+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 123

Thread: More On AOE Threat

  1. #1

    More On AOE Threat

    Another update from Ghostcrawler that gives a little insight to the designers' current thinking regarding AOE threat gen:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    [blizzard]
    The benefit of Thunderclap is it does a lot of threat in one application. The downside is that if the warrior needs AE threat while it's on cooldown, he needs to use another ability (Shockwave if talented, or perhaps Challenging Shout.)

    Consecrate and DnD have their downsides too. They tick, which is nice from a hands off approach. But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

    We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)[/blizzard]
    Source
    Follow me on Twitter | Facebook | Google+

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    101
    ...if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks.
    Seriously?

    Seems like Blizzard wants us to AOE down packs even more then we already do in Naxx.

    Increasing swipes radius/arc is a good thing, but it's DPS/TPS is already fairly well balanced. Druids already can spam swipe as is, I predict a swipe cooldown incoming (probably 6 seconds like TC).

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    552
    I would trade my thunderclap for consecrate in a heartbeat.
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    941
    Quote Originally Posted by Krashtork View Post
    I would trade my thunderclap for consecrate in a heartbeat.
    But then you wouldn't have a slowing debuff O.o

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    552
    That's what my Fury warrior or feral druid is for :P

    But seriously, even without the slowing debuff, having a drop and move AoE ability would be amazing. I'm thinking being able to reliably tank whelps on 3d Sarth here.
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    552
    And before someone says it, no, this isn't a skill issue, I can do it but I chose not to because a DK or Paladin can do it twice as effectively twice as easily.
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1
    I as well would change our current one hit blast thunder clap for something that ticks. It is very common in naxx to be AOE pulling multiple mobs and have another pack come along that you need to pick up. But you are then screwed because 75% of the time you use thunderclap and shockwave Back to back and no longer have an ability, other than 3 min CD challenging shout to get them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    941
    As a warrior you have unlimited taunts for picking up the little flamers and the inital thunder clap is enough to pick up the whelps. There shouldn't be any sort of serious damage on the whelps that would cause you to lose aggro. Warriors also have the benefit of having Shockwave.

    I'm strongly against making every class have the same abilities and while Consecrate's 100% uptime is effective i would not trade it for the flexibility of DnD or the earth crushing awesomeness of Tclap.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    2
    I'm not really sure the issue here is how the abilities work, but more so that they don't scale evenly. It's really hard to say one is bette than the other in a general scenario, I can name numerous times where TC is better, even on the same fights. For example, when I drake and whelp/flame add tank on 3d 10 man TC is king for grabbing the whelps befre theydisperse and become infinitely harder to target, however holding onto them after that is difficult because Shadron lands immediatly following, and we usually have BL going or about to be going so we can down him ASAP. It can be hard in a caster based group to hold agro on all that when you have to hit TC every refresh, where as a Pally/DK can just drop their move and do their normal rotation on the drake.

    However, if I could chain thunderclap and keep up the same threat as a sitting DnD or Cons, I would much rather have the TC. But this isn't the case, not even close. I pretty much gave up on tanking any more than 2-3 mobs on Naxx AE trash when I threw on all my AP gear, charged into a one of the packs by Patchwerk, hit TC and shockwave, and had all but 2 mobs peel off me to the DK... by the time the Stun duration from the shockwave had worn off. I would like to think the reason the scaling is so far off is that if they upped TCs burst enough to makeit generate the same threat that we'd be too much of a competitive AE DPS class, but, we've had 2 weeks in a row now where our DK tank has topped the Grand Widow DPS meters by sustaining over 7k DPS from AE tanking the adds.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    261
    Tbh placing DnD litterally under the mobs feet before you are even in aggro range is easy mode compared to hitting everything with swipe. Swipe may deliver as much aoe threat for all i know, but in our guild the druid dont get to aoe tank much tbh.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    21
    I find prot warrior aoe tanking diffucult in certian scenarios. The two fights that come to mind are the Brann event in Halls Of Stone and to some extent Prince Keleseth in Utgard Keep.

    For both there is a very challenging task of picking up moving groups of adds. I think in a perfect world it wouldn't be so hard, but there is always the lag issue.

    Lag isn't too bad in most cases but there are times especially in the Brann event where you have very little time to react. Even a lag of 1 second can cause me to miss picking up the adds. At that point its a mad race to try and get everyone stop attacking and let me round them all up. On heroic it tends to get out of hand really quick.

    I know some of you may be saying my group just needs to play better. I want to get a little off topic here and say something I feel is wrong with a lot of players in WoW. I think too many people's answer to challenges in WoW is to go into it with better gear. Some of these issues could simply be solved by running them with over powered groups. But that's not a true solution. I feel that certian instances and heroics should be targeted and a certian level player, with a certian level of gear, and all fights should be beatable as long as you have a tank, 3 dps, and a healer. As people have talked about before, you shouldn't have to bring a Death Knight or a Paladin into the Brann event to have a chance at winning the fight.

    But of course we fall into the same argument about homogenizing the classes. I'm not sure what the answer is. I vote for reducing the cool down of Challenging Shout to 1 minute.

    I also think it would be cool to give warriors a spell like Vigilance but that affected everyone in your party for a short time.

    Improved Vigilance
    5 rage
    Instant - 3 minute cooldown
    Focus your protective gaze on a an entire group or raid reducing their damage taken by 3% and transfers 10% of the threat they cause to you. Lasts 30 seconds.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    10
    As a pally i think it's invaluable the chance to snap fast aggro on packs.
    i'm forced to consacrete the ground just a second after pulling ... burning my gcd and obtaining just a lil threat on mobs, so i have to use AV, bash the skull, rotate one hammer, one judgement in order to generate good aggro on a large pack of mobs (yes my guild is an aoe wore, i dont like it ...).
    in the meanwhile i'm not generating aggro great aggro on the skull... maybe there's something wrong in this rotation, but it's the only one that grand me a stable aoe threat ...
    if the skull is pulled away by healers i need to taunt it back.

  13. #13
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f56/4...tc-should.html

    I posted this thread a couple weeks ago. It has the good the bad and the ugly about this very topic. I for one, would love a reduced TC cooldown or different glyphs to increase threat/dmg or perhaps even a tick of dmg on those that got hit with tc that stays on them as they move (like deep wounds but not based on crit). I dont think every class should be the same, but why should i tank when, like stated above, a different class may be able to do it more effectivly and easier.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribulation
    However, if I could chain thunderclap and keep up the same threat as a sitting DnD or Cons, I would much rather have the TC. But this isn't the case, not even close. (...) Hit TC and shockwave, and had all but 2 mobs peel off me to the DK.
    I'm experiencing the same thing. The near immediate DK overaggro just after the Shockwave stun is just ridiculous. Having aggro for only the first 4 seconds doesn't count as a significant advantage in initial threat in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier."
    That's exactly the current situation for druids vs warriors vs DKs & paladins. If they're going to overaggro anyway, I'll let them tank it from the start. I don't want all tanks to be the same, they're already far too alike, so I'm glad the far too consecration-like Blood Bath of the WotLK Beta didn't make it to live. It's about equally lame as paladins who now got 'shield slam'.

    I say: Whirlwind in defensive stance!
    Allows warrior tanks to actually do something useful with their GCDs in between their thunder clap and shockwave CDs, besides cleave and tab targeting >.>

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by onyxtank View Post
    I find prot warrior aoe tanking diffucult in certian scenarios. The two fights that come to mind are the Brann event in Halls Of Stone and to some extent Prince Keleseth in Utgard Keep.
    Prince Keleseth is a matter of all players staying grouped around him. Picking up the adds is then trivial (and also makes dispatching Frost Tombs much easier).

    The Tribunal of the Ages event is not a picnic with a paladin tank, either (been there, healed that). The biggest actual advantage that paladin tanks have in that encounter is that they can cleanse the Dark Matter debuff off themselves (though I have yet to see a paladin who actually does that).
    Last edited by Roana; 03-11-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    I prefer TC, because when I hit something with it, it's on me. You aren't going to easily pull healing aggro from something I TC, and it's much better for picking stuff up than consecrate. In the end though, I like TC because it fits nicely with the prot warrior playstyle.

    Take Brann, for example. When new packs come, I charge them, drop a TC, then run to the new mobs and Shockwave then, zip around to a new pack, etc. TC is the highest mobility AoE threat ability. Consecrate/BB is great when mobs will be coming from a certain location, and you can count on them crossing the AoE circle. In a situation where you can't, TC is better.

    Consecrate/BB aren't better, per se, just different.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    225
    Is there that much of a disconnect between Blizzard's class designers and their players/testers that they actually think a single application does more threat then swipe? Lately our druid's swipe hits just as hard in tank gear and much harder in mixed gear, heh. Mauls + Swipe alone on my target regularly shows 3000-4000 tps.

    Wheres this large application of threat from thunderclap? I sure as heck have never seen it. And nobody is allowed to talk about aiming any special until they've had to deal with shockwave. Hell it doesn't even hit most bosses cause it is so messed up.

    I'm glad they're working on it all though but anyone with solid understanding of play mechanics could have told them all of these changes months ago. I guess they wanted to hold back until 3.1 cause of the testing buzz so hopefully it all gets hammered out. Right now I really feel as if there is no need to even be a tank if you aren't a Druid or DK. I retired my warrior cause it was depressing watching the druid pull threat off me when hes not even trying and watching druid/dk easymode Sarth +3 when I had to pull out complex guardian spirit, cooldown, and pot/pws rotations just to last long enough one time.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Síhrtogg View Post
    I say: Whirlwind in defensive stance!
    Allows warrior tanks to actually do something useful with their GCDs in between their thunder clap and shockwave CDs, besides cleave and tab targeting >.>
    Try it, go to a target dummy and ww with your tanking sword. Note the pitiful damage compared to fury/arms warriors with their beefy 2 handers.

    Then switch to d-stance and do a thunderclap. Note the damage.

    It's actually about the same. Seriously.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    552
    Yeah, I laughed out load IRL when I read, "Thunderclap... does a lot of threat in one application."

    Riiiiight.
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    352
    TC is great because it's instant aggro and enough to cover healing aggro which is great for some of the mentioned appliations. It's not that good when mobs need to be aoe'd down because the threat is not enough. Cons however isn't instant aggro but generates a lot of threat when mobs stay in it compared to thunderclap.

    You can do thunderclap/cleave which works well for aoe dps but only if mobs are giving you unlimited rage to cleave spam.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts