More On AOE Threat

[Shikkaku]

Ghostcrawler

2008-12-16 10:01:02
Re: Ghostcrawler, swipe is not fun.

The change for Swipe to generate an additional 50% threat is now live. Please let us know how it goes.


I found this quote from ghostcrawler on the forum. My anecdotal evidence is true. Threat generated by swipe is modified and allows for increased threat generation on multi and single targets.

For Ghostcrawler's view on druids getting an ability like TC, don't count on it after you read this post. I would post the whole of his comments here for posterity, but there is too much information for one post.

Link:

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Ghostcrawler, swipe is not fun.

[Shikkaku]

***


Ghostcrawler



2008-12-15 14:30:37
Re: Ghostcrawler, swipe is not fun.

Right, but imagine we increased the threat generated by swipe by 400% (just for the sake of argument). Now it is possible to say:

Swipe generates so much threat that I can use Mangle, Maul, Lacerate, Bash, Feral Charge or Demo Roar without worrying about losing aggro.

I can spam Swipe, but why? After a hit or two I have more than enough threat. I can afford to save it even.

If the threat was high enough, it could have a cooldown to enforce not spamming it. (We'd be very reluctant to do this though.)

Swipe has a positional requirement which requires a little more planning or skill to use than Consecrate, but in return it generates a lot more threat.

My point above was that we are not going to make everybody happy, so you will probably find yourselves less disappointed if you don't get tied to the One True change that will fix Swipe for you.

It is very easy to look over at another character and think "Man, if I just had that ability, I could do my job so much better." That's a good thing. It means that other classes' abilities are so cool or useful that you want them. But for the same reason we are hesitant to give them to you because then the ability is less special and the classes all end up feeling really similar. If you ever switch from druid to warrior or paladin or DK, we want you to have to relearn the class. Make sense?

We want druids to be great AE tanks, and it may be that you aren't quite there yet. But we will almost certainly do it without removing the positional requirement AND adding a lot of threat to Swipe.

***

Sorry, but it looks like swipe, at least in the developers' eyes has been fixed and the positional requirement is going to maintain the druid flavor. Although if they expand the range another 5 yards it might help with mobs coming in from odd angles such as in HOS.

[Darksend]

threat swipe = stance x (damage*1.5)

[jere]

Shikkaku, ya gotta learn how to use the quote box lol. It makes it difficult to tell what is your post and what is the quote

[Darksend]

Sorry, but it looks like swipe, at least in the developers' eyes has been fixed and the positional requirement is going to maintain the druid flavor. Although if they expand the range another 5 yards it might help with mobs coming in from odd angles such as in HOS.

GC also said that druids would NEVER get a defensive ability that scales off AP because it would be to overpowered in raids and in 5 mans and heroics druids would be almost useless

whats savage defense?

[Amabar]

Swipe being directional doesn't mean a thing when you're talking about balance between tanks. Hell, with creative strategizing (read: holy pally with righteous fury?) you can easily pull any number of adds into swipes are of affect.

The thing that's so unbalancing, and what's really boggling me, is how MUCH threat swipe is. If you can hit everything, you WILL get it all. And that's in it's current iteration. I don't see how they can try to improve it when it's already so powerful when used properly.

The only real solution that would make druids more in line with other tanks would be to make it easier to use (wider angle, larger range, w/e) and nerf it's overall threat, via cooldown, or reduced threat/damage modifier.

At some point, these abilities are going to have to be homogonized to some degree. There's no viable reason to make an ability stronger but more difficult to use. I mean, how many different ways can you "hit all the mobs around you"?

[Shikkaku]

Jere, sorry for not using the text box lol, still a noob at posting on this (or any other) site. As for the Darksend's point, I see what you mean, but the overall discussion on EH and DK tanking cooldowns forced them to reconsider the damage shield in savage defense.

In my mind, there is nothing pressing about any of the classes and how they currently generate threat. The way they go about it is different, but the previous posts highlight areas where they are unique, and GC wants to keep them unique. In fact, from reading previous blue posts and the many articles on this site about the patchwerk testing, the outcry over the DK results and druid results forced the issue of nerfing druids and DK's, and allowing the damage shield to mitigate the druid nerf.

What I don't see being an issue is the old warrior issue of AE threat prior to the changes to TC and the addition of SW. Druids had that problem with swipe doing damage-based threat, but that has been corrected by the buff in the threat modifier.

Given GC's prior comments, I still don't know if there is enough disparity in threat generation or gaining/holding initial threat to warrant a change that would homogenize the classses even further.

[Finkleroy]

There are four factors that combine to make swipe irritating as the only AoE threat mechanic available to bears.

1.) Frontal Cone
2.) Targeted
3.) Melee range (to target)
4.) Buggy mob pathing / latency compensator

The fourth is by far the worst. That said, even if they changed nothing I wouldn't care too much. I manage to scrape by with swipe as-is.

On the raw threat-gen capabilities of swipe, my experiences (just mine!) go: unholyDK >> frostDK = bear > warrior. That is, until I switch into cat gear and pop some trinkets. My healers hate when I do that.

[Darksend]

Swipe: The Bear Form and Dire Bear Form version of this ability no longer has a targeting requirement and hits targets behind the druid and to the sides.

source:

WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

[protonly]

and to add to that you must charge to get the rage and who the hell knows where you will end up and which way you will be facing or if you will even end your charge remotely near the mob(s) you charged at..

And I thought that was happening only to me. "Hey guys, I'm gonna charge at every pull but I tend to lag out for a few seconds when I do so go easy until I start moving around again."

[Finkleroy]

Maybe too much, but I'll take it!

[Darksend]

WAY to much, the target requirement was enough, 360 is overkill

i expect to see a threat nerf on it now

[Shikkaku]

Swipe: The Bear Form and Dire Bear Form version of this ability no longer has a targeting requirement and hits targets behind the druid and to the sides.

So 360 degree swipe ftw? It reminds me of that looney toon, the tasmanian devil, just a whirling dirvish inflicting pain and suffering on all things immediately surrounding him lol. They would have to add some type of cooldown or threat modification per the prior discussions from the boys in blue or else there would be general outcry as being op'ed.

[Darksend]

as i said, if they reduce the threat back to damage done (which is what it was when LK shipped) it would not surprise me, adding a cooldown longer than 4.5 seconds would surprise me

part of the problem is that swipe is more threat on single target than lacerate so unless they buff lacerate as well i do not see them putting in a cooldown

[clavarnway]

It's kinda retarded, in AOE tank druids can do insane DPS. I wish I could say the same.

[jere]

Lets try to leave the whining/complaining out of these threads please. I understand the sentiment, but those belong in blogs, not in news threads.

[Fennel]

Warrior wins hard in snap aoe aggro situations - any situation where adds spawn and need to be caught immediately - for example whelps at Sartharion. A Paladin doesn't even play in the same league. Paladin wins hard in sustained aoe aggro situations - for example trashmobs in instances. Here a warrior will eventually be outclassed. No, consecration and then Holy shield does not secure aggro at all, sadly. Wish it would.

[Oiysters]

It's kinda retarded, in AOE tank druids can do insane DPS. I wish I could say the same.

Warrior dps while tanking could use some love, no doubt. They are way behind all the other tanking classes.

[Oiysters]

It's kinda retarded, in AOE tank druids can do insane DPS. I wish I could say the same.

Sorry, no edit button apparently.

I've never tanked as a warrior, if you gear for it how much of a dps threat bump can you get over your full mitigation set?

[Helistar]

I don't believe this is true. I believe in Patch 3.09 or 3.08 they added a threat modifier to swipe. I use swipe all the time now to set my aggro so high I don't have to worry about fury warriors, hunters or Dk's pulling aggro from me. Use it and check out your omen threat meter, you generate massive aggro on single targets even using swipe.

Unless my math is wrong, on a target which gets hit only by swipe:

- damage = 108 + 7% of AP (usually in the 6-7K range, say 7k) = 1108
- of this, let's say the mob mitigates 25%, so 831.
- swipe modifier +50%, bear modifier +107.35% = 2585 Threat
- if you spam it every GCD, that's around 1.7-1.8k TPS. This is not enough to deal with a high-end DPS.

Also consider that in the rotation you'll want to mangle when it's up, so you lose one swipe every 3-4 GCDs.