+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: 3.1 Blood versus Frost

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    16

    3.1 Blood versus Frost

    I've probably went about this the wrong way but I'm just trying to find out how frost and blood tanks in 3.1 compare on threat and damage taken.

    So I spent some time both on test dummies, in Halls of Lightning, and on L81 and L82 Elites in Icestorm and found that comparing this blood spec (which I like):

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9658

    and this frost spec:


    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9658

    That I generate about 8-10% more DPS as FROST. Now I have two questions...

    1. Would I expect group buffs to favour blood or frost over the other or should they both scale reasonabley similarly?
    2. What's the best way of measuring TPS?

    I was measuring DPS with Recount. All testing was done solo. I was a little disappointed that Blood fell so clearly behind frost as the change in play style is interesting.

    In terms of damage taken, I seam to take damage at the same rate in both specs which is surprising but both total damage and damage rate against me are almost identical. This is probably down to the gear I am wearing.

    Are these results to be expected? What tests should I run next? Ideally I would be testing with raid buffs.

    Thanks,
    Aenor
    Last edited by Aenor; 03-23-2009 at 06:03 AM. Reason: Edited as I had accidentally stated that Blood was more DPS than frost. Opposite is true.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    261
    Blood is more reliant on physical damage and crit/ap value then frost is.With more crits/ap from raidbuffs and sunders on the mobs, blood would likely be closer to frost in your case. Also cent of blood will give more rune strikes to the blood spec.

    Tbh i dont realy know how blood vs frost threat is in 3.1. It depends on so many things. What gear do you have, what buffs do you have and do your warrior bother to sunder the mob etc.. It's still early in the ptr and talents are likely to change so i would rather wait untill it hits live before making to much conclutions. Or head over to Elitis Jerks they have prolly done some excessive dps testing

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    I don't think you went about this the wrong way. Gauging any spec it is more valuable to compare your own performance with each, as it is largely a personal balance. Different people can get different potential out of each tree. I do think it may be a bit fast to judge between the two as an attentive player will take a month or two of continuous play to really iron out their moves and figure out the tricks of what fits where. It's also hard to test without the real hammering of a raid boss or large trash groups, depending on what your focus is.

    The thing to beware of is that you not see this as altruistic, Blood vs Frost in general. The sheep are ready to pounce on anyone's claims so they can cookie-cutter and stop fearing free thought. =)

    The thing to be aware of with Blood, actually, is that you can get a good margin of threat from healing as well, provided you time your moves well to heal, especially with the suped up DS. This won't be shown in dps, but it will also be wasted on a full health bar.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    16
    Of course tonights patch invalidates everything and sends me back to testing. Anecdotally I seamed to take a bit more damage as blood (although recount disagrees) although I ended with more HP if I timed my healing moves well. What I can't tell from this is the threat output, and I suspect I may need to raid with the spec to really tell. I feel a little less like I am running on rails with blood but that is probably just another way of saying I have spent a lot of time tanking as frost and blood has some novelty.

    The difficult thing with tanking builds is that tests tend to show survival or threat but can't measure "tank value" directly, in fact my tests haven't even directly measured threat and have focussed on DPS as a proxy.

    It is nice to be free of cookie cutter prescriptive builds although some of my alts have very little in the way of sensible alternatives to their builds.

  5. #5
    You can go with whichever playstyle you like, that's the beauty of the death knight, however I'm rather hesitant with blood in 3.1, while I've seen blood boil crit for 1.6k in frost pres with heroic lvl gear, I do not like the look of will of the necropolis, 15 second cooldown? if your at -35% wouldn't you be dying if you didn't have it as a constant damage reduction, this is assuming intense raid encounters.

    Blood will gain more from stamina buffs, and frost from armor, but either way it's a buff.

    I heard omen is a good tps gauge, although I don't use addons, I just hit enemies untill they glue to me.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Sadly, I agree on Will of the Necropolis, 3 pts feels expensive for an ability that is basically a one-shot saving grace every 15 sec. If your health is repeatedly dipping that low you have bigger problems.

    I'm liking Blood more now than even since the day of the meatshield seems to be upon us. They're cutting uptime for Bone Shield to less than half which is leaving me feeling like they're damaging my durability more than a little for Unholy, especially combined with Shadow of Death disappearing and taking 2% Str/Stam with it. Frost still looks to be the most traditionally durable, though I've been toying with the joys of major health stacking and bathing in what avoidance I can to get a bit of the traditional bear action (albeit with a little less armor and a bit more avoidance).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aenor View Post
    That I generate about 8-10% more DPS as blood. Now I have two questions...

    I was measuring DPS with Recount. All testing was done solo. I was a little disappointed that Blood fell so clearly behind frost as the change in play style is interesting.
    I'm a bit confused, you first say Blood did more DPS, but then you say Blood did worse DPS?

    Blood damage scales very well with physical damage debuffs you find in raids. A Frost spec w/o IIT (like yours) scales very well with haste buffs due to how PPM works with KM.

    The most significant raid buff for DK TPS IMO is BoS. Its RP generation is being removed in 3.1, but DKs look like their getting that ability back in Scent of Blood.

    Assuming high RP levels, Deep Frost FS is miles ahead of DC for Blood, especailly with Sudden Doom being nerfed in 3.1. OTOH, with DS being the basic FU rotation for Blood, the additional healing should generate quite a bit of threat.

    So much has changed for DKs in 3.1 i think it's going to be very difficult to predict threat based on just DPS tests.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Sudden Doom isn't exactly being nerfed, depending on how you look at it. It now delivers the DC without requiring a CD, which is nice, though the loss of control is a little unfortunate, as is the lack of 100% crit for building/keeping Bloody Vengeance stacked.

    One thing is clear though, without CE/UB from Unholy, and definitely without Morbidity, Blood doesn't have great uses for extra RP.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by taek View Post

    Assuming high RP levels, Deep Frost FS is miles ahead of DC for Blood, especailly with Sudden Doom being nerfed in 3.1. OTOH, with DS being the basic FU rotation for Blood, the additional healing should generate quite a bit of threat.

    So much has changed for DKs in 3.1 i think it's going to be very difficult to predict threat based on just DPS tests.

    Problem with healing threat from death strike is that most of the healing death strike will do on a main tank is over healing, overhealing = 0 threat.

    I look forward to testing to see if the RP gain from scent of blood finally give Energy gain threat, like every other Energy gain talent. It definately will be interesting to see what happens with all the changes on 3.1.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    That's partly true. You don't always have complete control over when you DS, but if you use it strategically the only time I find you don't get significant use of the healing is when you and your healers are too well geared for content and don't take enough damage. When you're taking semi-regular damage you can usually get a finer sense of when your health is about to drop and pause out that DS to match it.

    I was doing a rash of testing last night and it was actually pretty sharp. Glyphed my DS was hitting for about 1200-1400 without raid buffs, and 1600 non-crit if I let my RP stay at the high end of the gauge. It was healing on average 2600. The other thing is, it can be used strategically only to generate Death Runes, or it can be inserted when you actually do need the heals.

    The dynamics of DS haven't changed all that much, it's just doing better damage. It does leave me feeling much better about not taking Annihilation though, it's left me feeling like I can do more with Blood/Unholy.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by taek View Post
    I'm a bit confused, you first say Blood did more DPS, but then you say Blood did worse DPS?
    Sorry an annoying typo. Frost did more DPS than blood. Sadly as I quite liked the playstyle.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    The dynamics of DS haven't changed all that much, it's just doing better damage. It does leave me feeling much better about not taking Annihilation though, it's left me feeling like I can do more with Blood/Unholy.
    My untested suspicion at the moment is that very deep blood will scale well making it hard to find sufficient points to go deep in unholy. What spec are you testing at the moment?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Well, I did establish that it's not worth stretching for UB in Unholy unless you are spec'ing Unholy. Without the spell dmg buffs it hits rather softly.

    Blood-gorged on the other hand is a great buff if you play to the Blood style. On small groups and single targets my Blood build does about 50-70% of its total damage with melee, RS, HS, and DS, which all get very well buffed by both parts of Blood-gorged.

    I posted my most recent build here with commentary (big post near the bottom).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts