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Thread: Defense and its limitations

  1. #21
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    I agree with the OP too. Getting 540 easy? i guess you havent leveled up a new tank recently. Have fun trying to find groups for normal HoL with your crap gear. Wyrmrest is extremely hard to get rep with if you're not running heroics yet. Even with the low market prices of today, getting a set of titansteel stuff costs quite a bit. A cost most other classes can afford to not spend as there are already enough pugs to sneak in on.

    And it's not just about Woltk or starter gear for heroics. Consider resist gear.
    Take Hydross for example. Getting the resist gear is already a tough/expensive job - one that only tanks have to bear. On top, you have to go WAY out of your way to get uncrittable because, unlike the sissy bosses in current content, Hydross critting with several Marks on will 1-shot you. I was lucky to not have thrown away my T4 epics so i could achieve uncrittable max resist easily. But it also ended up with me being the only tank equipped well enough for Hydross. Blizzard has already stated they like the idea of resistance fights so i expect this problem to pop up again.

    As Muffin Man so eloquently put ("But isn't being that single point of failure why we signed on to tank?) being the special somebody is flattering, but it still puts undue pressure on the guy who has the most pressure to start with.

  2. #22
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    I disagree, with the new tabard system and the plethora of rep gear available, getting to critical minimum is easier than it ever has been. (and you can even get the cheap pvp stuff for the resillience on the way), do you expect to just hit 80 and be entitled to go to heroics (like all of the sub 1k dps seem to)?, normals exist for the very reason of new people getting upgrades in a less challenging environment, perhaps instead of complaining that your gear isnt up to what you are trying to do immediately, you go and work on it in the areas you are geared for.

    One of the defining things about tanking is simply, that it isn't easy, yes, you do have to carry multiple gearsets for different purposes, and sometimes, gear isn't a straight upgrade it's a situational sidegrade, wearing one set of gear all the time , well that's the province of the dps guys (and even they have to juggle pieces to maintain their hit cap).

    I'll freely admit that getting set up to tank hydross was a speed hump, of course in contrast, as the tank, i was the only one who _didn't_ have to get shadow resistance gear for Sharaz, so it balanced out in the end.
    If your tanks weren't geared for hydross it was simply due to laziness and lack of a sensible guild gearing structure (these are the exact reason things like guild banks exist for).

    In short, half the battle as a tank is gearing appropriately, it's another challenge and , personally , I enjoy having all of those choices to make and balance. It's a role where there is optimal, and then there is everything else, and _that's_ why I love it.
    Last edited by Bokur; 03-21-2009 at 08:28 AM.

  3. #23
    The OP is entirely correct, a L80 tank is expected/required to have 540 defense, no other class has a stat like this.

    Is it fair? Hmm, maybe, maybe not. I run heroics with tanks that aren't crit immune and don't complain providing they warn me. regarding Naxx, there are some bosses you do not want to be critted by; Patchwerk, Sapphiron, possibly Gluth, not sure about Maexxna.

    Lets presume a 5 minute fight and you getting struck at once per second, that's 300 swpies in your general direction. If you have 539 def each one has a 0.04% chance to crit. (For those that care the chance of NOT being critted is 0.9996 to the power of 300.) So you will go uncritted 88.7% of the time.

    Putting this another way roughly one in nine tries will have you critted.

    Defense Chance of going 300 blows without a crit.
    539 88.7%
    538 78.7%
    537 69.8%
    536 61.9%
    535 54.8%

    So are these probabilites you feel comfortable with?

    (edited because I need to L2PostProperly)

  4. #24
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    Honestly, having to put some thought into gearing, carry multiple gearsets, juggle avoidance stats while maintaining the defense MINIMUM, are all things that I like about tanking. But is it really any different....

    I raided as a mage through BC and carried around one set of gear. You know what cap you HAD to reach if you want to be any kind of raider? The hit cap. All other stats were secondary, and "upgrades" often came at the expense of having to juggle items to maintain the hit cap. Why not just remove the chance to hit from the game, wouldn't that be "easier"?

    I don't know if this is what you are asking for, but your post seems to suggest that all plate classes should get talented uncrittability. Then we would just wear DPS plate gear, gemmed for stam and avoidance rather than damage. Of course, then DKs would have to get these talents in all three trees, and would easily be able to out threat/damage warriors and paladins who would have to spec into low damage prot trees to get the same "uncrittable" talents.

    Gearing up to, and maintaining, 540 defense is easy. Maintaing the hit cap is easy. Hell, World of Warcraft is easy, how much easier to you want this game to be?

  5. #25
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    Having the defense minimum keeps tanks honest. We are the most important part of a raid, since there are rarely more than 2 or 3 of us in 25 mans, and in all honesty I would rather have lacking dps than lacking tanks. Some may argue against that saying that good dps is required to meet a timer, or good healing is required to keep the tank up, but if the tank is skilled/geared, they can effectively balance the missing dps/heals. If your tank sucks, there's nothing you can do about it. No amount of healing is going to keep a tank that is not crit immune from being crit, and on a hard hitting boss (say, a dragon), most probably one-shot, and no amount of misdirects/ToTs will keep a bad tank from losing aggro to a geared mage.

  6. #26
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    According to your logic, its a crime to optimize your gear to perform your given role. DPS work around their hit/expertise/mana regen/crit to a certain level to perform their role , while u find it limited to do the same with defense which is easy achievable with 5 man instance.

    DPS has to beat enrage timers on certain bosses, you have to stay alive.

    They cap the required stats to perform good dps, you cap defense and thats needed to stay alive.
    it makes no difference.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    I agree with the OP too. Getting 540 easy? i guess you havent leveled up a new tank recently. Have fun trying to find groups for normal HoL with your crap gear.
    It is, in fact, not very hard, and you don't need to run Halls of Lightning for it (for the Seal of the Pantheon, I presume). I am, in fact, looking at the armory of a paladin friend of mine right now who hit 80 a few days ago and has 540 defense with nothing but quest and crafted gear (not even the defense trinkets from TBC).

    Wyrmrest is extremely hard to get rep with if you're not running heroics yet.
    Wyrmrest reputation is pretty easy to get through questing and, again, not necessary to hit 540 defense. (The cloak is even available at honored reputation, too, which is very easy to get.)

    Even with the low market prices of today, getting a set of titansteel stuff costs quite a bit.
    Titansteel helm and boots actually do not have very high defense. Their item budget is generally slanted towards stamina. Which, of course, still helps you because you can then still tweak defense through enchantments without sacrificing health, but there are perfectly fine alternatives for those slots with higher defense and quite appropriate stamina levels. The Crusader's Resolution, for example, is a fine tanking helm, available through an easy quest, and with 14 more defense rating than the Tempered Titansteel Helm.

    That does not mean that I consider the defense mechanic to be a particularly good design, but you vastly exaggerate the problems a tank faces. Get quest gear, crafted gear (I mean Tempered Saronite, not the expensive Titansteel stuff), and reputation rewards, and you should be set.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikhe View Post
    According to your logic, its a crime to optimize your gear to perform your given role. DPS work around their hit/expertise/mana regen/crit to a certain level to perform their role , while u find it limited to do the same with defense which is easy achievable with 5 man instance.

    DPS has to beat enrage timers on certain bosses, you have to stay alive.

    They cap the required stats to perform good dps, you cap defense and thats needed to stay alive.
    it makes no difference.
    Its not about getting to 540 that I have a problem with. Or even doing it myself. Its about having a stat that we MUST maximize to tank. Its not about working toward a goal like hit.

    You can still dps with lower than perfect +hit though not as well as a better dps. You can still heal with lower than perfect +spell power just not as well as other healers.

    You can even tank with less than perfect def but you will get crit you ,will piss everyone off, and you will die, your not as good as other tanks but also you are not a tank. Technically your not because your squishy and no one wants a crited tank.

    And yes you may say no one wants bad dps but there are many of them, there are also many healers. Though you want to maximize those aspects of your raids members they are not as important.

    Dont get me wrong I don't mind being important or even having to do this. But the problem I have is that this stat is the only one in the game that you must meet. I can not emphasis this enough this is the only stat that requires someone to reach a certain level and must remain at that point throughout the lifetime of the current level cap.

    There is something inherently wrong in that idea and I feel that my and any tanks choices and options are severally diminished because of it. I also realize we can go for block, or avoidance, or EH, or any other stat but in all those builds of gear our def must remain at or above 540. So in that aspect we are limited by this requirement.

    I don't honestly know a solution that would work for this problem. But I would like to talk about it for sure. I don't think I am the only one who thinks there is a flaw, and a glaring one at that, with the defense stat.

  9. #29
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    Okay look at it a different way it's 5.4% reduction in taking crits for heroics and 5.6% for heroics. Mathmatically in just defense it's 535 and 545. It is also a dmg reducer and adds to your mitigation. Stack resilience if you want to cycle in some crit gear for heroics.

    To say other classes don't have to worry about gear to enter raids or heroics is just wrong. How many under 1500 dpsers are you keeping in any 25 man raid? W/O combined 4500dps from the party most Heroics are gonna be a wipe and for a tank under 24k buffed health a healer doing less then 1800hps is a fail as well.

    With lvl 78 rep gear and the crafted shield along with CoT's lvl 70 head buff your at 540 with non epic gems. So I don't see the problem. In all honesty achieveing the 2k dps standard for heroics is alot harder.

    And if you just wanna remove crits off the table go resilience but let the healer know your gonna take more dmg overall. I have a dps tank set I use for OT raids and Heroics that has my defense at 498 but IM still crit immune. Incoming dmg increases but I can do 1800dps 5 man buffed w/o pots or food buffs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #30
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    It's all about the numbers. If there were five tanks, three healers, and 2 dps needed for a ten man, I bet everyone would want to be 100% sure those two dpsers were geared properly, hit capped, and specced properly, because the success of the raid depends on those two people.

    You are in a role that only two or three people in the raid share. It is a crutial one that requires a proper balance of stats, with a specific one that the community has deemed MUST be met.

    The only ways that I can come up with to "fix" your issue with needing 540 defese is to remove crits from them game, or give every tank talented uncrittability. Unless you can think of a better way.

    Which, by the way, is the only thing missing from your argument, a solution. You havn't proposed, suggested, or even hinted at what you think should be changed to allow tanks to completely ignore defense rating.

    IMO, put forth a proposed change for us to discuss or leave the topic alone.

  11. #31
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    Initially hitting 540 is easy peasy. But after you start getting some epics with less Def more avoid, it becomes more challenging.
    That's the same with every class.

    Healers need oodles of spell power, and once they start running some stuff try to get some more crit/hit/spirit/etc. Initially they want SP though.

    DPS is the same. Once you start gearing, you want strength. Lots. Then once you get at a fair amount, then you start going for crit/hit/exp.

    But, as always, tanks notice it more because they set the pace of the group. A sub-par dps is ok, but a crap tank is not.


    PS: Hit rating works the same way for everyone else. I had almost 400 at one time (when I was undergeared) and then started to get some 200s/213's and watched my hit fall to like 150. As a TG warrior low hit = low DPS. I had to work to get more hit, which made me bench some good pieces.

  12. #32
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    You can look at it as yes tanks are the only ones 'required' to maximize a certain stat in order to tank raids, however you're generalizing what people expect of tanks. I expect the exact same of my dps in raids. If they're not hit capped they don't come, that simple. It's easy to get to and yes you may have to use blues in order to obtain it but it is easily the best stat to increase your dps so there's no reason to not be hit capped just like there's no reason to not be defense capped.

    In my opinion they made gearing for tanking raids much easier when they removed crushing blows from bosses, so there's no real excuse now to not be defense capped.

  13. #33
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    You think otherwise dont need to get stats maxed? Is there a law that requires you to get 540 defense? no. There isn't. What it is is that the community as a whole recognizes that your survival in a raid is dramatically improved when you are above the no-crit line. Just like most informed raid leaders would expect magic dps to be hit capped, or having a healer with a certain line of mp5/regen. The only difference is often these lines are not well defined AND there is a lot of bad raid leaders out there who don't enforce things like that.

    Tanks are easy to enforce. The funny part is even you admit its easy to get to 540. A lot of the blue crafted gear can tide you over till your epics push you over or till you get a hold of one of the defense trinkets.

    It is a demand enforced by the community. You can raid below but your chances of survival are lower. A dps can raid without hit cap, but his damage will be lower. Same concept. Tanks have a spotlight, you take damage, you die and the raid typically wipes... its responsibility. If you don't want responsibility, then why tank?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisby View Post
    Its not about getting to 540 that I have a problem with. Or even doing it myself. Its about having a stat that we MUST maximize to tank. Its not about working toward a goal like hit.
    All classes have stats they aspire to maximize & improve upon. Be thankful that defense has a soft cap that you need, but exceeding it isn't required. Blizzard designed a significant amount of quest, reputation and crafted items with the intent of providing defense as a stat, along with stamina/strength, for tanks to employ pre-heroic/raids. Saying that defense isn't fair ignores that Blizzard as structured the game in our favor.

    Hitting 540 isn't hard, but it does take some research and work. If you aren't willing to put that effort out, you'll suffer the consequence of not being crit immune. That's your choice, not Blizzard's.

    The rub is if tanks all were able to be crit immune via talents, I would see this same argument about why tanks had to maximize dodge/parry/stamina as a requirement, especially for some fights (Patchwerk soakers, for example). Again, Blizzard has provided the tools to meet those needs. Part of playing this game is working to have the appropriate gear, and in that regard, tanks are the same as everyone else. Folks are looking for upgrades to improve the role they fill, though what a specific class/role needs varies considerably.

  15. #35
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    I think people are still caught up on the idea of 540 defense or being uncrittable via gear as being easy or a tank's duty, which is fine, and I agree with it, but the problem is that one of the tanking classes is in fact uncrittable via stats and the others are not. It would be the same kind of argument if, say, Boomkins suddenly could max the casting hit cap via talents, so now they can max out their gear, gems, and enchants on spell power, crit, etc. Balance (pun not intended) is also a big issue here, not simply eliminating the Defense cap for crittability.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halgreg View Post
    I think people are still caught up on the idea of 540 defense or being uncrittable via gear as being easy or a tank's duty, which is fine, and I agree with it, but the problem is that one of the tanking classes is in fact uncrittable via stats and the others are not. It would be the same kind of argument if, say, Boomkins suddenly could max the casting hit cap via talents, so now they can max out their gear, gems, and enchants on spell power, crit, etc. Balance (pun not intended) is also a big issue here, not simply eliminating the Defense cap for crittability.
    Unless you can show that having to spend itemization points on defense is an actual and not just an imaginary handicap, this won't be going anywhere. Warriors, paladins, and deathknights are balanced around the assumption that a certain portion of their itemization budget goes towards defense rating. Druids are balanced around the assumption that they don't spend itemization points on defense.

    Just saying that crit-immunity works differently for these classes is pointless, because they have completely different mitigation mechanics.

  17. #37
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    This really is a non-issue.

    WoW is all about character progression. A Prot War starts out with low mitigation, low avoidance, low defense, and low health. That's just the nature of the game, you don't need it for the content of leveling, if you want to do some regular instances you'll do OK or you can push all four factors to give you your best odds.

    Now you're 80 and you're eying some heroic instances for better gear. You're going to have to deal with more incoming damage. Time to up your mitigation, avoidance, defense, and health to meet the challenge. Lots of options here...all four factors are important, not just defense.

    Heroics are on farm for you and you want more challenge. Now is the time to move into raid content and join a raiding guild. Defense at 540 should no longer be an issue, but you may need to gem/enchant for it the odd time as you piece together your raid tanking set. You're likely going to be OTing at this point with a more seasoned tank working as MT....possibly if you're in a new guild you'll be MT pushing through early raid content.

    Now you're a seasoned tank. 25 man Naxx and OS are on farm, you're the MT of a raiding guild or on the same footing as the guild's MT. You've got mostly best-in-slot gear. 540 defense is something you haven't thought about for a very, very long time...you may even have forgotten that 540 is the 'minimum' value for that stat. You're pushing the extremes of the current raid content such as 25m Sarth+3 or even 10m Sarth+3. You've got tons of enchanting and gemming options with your gear to push for a very high health pool, or high avoidance, or high mitigation, or high threat. You're at the apex of tanking skill and gear and have earned your notoriety as one of your server's best tanks.

    You don't get to start off your tanking career at the last stage. If you did the game would have much less fun than it currently does and there would be less to work towards. WotLK already suffers from the current raid content being too easy and gear being too readily available....it can get boring too fast as is. Enjoy working your way up through the challenges of the tanking career, you'll get there.
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  18. #38
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    I think if you're really concerned about being defense capped you might not understand exactly how it works. Every point of defense reduces the chance a boss has to hit you, crit you, and increases your chance to dodge/block/parry. Some people seem to have the subconscious impression that if you're not at exactly 540 defense or over than every boss is going to crit you every hit and wipe your raid. The difference in crit reduction is the same from 400-401 as it is from 539-540, choosing higher hp or avoidance over defense is always a viable option.

    I'd also like to add that you're comparing the defense cap in BC and WoTLK, and I think people are forgetting that in pre-bc there was no defense "cap", it was unreachable, and it didn't matter as the only way to get a high level of defense was through your t1, t2, and t3 set items. As a tank coming from pre-bc I think everyone's obsession with the defense cap is kind of a waste.

    I'd also like to add real quick that the whole reason for an easily obtainable defense cap is to help regulate your incoming damage to make healing easier. Pre-bc as a tank I'd have around 10 healers focused solely on me with a healing rotation, whether I was critted/crushed or not the heals would come. If the heals weren't keeping up w/ my damage intake we'd tighten the rotation, and the only purpose of increasing my gear level is to prevent the healers from going oom before the dps kills the boss. Nowadays with much fewer healers and more ppl getting hit with AoE you have fewer healers, and to keep them from overhealing you your damage has to come in at a fairly regular rate.

    In short, the defense cap is highly overrated, and if you get a t7.5 piece and it brings you below the defense cap the added damage mitigation and health is still going to be better. It's not like the boss is going to suddenly start critting you every hit, more like once every 100 hits.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokk View Post
    I'd also like to add that you're comparing the defense cap in BC and WoTLK, and I think people are forgetting that in pre-bc there was no defense "cap", it was unreachable, and it didn't matter as the only way to get a high level of defense was through your t1, t2, and t3 set items. As a tank coming from pre-bc I think everyone's obsession with the defense cap is kind of a waste.
    Excuse me?
    In short, the defense cap is highly overrated, and if you get a t7.5 piece and it brings you below the defense cap the added damage mitigation and health is still going to be better. It's not like the boss is going to suddenly start critting you every hit, more like once every 100 hits.
    Spike damage kill tanks. Critical hits are like ultimate spike damage. Small chance for an unhealable death is not something you should ever accept, given the choice. There is no excuse for not having the def minimum, since it is relatively easy to get. Eliminating literally one of the greatest threats for a tank can't be overrated.

  20. #40
    Spike damage kill tanks. Critical hits are like ultimate spike damage. Small chance for an unhealable death is not something you should ever accept, given the choice. There is no excuse for not having the def minimum, since it is relatively easy to get. Eliminating literally one of the greatest threats for a tank can't be overrated
    This...

    If tanking Sapp, and I see my health sitting at 26k, I know I am safe for at least another hit, and my healers do too. If I change the equation and suddenly I can be crit for 28k... the raid likely just wiped, on something I had the entire ability to fix, and thus should have full culpability, especially if I did it for something as minute as .2% avoidance, or 200 armor...

    And, my memory isn't as good as I think it was, but wasn't 440 the magic number pre TBC?

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