More On AOE Threat

[jere]

Well, for reference, my consecration hits mobs for 400 damage every second fully raid buffed, so that's 1068 TPS roughly.

[Unger]

If I may add my two cents....

I think that the debate of AOE tanking is interesting...., but the problem isn't that Paladins (or DK's) are better at it. They were in The Burning Crusade too. We weren't particularly upset about that then. This was, in fact, pre-shockwave and before cleave glyphs.

The real issue is the AMOUNT of AOE tanking that is happening now. In TBC, it was cool that some tanks worked better for some events. It made guilds show versatility and made you develop tanks of all classes. Who can forget that a Druid was better on Tidewalker or that Pally's were invaluable in TK for the birds next to Alar? There was creativity then.... and now there really isnt. Could you imagine a Paladin at level 70 running into the first wave of trash pulls in SSC and AOE tanking them?? They would have been dead in less than 10 seconds.

The problem isnt that AOE is easier for a Paladin or DK.... its that there is SO MUCH AOE tanking that it has relegated the less optimal AOE tanks to novelty. Im not saying you should have to mark up every trash pull like we did in SSC or TK, but AOE tanking is the difference between a 3 hour full Naxx clear and a 5 hour full Naxx clear. It shouldnt be this easy.

I beg Blizzard.... DONT make the tanks all the same. As a warrior tank, I understood when other roles were better.... whether it was a druid, paladin or even a warlock. Just make it so that any tanking class will offer a strength and weakness and make those advantages (or disadvantages) equally as beneficial (or uncomfortable).

Just one tanks thoughts.

[Agmar]

Change challenging shout to be a 30-40 second cooldown, 15-25 rage, straight aoe threat ability.

..and whirlwind in defensive.

[clavarnway]

..and whirlwind in defensive.

Yeah Whirlwind does so much damage when you're swinging one weapon... :/ Unless you are also wanting to change it to somehow deal damage with your Shield...ie AOE Shield Slam??

[Helistar]

Unless my math is wrong, on a target which gets hit only by swipe:

- damage = 108 + 7% of AP (usually in the 6-7K range, say 7k) = 1108

Well, I don't know what math I was doing but not the right one
7% of 7k is definitely not 1k
That final number should read 598....
The rest:

- of this, let's say the mob mitigates 25%, so 448.5.
- swipe modifier +50%, bear modifier +107.35% = 1395 Threat
- if you spam it every GCD, that's around 930 TPS.

This brings it in line with Consecrate.

[MadTanker]

I'm Posting this as a direct copy off my guild warrior forum for Pro review. See what others think. This is a long detailed AOE tanking Guide.

(Copy Start)
So I posted about this before, and I've deleted that post. I feel like it was a messy post and didn't get the point across like I wanted it to. So here is a cleaned up post with new information on warrior's new AOE tanking capabilities. This is meant to be a complete guide to a Warriors AOE capabilities.

Above all remember. Tanking isn't like other classes in WoW:
Tanking is an ART. Not a taught trade skill. Treat it as such. "Be the Artist."
-MadTanker, Tauren Prot Warrior, Beef Gone Bad. March 18th, 2009

I'll be covering:
1) Spec
2) Glyph
3) Rotation
4) Gear
5) AOE tips and tricks.
Each section followed by what I think would be most likely questions asked.
If there are any questions I did not cover to the readers satisfaction, please feel free to ask them via reply's to this topic. I check the forums everyday.

1) Spec'ing to Maximize AOE threat as a Warrior.
When duel spec's goes live, I'll be using this as my AOE tanking spec:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

Q) Why deep wounds? Isn't that a dps talent?
A) In my experience, I feel like deep wounds is a terrible DPS talent as prot. I can provide screen shots showing my total dps higher w/o it, and in the same exact gear and quarters during 2 different Naxx weeks. However I've found that for AOE tanking it can definitely add to your total AOE threat. Critical hits apply Deep Wounds. So talents like Incite, Impale and Cruelty are essential to it's up time.
Q) Your making an AOE spec w/o Shockwave, are you insane?
A) Most likely, yes I am, but people though Albert Einstein was insane too. However, while Shockwave is a high threat, high dmg ability for warriors, Cleave is better. I'll explain further in both glyphs and rotations.
Q) Anger management and Imp. Bloodrage?
A) I feel it would be misplaced to explain these here, see rotations.

2) Glyphs
First let me say, post Uldar release, this section will undoubtedly change. But for now let me state my current AOE build choices:
Majors, Glyph of:

• Sunder Armor
• Last Stand
• Cleaving

• 1) Sunder Armor Does work with Devastate, and gets more sunders out over the pull faster building AOE threat quickly on all mobs.
• 2) Last Stand This is one of my favorite glyphs. Reduces the cool down of last stand to a 2 min cool. Yes you lose 10% of its effect, however I use this and shield wall more for healer comfort than anything else. It is rare I need either cool to save my life, but when I pull 2 mob groups at once in 25 man Naxx to speed up the run, both are great for healer comfort when you start taking a ton of dmg all at once. It gives them time to adjust heals per second on you, and overall as a tank, they will enjoy healing you more than other tanks for your thoughtfulness.
• 3) Cleaving This is where AOE tanking is made. This adds a 3rd target to be hit by cleave. So when you start spamming cleave, you'll be hitting an extra target with each cleave. More on this under Rotations.

Minors, Glyph of:

• Thunder Clap
• Bloodrage
• Charge

We all know as it stands now our minor glyph selection as tanks is absurd. IMO only Thunder Clap has a "real" PVE tank use. And only for AOE tanking. Since you'll be burning rage at alarming rates, Bloodrage will be used often, and Charge will let you get to stray mobs or the next mob group faster. Situational uses like when a patrol gets to close, you can pick it up from slightly further away could also be handy.

Q) I really couldn't think of any question people may ask on this one.
At least nothing popped out in my mind, for AOE tanking these are really the only choice's, but if the reader has any I would be glad to answer them.

3) Rotation
Let me first stray off this topic to help readers understand where I get my logic.
Playing a Death Knight really changed my entire ideal of what a "Rotation" should be. Death Knights have what (at first) I thought was a unique rotation system: There isn't one. You really have to make spot calls on what runes are available at the time, versus what abilities your spec has available. Your opening may be the same each time, but once deathrunes play into the equation, you really can't rely on "One Definitive Rotation". Take this ideal into every rotation, sure there are some standards, but always remain flexible, a set rotation isn't always the most efficient rotation.

Having said that, I follow Time Stamps in AOE tanking more than a set rotation, I change my tactics and ability usage on the fly and frequently. Depending how far into an AOE pull we are.
Time Stamp 1

• Charge
• Thunder Clap (Always #1 as it both hits ALL mobs with dmg scaled to you Attack Power, produces high threat and applys Deep Wounds to mobs for additional threat when it lands a critical hit. When focused on full AOE tanking, Never Ever EVER miss a Thunder Clap Cooldown. Time your attacks so that the second this becomes available, you are using it instantly.)
• Shield Slam (To ensue this mob is mine, even in the presence of other tanks and will continue to feed me rage for my attacks, by attacking me.)
• War Stomp (When not on cool, this sets up a great pause in mob actions to toss Demoralizing shout on all mobs.)
• Demoralizing Shout (To both reduce my overall dmg taken and to provide some additional AOE threat on all mobs. Demoralizing Shouts threat does not stack (meaning if it is already on the mob, using it again will refresh it but not cause additional threat.), so using only when it expires provides you the best threat for your global cool.)

Time Stamp 2.
This is the point where I start spamming set abilities as they become available, and no longer follow a set rotation at all.
At this point, I follow a priority list, rather than a rotation. Meaning when an ability high on the list becomes available, it is used over another due to priority. That List is as follows.

• Thunder Clap
• Devastate (Higher due to Sunder Armor Glyph at this point in the pull.)
• Shield Slam
• Revenge (This is only temporarily bottom priority until Time Stamp 2 happens.

Time Stamp 3
The above list changes once "I" feel that I've giving Devastate sufficient time to apply 4-5 Sunder Armors on the majority of the mobs. I will still use this ability frequently so I do not waste time to check them, it's more of a feeling out your class thing. You just have to know when this occurs. So Priority list 2 assumes Devastate is no longer needed as a top priority, but merely to maintain Sunder Armor on mobs and to catch any that did not receive 5 Sunders.
Priority List 2

• Thunder Clap
• Shield Slam
• Revenge
• Devastate

It should be note that under this build, revenge and devastate will no longer refresh Shield Slam's cooldown.

So an early question I'm sure the reader is thinking, with everything I've stressed about Cleave, where does this happen!? I intentionally left out of the priority lists as it's use is different from those skills. Cleave and Heroic Strike are both OGC, or Off Global Cooldown. Meaning for those who don't know or have abilities like this, that using these abilities does not trigger you normal global cooldown that Shield Slam, Arcane Missle, Greater Heal or any other classes normal abilities do. So you can use Thunderclap, Cleave and Heroic strike all at the SAME TIME.

In fact, Cleave is "absolutely" unique when compared to ALL other WoW class abilities. How so? It is the only area of effect (AOE) ability in the entire game that is not on a global cooldown!

So i'm going to a list here to explain my usage of Cleave in AOE situations.
(I need a better type of diagram here if anyone can help me build one?)
When to Cleave, and how to Cleave. This can rage starve you quickly if not done right, and have Very adverse results such as you losing mobs due to top geared AOE classes pounding away while your just auto attacking mobs because you over used it and and have no rage left

• Time Stamp 1
• During this stamp, I generally do not Cleave, as rage is usually still building on the initial stages of a pull. However if we are chain pulling and rage is already high, Cleaving is recommended.
• Time Stamp 2
• Here I begin my normal Cleave usage. You don't want to go nuts just yet, Time your Cleaves with your rage bar, the "Digits" Addon is invaluable here, as it puts a movable health and rage display on the screen that I place to the left and right of my chars body. Make sure you keep enough rage to maintain your Priority lists.
• Time Stamp 3
• Here I generally have enough rage to do as I like, and spam Cleave for all im worth.

So you can see how I progressively increase my usage of Cleave as my rage bar hits a point where it's difficult to even burn it all. Scaling your Cleaves in this fashion serves two purposes,
1) To build AOE threat fast, by using it early, though sparingly.
2) to ensure the mobs continue to attack YOU and feed you rage until you can go nuts and spam it constantly.

Both the Priority list, and the Cleave progression should occur simultaneously during and AOE pull. Much like the Malygos fight, the explanation sounds much more complicated than the practice.

Talents like Anger Management and Imp Bloodrage help you produce more Cleaves and Heroic Strikes per fight, with less worry over rage. You can afford them in an AOE focused build, so pick um up.

4) Gear
I'm going to keep this section brief, as there is soo much gear to choose from out there, and simply tell you what "type" of gear I use under this build.

(Some of you already see this coming lmao.)
Block Value Gear.
1) Damage Shield causes attackers to take dmg equal to 20% of your total block value when they land an attack against you. When you have 8 mobs attacking you, this totals a great amount of additional AOE threat. Block Value also increases the dmg of your top threat ablility Shield Slam. Since you no longer have Sword and Board talent, you won't get as many total Shield Slam uses as you once did, and need to make the ones you do throw out there seriously count. My current record for shield slam is 16K and some change for a level 83, 25 man raid boss. (Thaddious record is just shy of 20k)

2) As it stands right now, I religiously strive to to stay at or just under 40% total Dodge + Parry. While Parry does generate some "small" rage, Dodge makes none whatsoever. This may be subject to change if blizzard does implement rage generation for dodge, and hopefully an increase on generation for parry. More on this if that actually happens.....

3) From stacking Block Value gear, I also passively obtained (meaning didn't seek it out) from 35-45% Block Rating, Depending on a few factors like buffs. Block isn't Avoidance, it's Mitigation. Avoidance = Taking no dmg from an attack. Block stops "some" of the dmg and still generates a healthy amount of rage. Therefore is Mitigation, not Avoidance.

4) Crit doesn't hurt your cause. Crit trinkets are easy to obtain, and for trash and AOE tanking, are ideal slots to replace for just this purpose. I wear only 1, and 25 man raid buffed, i've recorded 46% crit rating for Shield Slam. Almost 1 out of every 2 hitting for an average of 8-12K.

5) AOE Tips and Tricks
Ok to finish off a long detailed AOE explanation, I'd like to add some personal tips and tricks i've found that have shown me better numbers, and better overall performance.

1) Move.
Don't stand still during AOE pulls, MOVE!
Moving allows Cleave to pick new targets, maximizing your AOE threat.
Moving allows Glyph of Sunder Armor to pick new targets, maximizing your AOE threat.
Moving allows you to better group the mobs into 1 smaller location. Ensuring Thunder Clap hits them all, as well as Demoralizing shout.
Most of your DPS'rs are not concerned about getting to attack from behind, there simply aoe dps'ing w/o regard to the mobs facing. You can provide them some help here by moving past the mobs so that you face your team, and the mobs face you, then moving left and right to give Cleave and Glyph of Sunder Armor new targets, but that is NOT your priority. You priority is to hold the mobs with a vengeance. Don't work too hard to face the mobs to your DPS's liking.
Focus on your job--) Maximum AOE Threat.

2) Vigilance.
Know your team, know who pushes the TOP AOE threat/dps. Generally this is (For example) an Affliction Warlock while spamming Seed of Corruption. Use there threat and dps to build yours even faster.

3) Tab Target.
Swap Targets alot to maximize AOE threat on ALL mobs, not just 1. Swapping targets also lets Cleave and Glyph of Sunder Armor pick new targets for there AOE effect. I use a /targetenemy Macro, or simply pick out ones I think I haven't beat on enough

4) Key Bindings.
I have Cleave on [Mousewheel Up] and Heroic Strike on [Mousewheel Down]. While moving, and Following my Priority system, I also spam them both. So that each target I pick out, gets a Heroic strike on them, and Cleave for both that target and the 2 targets nearest to them.

5) Use the default pop up text in your interface.
This can alert you when you are losing threat on a mob before it happens. the words "Losing Threat" literally pops up over the mob in questions head before it happens, click him and Shield Slam him right away, then return to Priority List.

4) Last Stand and Charge.
There are times when charging mobs places you OOR (Out of Range) of healers. Don't make your healers struggle to keep up with you. They can't dash like rogues. If you took my advice and Glyphed for Last Stand, it's the perfect fix for this situation, and doesn't slow down your mob pull rate. Personally, I like to go fast, and don't like to wait for healers to run and catch up with me before I make the next pull. Your healers will love not having to rush to be sure your ok, they will see your hp reach almost 50K and know they have time to get to you, and will be overall less stressed about healing you.



Closing Thoughts.
To close and finish this guide, alot of my methods are based on Maximizing AOE threat, and making your healers job easier. When someone holds your life in there hands, be sure to keep them happy yes? Never yell at healers, never single them out and accuse them of letting you die. Or next time, they might do just that out of spite, knowing another tank is ready to pick it up.

I have practiced these methods since Wraith's Launch. Early on I almost gave up in this build. The theoretical numbers made sense to me, but I wasn't producing the numbers I though I should have been at my gear level back then. Now I've realized it was exactly that, Gear Level. As my gear drastically improved, the numbers started falling inline with what I suspected they would.
Mostly now I sit in a happy medium of AOE ability and Boss tanking capability, but again we only get 1 spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Also Tanks looking to maximize there stats may want to consider Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting and Professions. 3 extra sockets, and 3 special Jewelcrafter only gems like +41 Stamina, allows you more freedom when choosing gear for it's stats like hit rating or expertise, and not have to rely on high stamina gear so much.

My Signature below is representative of my trash gear's stats unbuffed, though it hasn't been updated.....ever since I made it.

If you have any questions, comments or suggestions, please post here and let me hear the rest of the tanking community's voice.
(Copy End)

Feel free to bash, applaud or just delete lol. But I hope for serious feed back on my AOE tanking methods.

[Tankingtank]

In my personal opinion, any trash build that has no schockwave is no trash set at all, you just lose to much "start aggro" at the beginning of the pull. In the guild i am in atm aoe starts nearly instantly after the first thunderclap, and thunderclap + cleave is not enouth to keep me in front of the aoe threat some of our mages can pull out of there hats.

The key in warrior aoe threat i think lies in AP, Simpley because Thunderclap and Shockwave bouth scale on AP. Apart from that evrything else gets bigger as wel, Cleave hits, Deepwound ticks ect.

The gear i use for my "Trash set" is made up out of 50% block gear not so much for the + block that is on it, but more for the + 10% / 15% more Str that is present on these items. Bindings of the Hapless Prey for instance enchanted with 38 AP, Hell i even use the Ruthlessness ring (dps 56 str i think), and the Nerubian Conquerer gun (64 ap + crit) in this set. Def rating can be droped as well to make more space to play in since trash is never higher then lvl 82.

I just charge in, thunderclap, aim a bit, Shockwave, and after the 2 sec stun pop shield block, and tab-cleave like a mad man. I even used enraged regen sometimes to generate healing aggro on my self. No need to last stand it, since you barly take any dmg during the 10 sec of shield block.

On naxx trash have absolutely no prob hollding it all together during aoe useing 15/5/51 spec + cleaving glyph. I only find it a shame that warriors have to go to such lengths in gear to stay on top when it comes to aoe, where as other classes can just stay in the same gear, aoe or singletarget.

TT

[protonly]

@madtanker - I think your post is dead on target. I might disagree that shockwave is a talent you still take if only because there isn't anything better you can get with that last point. You emphasized cleave which some people forget (not readers of this site though) and it is so important you can't mention or spam it enough.

My rotation is a bit different in timestamp 1.
1 charge
2 tclap
3 shield block
4 shockwave
5 shield slame skull
6 demo shout

Then my stuff aligns with what you said for the most part. I generally don't bother with more shockwaves unless by the time the cd is up I still got like 15 mobs on me. I use it mostly for the stun. I pop shield block so early because increasing my sbv to 2500 (not including when crit block occurs or glyph of blocking) really, really helps the healer. 4 or so mobs on you, that damage you absorb adds up!

[MadTanker]

I completely agree that shockwave is an amazing talent, th eonly reason I didnt take it is this:

1) The 3 points in Sword and board are so useful in either DW or Cruelty for Aoe spec'ing.

2) Not taking it allows 1 more free point to add to the above 3, totaling 4 points avalible.

3) I feel those 4 total points in cruelty work better towards Aoe'ing, whereas if you did get it, it would leave only 1 in cruelty, or you have to leave out deepwounds.

4) Finally, 4% crit on all melee attacks, (Spamming Cleaves / HS / Devestate) Total more threat output than SW. SW is a 20s cool, in that time, i can hit every mob in an aoe pull 2-5 times with cleave. Raid buffed as a warr tank my AP is = or close to that of many DPS, (of course we dont the dmg talents to make the most of it.) So with the crit talents, and a couple crit trinkets, TC holds threat for me with a pally tank in full 7.5 going at it right beside me. If I can beat geared pally's in aoe threat, im not worried about that mage, Toss vigilance on your "TOP Aoe Threat maker, be it a mage, warlock, or ele sham since they seem to be pushing at the heels of top aoe classes. Vigilance + The above method Pushes me to the top of every threat list. And we have alot of "Strong and GEared AOE'ers. (Many can push 6K average on big aoe pulls, and in the big aoe room in naxx 25, ive seen most of them hit 15-17K)

[MadTanker]

Sry to double post, but I should also mention with the spec I made for this, you can't get SW without the 3 in Sword and board. There fore to get SW I "HAVE" to give up a total of 4 points in Cruelty. And that I just couldn't do for a pure AoE spec.

[Etoi]

The way I see aoe tanking is that various tanks need to work together in raids a warrior paladin team works perfectly for the warrior to quickly pull aggro using TC and then the pally to produce the ticking tps. I agree that some classes have advanages in certain circumstances but that is what makes the group pull together and work as a team.

[MadTanker]

The way I see aoe tanking is that various tanks need to work together in raids a warrior paladin team works perfectly for the warrior to quickly pull aggro using TC and then the pally to produce the ticking tps. I agree that some classes have advanages in certain circumstances but that is what makes the group pull together and work as a team.

And I completely agree. Teamwork and using each class where it excels at is the best way to run any raid. My goal here is not to say 1 tank should do it all. Holy pallies can heal tank lots of raid bosses, i've seen it done. Because you can, don't mean you should. I get that.

The point of me doing this post, and several others I originally put on Tankingtips, is to show what ALL warriors are truly capable of, not what "I" as a player am. Any warrior can make the numbers I do. Were talking an average of 5700 TPS. No run of the mill pally can touch that. And i've still got gear on my wish list to aquire. Pallies in my raid group don't get any mobs on aoe pulls if I tab target. If I go full aoe rotation, and don't swap off main target mob, they can pull there single target mob, that's about it. I have to "scale myself" back to allow them tanking time. To top this off, i'm currently pushing 12th in overall dmg done, on a 1 night full 25 man Naxx clear, as a warrior tank.
MySpace | A Place for Friends
I hope that link works. That is the albam with inital and current SS's, og how my dmg has scaled with dps'ers. (In album I noticed there a little hard to read. Dunno how to fix that exept to save them and open in windows photo gallary, where you can zoom in. There actual screen shot size.)
The current ones from a group almost exclusivly geared 7.5, equivalent, or higher.
Pushing 12th in overall dmg done as a warrior tank! (while maintaing the proper stats to MT all Naxx bosses)

My goal here is to show warrior tanks are far better than most have really realized yet. We are hands down the best tanks there are, for Single target, AOE and Dmg Tanking.

Will that always be true? Probably not, and when Uldar hits, I won't always be MT'ing, Magic bosses will be tanks by DK's ect. I don't plan to always be both "the" boss and aoe tank trying to steal the show and say I can do it better because im a warrior. This is just the testing phase of my theories on warrior tanking. Just proving that build right, as of right now, Not just ME, not just Cinder or my own GM Eblog can do it better, but warriors can curently out perform other tanks in 3 major catagories: Single Target, AOE and Dmg Tanking. We already know that as far as when a tank does get hit, and does not avoid the dmg, warriors take that hit better than any other tank class, pallies a very close 2nd. And that could be considered area #4 where we excel. DK's take magic dmg better ect. and Druids will avoid more dmg (DK's a close second here) But when druids and DK's do take a hit, they take it harder and more to HP than a warrior or a pally. There dmg income is choppy and harder to heal when compared to warriors and palladins. I have been that healer, and have experianced it first hand.

In both boss and aoe builds, I see warriors as the TOP dmg tanks. Block Value increasing Sheild Slam Dmg provides this for both cases. No other tank can crit a 25 man raid boss for 16,896 with 1 attack. (My current record for any non Thaddius fight. Thaddius has capped just less than 20K, though I don't have the exact number on hand.)

This is simply putting theory tanking into practice, to show WE CAN. And will not always remain my sole tanking practice. I wouldn't wanna be a pally OT'ing all the time to a Warrior I couldn't get a single mob off of w/o taunting. It would get old fast I suppose. When duel spec's comes out, it's a possiblity we may run this way if they prefer to swap to dps spec. Thats a raid choice, not mine. But if thats what they feel works best for our team, I will run solely Boss//Aoe spec's. and MT both, having OT's swap from dps to tank spec as needed. We shall see.

[Choop]

Madtanker - you're forgetting the help reducing imcoming damamge that shockwave gives. And seriously, comparing youself to Einstien make me think you're a bit of a weiner.

[MadTanker]

Madtanker - you're forgetting the help reducing imcoming damamge that shockwave gives. And seriously, comparing youself to Einstien make me think you're a bit of a weiner.

I've never need the dmg reduction for aoe tanking. I've never died on trash because I simply took too much dmg. Even in early naxx raiding, so no, I didn't forget about it.

The Einstien reference was about the being viewed as crazy when your right, not that im comparable to the man in smarts. Don't take things so litirallry. It was a joke, tossed into a lengthy guide to break monotony bro. That you didn't understand that much makes me think a few things myself........

[Ohhnose]

Well sorry if this comes across as harsh but you did ask for serious feedback and this is just imo so no offense but:

Dropping shockwave is a really bad idea for an aoe build. It just adds so much to threat/survivability/versatility. Instead you are getting more points in cruelty which doesnt affect thunder clap your main source of aoe aggro.

Since this is meant to be an aoe focused trash spec (which is why im not whining about dropping toughness although i dont approve) improved heroic strike should be pretty useless for it, and you could think about getting iron will instead, although thats also not amazing. Having said that at a couple of points you seem to be talking about using cleave AND heroic strike at the same time (really?) which might be why you are taking it.

Glyph of blocking is an awesome glyph and theres no real reason to skip it. You dont really need Glyph of last stand.

Also your later post about some of the differences between the tanking classes just struck me as wildly misinformed (are you just making this stuff up?). Overall I think your guide needs alot of work. I'd suggest you spend some time reading up and improving your game knowledge before starting again.

[MadTanker]

No, not harsh at all. I do like serious feedback.

But allow me to explain those choices you mentioned.

1) I do maintain a heavy mitigation set, for encounters like Maly 25, and future content where the is no DBM. And this build is based on duel specs, where i'll be able to swap into a more boss focused build and gear set.

2) Shockwave is great. Im not saying anything bad about the talent. However to get that talent, I would need to spend 4 more points in the prot tree, those points come from 1 of 2 places, dropping Impale, or cruelty. Under this build, with emmense block value, damage shield creates far more threat than most realize. The extra crit from both Implae and cruelty boost cleave in a very strong way, almsot 2 of every 3 hits in a swing (Glyphed) are crits. Raid buffed I sit a bit over 5K ap, and dont have any ap gear. This is due to the high amount of str I wear to boost block value, such as the str noble deck. The extra AP also boosts TC to be much much stronger than a traditional build. The 2 abilities more tham make up for the threat loss of shockwave.

3) Cleaving and HS. I do this because I tab target and move alot. Moving gives cleave and bounceing sunders new targets to strike. And HS for a bit more threat on the target I choose to cleave on. Once Cleave and HS did there work on that target, im tab'ing to another. All the while i never miss a TC cool.

4) I take Imp HS mainly because I need to get to Impale. And its the most logical choice to get there. And your right, Irom will is "meh" at best. Since I do use HS, and this build burns rage at alarming rates, It's the best choice.

5) Blocking vs Last stand. Since I stack block value, this isnt needed for pure aoe, and last stand allows me to pull faster than healers can run. When I charge out of healer range to the next pull, I like to pop last stand to give them kind of an, "I'm ok signal." My healers are very aware of my style, and know how to read these signals now. Last Stand Glyphed isnt so much of an emergancy button as it is a curtosy to my healers so they dont panic. It lets them know "Im aware im out of range", and am taking mesures to ensure they have time to get there.

6) At this point in the game, mitigation during the aoe tanking encounters isnt much of an issue for me. I know what my healers can keep up with, and have slowly given up mitigation for dmg and aoe threat. I actually worked the Valor dps gloves into my trash set, so i can remain hit/exp/def capped, 35Khp, and still sit in or close to the top 10 dmg pushers in raid.

And last, my views on other tanking classes is just what i've seemed to notice about them, and not of actual mathmatical reseach, so to some degree "Yes, that part I did kinda make up." But I watch the other tanks in my guild, most outgear me honestly. Yet in the combat log, they take hits harder than I do. (pallies aside) But they avoid more attacks. So while I didnt crunch any numbers for that part, all i can say is: "The combat log told me to say it." :P lol


Again I ask people who read this to rember, I wear two vastly diffrent sets of tank gear. When I need mitigation, I have it. This build is asuming duel specs where I can also pop into a heavier mitigation talent build as needed. My practices also require a VERY good understanding of your healers abilities. Mal knows how im going to pull things, and I know what he can keep up with. Only once I was VERY comfortable with his healing abilities, did I start lowering mitigation for damage, and in very small incraments. to quote him:

"If I can go into saph or kt, and push top heals, yet have only 3% mana left at the end of the fight, When other healers under me had 25% or more left, I did my job better."

And he's right. He sacked just enough mp5 to last the fight, and replaced it with bigger heals. That exactly what im doing. Im keeping my mitigation to a level the healers can handle, and replacing it with raw threat and damage. Minimum required stats, with Maximum effect.

[Ringo]

Honestly IMO I just think they should give Thunderclap a lower cooldown to the same timing as the Ticks on DnD and Pally AoE. and lower the rage count, thank you

[Glorycia]

I'M just happy that they finally made Swipe 360 degrees

[Junkyard]

I say: Whirlwind in defensive stance!
Allows warrior tanks to actually do something useful with their GCDs in between their thunder clap and shockwave CDs, besides cleave and tab targeting >.>

Thats actually not a bad idea^ whats the cd on whirlwind I stay in defensive stance so much anymore I forgot?

[Aberen]

Maybe they could reduce the CD of TC and let it stack on targets like sunder. Then with every new application of TC the stack refreshes and the threat increases. (the damage could stay the same, that would be fine for me.)

thoughts?