience, but as long as your total stats add up to what they need to be, your optimal tanking performance doesn't suffer any harm.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    39
    Actual limitations exist.

    One such example is health. Death knights and druids outrank us in this department. Yes they are suppose to have higher health since they can not use a shield. But however if you have ever pug'ed anything you would also realize that now aday's it seems main tanks are chosen by their stamina.

    Sure you could chalk it up to ignorance of the pug leaders but it is also a smart approach. Many encounters need more leh way and with the current ease of content most people want that in the form of a high health tank. Sure you can reach great heights but also no one cares that you carry around a shield. It seems almost irrelevant now.

    Lower health is a very real limitation caused by def and even though I know the difference and smart leaders do to it still is an issue non the less.

    Truth is I use to be a MT and OT throughout original/bc/and Wotlk but I have had real life cut my play time in half as of late and I am no longer able to raid with my guild if at all. I am forced to pug so that I am able to be ready when Ulduar comes out and I have more time and these limits hurt when under these circumstances. I just got a new chest piece I had to put def gems in it...without them I was under 540. I just don't see the ability to be more fluid in my choices and when trying to speak of these limitations that DO exist its hard hearing people speak about it with such myopic views on the matter.

    Just because your the MT or you have no problems doesn't mean there isnt a problem. Sure if your in the top tier gear its easier...always has been. However when your not and hoping to be chosen for a run and your not. It really bugs me and I wish I could somehow have more stamina just to be picked up instead of sitting at 28.5k health and unable to move that without going below 540 def.

    I am specc'ed to tank I should have the option to be closer to that optimal 540 and able to focus on whatever stat I want to. Choice! Not everyone wants to be or has to be that cookie cutter tank. If you wanna be the highest HP warrior there is you should be able to, If you wanna be the highest block value warrior you should be able to...and so on and so forth. Most of the time you can but I dont think they are maximized to thier full extent or ability because of your always watchful eye on def.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,023
    Honestly, I have never resocketed to maintain 540 defense. It isn't as limiting as you are making it out. Sure you have to watch it, but it isn't a big hassle. All it takes is some planning as you level. Once you start getting naxx gear, it really isn't even a visable issue. Sure when you are first hitting 80, you have to worry a little, but you absolutely do not have to socket / resocket for defense if you do not want to.

    Part of the issue is how you are approaching your gearing. You are using the commendation trinket and then gemming defense. If you farm HoL regular, you can pick up the defense trinket there. The defense trinket is worth just over 4 defense gems. The Commendation of Kael is only worth just over 2 stamina gems. The same is true about your chest enchant. If you replaced it with a defense enchant, then you could swap out a defense gem for a stamina one and you would come out with better stats overall. Use a defense enchant on your cloak instead of agility.

    You are wasting defense capable spots and then complaining how you have to balance around not having enough defense. Take some time to plan out your gear a bit better, and things will not be as difficult to manage.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Krisby View Post
    I just got a new chest piece I had to put def gems in it...without them I was under 540. I just don't see the ability to be more fluid in my choices and when trying to speak of these limitations that DO exist its hard hearing people speak about it with such myopic views on the matter
    16 def is an equivalent of 24 stamina in gem slot. That is 15 health per one defense rating point.

    22 def is an equivalent of 275 health in chest enchant slot. That is 12,5 health per one defense rating point.

    Then come BoK and Vitality, which further favour stamina in gem slot over health in enchantment. And then comes the price, Enchant Chest - Greater Defense - Spell - World of Warcraft vs Enchant Chest - Super Health - Spell - World of Warcraft - def enchant, while giving more point per point is considerably less expensive.

    Why I do not think defense isn't limiting us at all? Because defense becomes less desirable only past some value of total avoidance, and that number isn't reachable without being well past the defense minimum anyway, assuming reasonable enchanting, gemming and gear choice. Of course for you that total avoidance number might be lower than for me, and that is probably why we disagree - for me 40% total avoidance isn't comfortable enough for main tanking gear set for bosses that can hurt me in melee. I'm happy once past around 50%, you probably do not want that much and would like to trade everything over some number into health.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    28
    When I first dinged 80 I was just a tad shy of 540 Def. It wasn't because the gear was hard to come by, I just had my head down levelling and didn't take the time to plan. I got by early with the lesser flasks of toughness for a couple of runs until I did my homework and got the gear.

    Most classes have a stat (or two) they have to hit some minimums or they don't perform well. Tanks are the same way. The difference is the price for poor performance with a DPS or healer is that someone else has to pick up your slack but a tank brings about a wipe. I am ok with that.

    I think gambling with the raid group against a RNG is irresponsible. It may never happen but when it does you are 100% at fault. You can't expect a healer to cover for that. That is like blaming the healers for not healing you through Sarth 3D just because you can survive a single hit but not 2 in succession.

    I am currently tweaking my gear for Sarth 3D and am just a couple points shy of 540 but you can believe that when we pull Sarth, I'll have 540 minimum.
    Ideus, Blood Elf Death Knight
    Officer, Tears of the Phoenix, Ysera US

Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts