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Thread: Tanking Topics #4: Cooldowns

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    AD is fundamentally flawed in that as a survival "button" (and I use the term loosely), it's effect cannot be quantified. I've seen a plethora of posts over the last year where people were trying to claim it was worthless or godlike based on slanted hypotheticals... but in general the problem with AD is that in any situation where it could be leapfrogged, it becomes an unquantifiable element. Sarth breath can leapfrog it easy. If sarth breath leaves you at 4% hp, AD saves you from his melee? better than nothing, I suppose... but you're still likely to get taken out with the next melee swing.

    Step forward, WotN is ~always~ there to save you. Is this a problem? I don't think so. I find the unknown to be more frustrating/infuriating than the known in this case. I would rather deal with a guarantee than a chance, and in any situation where I know ardent defender can be consistently leapfrogged, I generally let one of the other tanks have their turn. (Momma said knock you out, Sarth w/ drakes.)
    Absolutely agree here that WoTN can't be always a 15% mitigation, it's just not tuned for that, especially with big hits. All my suggestions were to have WotN be inconsistent or a base damage or block (which doesn't scale and therefore wouldn't be an issue).

    My POV, is that Paladins don't have to be balanced around an improved ardent defender ( although it certainly is an option). Furthermore giving everyone WoTN doesn't solve anything since that changes how much damage bosses will be doing, it would be easier to rebalance WotN in the first place.

    In truth we shouldn't be talking about either of these abilities since WotN is basically a 15% passive modifer that takes a little more mana to heal from weak attacks and AD is a passive modifier that only comes into play every once in awhile. Neither is a CD.

    *Edit* On a side note I just realized -15% magice damage from FP and -15% from WotN , spell deflection, VB,IB and anti magic shell, wow where have I been all this time.
    Last edited by Ipick; 03-04-2009 at 04:39 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    Wait, hold on there. How on Earth (erm, Azeroth) can DK damage intake be too high when their CDs are down? Since 3.0.8 they have more stamina, armor, and avoidance than a warrior or prot pally, so unless I'm missing something really obvious there is no possible way that can be true, unless the implication is that everyone is too squishy.
    You're missing something really obvious.

    Warriors have a passive .9 modifier on physical damage.

    Paladins have a passive .94x.97 modifier on physical damage.

    Druids have a passive .88 modifier on physical damage.

    Death knights have zip, zada, zilch on physical damage.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    I just logged into PTR and tested. I have 27114 hp, I cast divine plea, I LoH'd myself for 26436.
    I tested it yesterday and it reduced it by half. Perhaps the new build?

    EDIT: However, it is good if they fixed that. I should hop on and test again.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    Death knights have zip, zada, zilch on physical damage.
    No, I didn't miss that; I sort of assumed all the extra avoidance (compared to everyone) and armor and health (compared to warriors and paladins) made up for that. It's not like I'm saying DKs should be stripped of their CDs, I'm just saying their survival in between them can't be significantly worse than other tank classes.

  5. #45
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    Alent, I just tested on the PTR right now.

    I have 30494 HP.

    I target myself, cast Divine Plea and then I cast LoH. It healed me for 0 and 16162 overheal.

    http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3069/...0409185235.jpg

    As a note, the higher heal is because of the the Improved Devotion Aura talent.
    Last edited by jere; 03-04-2009 at 04:58 PM.

  6. #46
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    I frankly still think this is an issue of encounter design vs class design. In a game with classes that have strong differences by design, balancing encounters becomes an increasingly difficult task.

    As we all know, most complaints come from the ability of different classes to tank a specific encounter, this encounter is designed to have single large bursts of magic damage every ~20 seconds, so it greatly favors chaining of damate reduction/absorption cooldowns. On the other hand you have one class that seems to be designed around the use of closely chained cooldowns. The encounter and the class are perfect match.

    I really respect (and agree with) the developers' efforts to avoid class homogeneization, but the downside to their efforts is that encounters become much more difficult to balance in a way that specific classes are not favored too greatly.

    The challenge of designing encounters that are balanced for heterogeneous class design is no small matter, but if it is done succesfully it will yield very entertaining encounters, where each different class is able to use their own unique advantages to succeed.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    Wait, hold on there. How on Earth (erm, Azeroth) can DK damage intake be too high when their CDs are down? Since 3.0.8 they have more stamina, armor, and avoidance than a warrior or prot pally, so unless I'm missing something really obvious there is no possible way that can be true, unless the implication is that everyone is too squishy.
    Tom, tests prove it over and over. When no CD is up a DK takes more damage then a Warrior/Paladin/Druid. The % based stance modifier on all damage is what makes the difference. The OP posts a link to some VERY well done Patchwerk dummy tests that help display this, please review the data as I stated earlier.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    No really, it's not false. Check the numbers from Xav's testing. DTPS is considerably higher on the DK and it is an issue that has been known about for some time. Of course in this case SPECIFICALLY there are multiple factors to look at, but it is a known issue. Without CDs DKs take the most damage overall. Yes they have the highest avoidance, health and armor of the plate wearers, but they have no stance modifier, nor do they have any way to "block" lower amounts of damage. Please check the data.
    Jayson tests haven't proven this over and over and over. There's very little testing beyond Xav's current work on the patchwerk dummy boss. In statistical terms the difference is too small to state with certainty either way off such a small testing sample.
    I do imagine however that Blizzard itself has done thousands of hours of tests on just this issue and that it's within the margin of error they set themselves of X%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    but they have no stance modifier
    I suggest you go and read the tooltip for Frost Presence.

    Since you're so fond of "looking at the data" let's do just that.

    An unbuffed frost presence (assuming a spec with toughness) DK tank in full naxx-25 gear has about 72% (from AC) physical damage reduction. Frost presence also provides 15% spell reduction.
    (Note 72% from our Sarth+3 DK tank - chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner)
    DK, 1000 damage physical hit = 72% armor mitigation = 280 hits the DK

    An unbuffed defensive stance (assuming a spec with toughness and improved defensive stance) warrior tank in full naxx25 gear has about 62% (from AC) + a 10% (from stance) physical damage reduction, totalling (OMG) 72% and 15.4% spell reduction.
    (Note the 62% is from my armory gear)
    Warrior, 1000 damage physical hit = 10% stance reduction = 900 damage physical hit = 62% armor mitigation = 342 hits the warrior

    HOLD ON ... the DK takes less damage OMG! The balancing occurs in blocking - it's RNG based but them's the breaks.

    The difference of block is offset by a DKs higher health pool and armor. Although warriors can critically block for up to 7k or so it's at the mercy of the RNG and a typical block of 1500 occurs only about 25% of the time.
    The difference in avoidance ... I'm not sure how to explain but I imagine it's balanced by blocking as well.

    In response to your feeling of inferiority over small hits from lots of mobs ... whilst certainly against many small hitting mobs like trash a shield is an advantage - NO ONE SPECS OR PLAYS FOR TRASH. A main tank's job is not the trash.
    Last edited by Ratholorn; 03-04-2009 at 05:13 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    No, I didn't miss that; I sort of assumed all the extra avoidance (compared to everyone) and armor and health (compared to warriors and paladins) made up for that. It's not like I'm saying DKs should be stripped of their CDs, I'm just saying their survival in between them can't be significantly worse than other tank classes.
    He didn't say "significantly", he said "their damage intake is a bit high".
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  10. #50
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    Uh, Ratholorn, a warrior in full 213 gear has around 24k armor. No way is that only 62% reduction when coupled with Def Stance.
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  11. #51
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    I have been asking myself the following question lately. If I had a DK character as equal geared as my warrior why I wouldnt just always tank with the DK as things stand inside the game today in relation to the quality and smoothness of the tanking i.e wouldnt have to spam heroic strike constantly whilst tanking a boss as one example as well as other examples mentioned in this topic.

    I hope blizzard pays close attention to this topic as it highlights in a detailed and non-whine way the grave inbalances between the tank classes as they stand especially in relation to differing cooldowns and "oh shit" buttons. I have have been thinking the same things in regards to the detrimental effect it is having on tanking in general as well as on raid groups.

    I hope, as well as many of you, that the tank abilities, particularly in relation to cooldowns and threat production are streamlined at equal potential when tanks are at the same item/gear level. Chain cooldowns should definitely be a no go area....gear level is meant to show the quality of a tank not how well they can chain cooldown using glyphs and talents pressing a few buttons.

    It would be really nice to know that the fellow, equal geared tank, be it a warrior, pala, druid or death knight was EQUAL to me in terms of all tanking aspects so we had the SAME potential so that we could hold respect for each other rather than point out why things are inbalanced or point out potential inbalances blizzard have made between the tanking classes. This is not what any of us want as we'd like to know that the right choices have been made for the future of tanking for all the classes.

    A 4-way balance between the tanks needs to me made soon to avoid constant changes being made in the future, nerfs, moaning, whining etc which will continue unless something is done to address this issue.

    It is becoming a regular occurence where I hear ppl say "get a dk tank they have grip, get a dk tank as they have the best aoe aggro etc etc" it is very worrying to the rest of the tank classes and inevitably makes us feel inferior, although that may be to strong a word.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    No really, it's not false. Check the numbers from Xav's testing. DTPS is considerably higher on the DK and it is an issue that has been known about for some time. Of course in this case SPECIFICALLY there are multiple factors to look at, but it is a known issue. Without CDs DKs take the most damage overall. Yes they have the highest avoidance, health and armor of the plate wearers, but they have no stance modifier, nor do they have any way to "block" lower amounts of damage. Please check the data.
    Without cooldowns the death knight DOES NOT necessarily take more damage from a given mob. It really comes down to how hard the mob hits as to whether or not block or pure avoidance is favored. To prove this is the case let's take a look at the physcal hit mitigation of both warriors and death knights. (Note: I used armor values from the best tanking items per slot, ignoring cloaks and trinkets with bonus armor. This example is also a bit of a rough estimate given I don't know what the base armor of a class/race is.)

    Warrior mitigation from armor on a level 83 mob:
    13444 + 7890 = 21334 armor (shield)
    21334 * 1.1 * 1.02 = 23937 (talent, meta gem)
    1 - (23937 / (23937 + 16635)) = 0.41 (59% damage mitigated through armor)
    0.4100 * 0.9000 = 0.3690 (stance modifier)

    Death knight mitigation:
    13444 * 1.8 * 1.15 * 1.02 = 28386 (frost presence, talent, meta)
    1 - (28386 / (28386 + 16635)) = 0.3695 (63% mitigated)

    For all intents and purposes the warrior and death knight have an identical worst case hit. The warrior then has a possibility to block on top of that result, while the death knight has the higher avoidance to rely on. Small hits will favor block, while larger hits will favor avoidance. In the 2 minute Patchwerk case they're certainly in the 'favors block' stage of the fight.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ipick View Post
    Absolutely agree here that WoTN can't be always a 15% mitigation, it's just not tuned for that, especially with big hits. All my suggestions were to have WotN be inconsistent or a base damage or block (which doesn't scale and therefore wouldn't be an issue).
    And my point is it can't be inconsistent. Either you can rely on it or you can't. Who wants to be the healer that gets chewed out for letting the tank get below 35% health, so that 5 seconds later when he's capped up to 100%, he gets oneshotted because WotN was down? I know, it sounds like a rediculous example, but you make it inconsistent and it doesn't work at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ipick View Post
    My POV, is that Paladins don't have to be balanced around an improved ardent defender ( although it certainly is an option). Furthermore giving everyone WoTN doesn't solve anything since that changes how much damage bosses will be doing, it would be easier to rebalance WotN in the first place.
    We ARE balanced around having ardent defender. that's why divine protection isn't as powerful as warrior shield wall. If we're balanced around it, it should be something that can't be leapfrogged. (Admittedly, Divine protection makes leapfrogs less possible, but I feel we shouldn't rely on an actual panic button to make a passive survival talent work in the first place.)

    Balance WotN by giving it to everyone, it solves our AD leapfrog issues and it evens out the non-DK classes panic button wise.

  14. #54
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    I just copied and pasted a reply I made to Xav on the test center forums, but I believe the post is applicable to this thread as well.

    TLDR: The problem is being able to chain cooldowns for (near) 100% uptime. Constant re-active use of cooldowns is a trademark of the DK playstyle and, if implemented/used properly, does not make the class overpowered. Rather than increasing DK cooldowns to 2-3+ mins (thereby effectively nullifying this aspect of the playstyle) a better solution might be to decrease their durations.

    -----------------------------------------

    I'm not a fan of constant pro-active cooldowns either, but I am a big fan of re-active cooldown usage and feel that it is a unique trademark of DK tanking that I would hope Blizzard preserves. I know that is not the message you are trying to send here (though something to that effect may be unintentionally communicated). I would be a biased fool if i tried to seriously convey that the use of cooldowns as they currently exist in the game, or rather the ability to maintain near 100% uptime on cooldowns, is balanced. However, I do think that it is possible to find the sweetspot where near-100% uptime cannot be achieved, yet DK cooldown availability is preserved such that the reactive playstyle is unaffected.

    For example, I know many guilds rotate external cooldowns in conjunction with the DKs own cooldowns for 3-drake Sartharion so the tanking aspect becomes little more than one long cooldown chaining process. My guild does not. At most I might get one pain suppression or guardian spirit. For many of our kills I didn't receive any outside help. Furthermore I have often tanked Sarth as "pure" Unholy (10-8-53, not necessarily ideal, but definitely possible) so in addition to having to re-actively use cooldowns, I also have to be careful and smart about when to use boneshield. This type of fight/lplaystyle, and others like it, is something I greatly enjoy.

    Aside from the issue of potential 100% CD uptime, many people consider DKs to be overpowered because of their unique ability to tank 3-drake Sartharion. Yet in some sense (depending on your approach), 3-drake Sartharion is very similar to pre-Wrath Illidan. Instead of sheer we have big magical breath bombs and instead of shield block, DKs use their cooldowns. In TBC, warriors, and to a lesser extent prot paladins, were also the only ones who could tank Illidan. Thus, it is not a DKs overpowered tanking ability/tank stats that makes them almost uniquely suited for this role, but their ability to respond with a "shield block"-like skill to counter Sartharion's "sheers". Frankly, I would have greatly enjoyed tanking Illidan in TBC on a warrior for this very same reason and would not be opposed if Blizzard decided to throw warriors and perhaps other tank classes a bone by adding fights where spell reflect or some other *reactive* ability gave them an edge.

    As for DKs themselves, I do think an avoidance nerf is in order. Right now 70% or higher is definitely possible. What will happen with Tier 8? 9? In addition, I think lowering the duration of cooldowns like Vampiric Blood and IBF (to something like 15 seconds, maybe 20 post-glyph, and 8-10 seconds on IBF) could be in order. Bone shield probably needs fewer charges (4 with glyph perhaps) and increase the mitigation to 25% to compensate. A slight increase in cooldown time would not affect the playstyle too greatly either.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Alent, I just tested on the PTR right now.

    I have 30494 HP.

    I target myself, cast Divine Plea and then I cast LoH. It healed me for 0 and 16162 overheal.

    http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3069/...0409185235.jpg

    As a note, the higher heal is because of the the Improved Devotion Aura talent.
    Bizzare, I did it twice... I wonder if one of the talents affects that?

    edit: I did notice that it was around 4~5% below my max hp.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    Uh, Ratholorn, a warrior in full 213 gear has around 24k armor. No way is that only 62% reduction when coupled with Def Stance.
    You should read more closely 62% from AC + 10% from Def stance (note that it doesn't come to 72% either).
    My armory is in fact full 213 gear (except head and ranged slot) and comes out at 61.24% from AC.
    Xav's armory comes out at 62.02% from AC

    To Norrath below - ya I had to edit it about 5 times because I kept leaving out important things like that - you just replied too fast
    Last edited by Ratholorn; 03-04-2009 at 05:43 PM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratholorn View Post
    You should read more closely 62% from AC + 10% from Def stance (note that it doesn't come to 72% either).
    My armory is in fact full 213 gear (except head and ranged slot) and comes out at 61.24% from AC.
    Xav's armory comes out at 62.02% from AC
    You've edited the post now, but before it said 62% AC and 15% spell reduction. It doesn't make sense to include Defensive stance in one but not the other, hence my confusion.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    Bizzare, I did it twice... I wonder if one of the talents affects that?

    edit: I did notice that it was around 4~5% below my max hp.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayson View Post
    No really, it's not false. Check the numbers from Xav's testing. DTPS is considerably higher on the DK and it is an issue that has been known about for some time. Of course in this case SPECIFICALLY there are multiple factors to look at, but it is a known issue. Without CDs DKs take the most damage overall. Yes they have the highest avoidance, health and armor of the plate wearers, but they have no stance modifier, nor do they have any way to "block" lower amounts of damage. Please check the data.

    Frost Presence - Spell - World of Warcraft

    The death knight takes on the presence of frost, increasing total health by 10%, armor contribution from items by 80%, and reducing spell damage taken by 15%. Increases threat generated. Only one Presence may be active at a time.

    What spec were the death knights for the test we saw? Did they spec into the best/most cooldowns and sacrificed more traditional forms of damage reduction to show it? Did they have Blade Barrier, Anticipation, and Toughness? Were they the optimal tank spec, or were they a cooldown spec for the test, is what I'm asking. I can't find the answer in the test post.

    And what are you talking about DTPS being higher on the Death Knight than the warrior? The WWS logs for the first 2 minutes in the test you're quoting:

    Wow Web Stats

    Wow Web Stats

    Death Knight TDPS: 3274.
    Warrior TDPS: 4447.

    This is also early on the fight where warriors are supposed to perform better than Death Knights. These stats are with cooldowns used though, so I don't understand why you're quoting these results since our discussion is about them without cooldowns? I feel like I'm not understanding what you're getting at. Perhaps I missed something. Maybe it's another test you're refering too.

    Either way we're now dangerously off-topic unless the mods don't mind branching discussions. If they're okay with it, I look forward to your response. If they're not, shoot me a private message of where I've gone wrong with the data.

  20. #60
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    remember that the def stance 10% comes AFTER you take AC, so the it's actually (1-62%)*.9 or in otherwords... in this specifica case... 3.8%

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