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Thread: Tanking Topics #4: Cooldowns

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    What it boils down to, is people are upset about the nerfs and they want someone to blame. Since tankspot posted a thread about it like a couple days before the patch, that makes them a prime candidate for the hate.
    Not realy. There was a very small time between the #3 debate and the druid health nerf aswell as the #4 discussion and the dk nerf. Blizz are listening to the communety and this is a good thing. As someone who have played alot of mmo's these changes are almost a small miracle in the way the devs are actively trying to improve the game.

    Personaly i hope tankspot was a factor in these changes. It's a good thing. The only bad thing is that the warrior voice is the largest one by far, but i dont think the devs would take every "consern" thread serioulsy if they did not have any substance.

    Also if you think dk's wouldnt get nerfed if tankspot had not made this thread you might aswell put on your tinfoil hat.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Not realy. There was a very small time between the #3 debate and the druid health nerf aswell as the #4 discussion and the dk nerf. Blizz are listening to the communety and this is a good thing. As someone who have played alot of mmo's these changes are almost a small miracle in the way the devs are actively trying to improve the game.

    Personaly i hope tankspot was a factor in these changes. It's a good thing. The only bad thing is that the warrior voice is the largest one by far, but i dont think the devs would take every "consern" thread serioulsy if they did not have any substance.

    Also if you think dk's wouldnt get nerfed if tankspot had not made this thread you might aswell put on your tinfoil hat.
    Nope. There was already a growing amount of pissitude over Sarth+3. It was getting plain as day that encounters that tested the tank's survivability heavily favored DKs and druids.
    "I played hard to avoid mistakes, but now I can play hard to capitalize on opportunities." -Arold, on the 3.0 Protection Warrior.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Well for one thing, Tankspot != devs. Tankspot doesn't get classes nerfed or buffed, and the devs certainly don't have the time to take data from Tankspot and enact a new set of patch based on comments made a couple days before the patch itself.
    Well, if you think that devs aren't reading community inputs, especially from biggest site about tanking, then you're wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    As a forum (not a set of developers) we have the freedom to compare classes in a relative matter, however, my previous comment was a response to an obviously silly comment meant to spark arguments. Coe was aiming to poke people because he/she feels tankspot is trying to nerf DK's.
    I'm a "he". My comment wasn't silly, and I'm not silly. I didn't want to make flame wars, just made my opinion (this is public forum, right?). My concern is that TankSpot is mostly focused on Warriors and mostly Warriors express their opinions in this thread. What's worse, most of those Warriors didn't tank a bit with DK.

    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    What it boils down to, is people are upset about the nerfs and they want someone to blame. Since tankspot posted a thread about it like a couple days before the patch, that makes them a prime candidate for the hate.
    Yep, it's rather normal. Every time someone is crying and someone is unhappy after nerf. And yes, DKs will blame TS for nerfs, you couldn't except anything different

    But to finish this thread, I'm sure that you're aware that you have influence on devs and that DK nerfs (some of them needed, I agree) is partly because of your benchmarks. DKs will live with those nerfs, even as huge as 10% less avoidance. The only bad thing is that they changed tanking style instead of nerfing some abilities.

    And last, but not least, I don't agree that DKs are preferred for tanking anything. DKs don't have good reputation, because a lot of DKs don't know how to play their class. They often want to dps and tank at the same time, so they mix gear and talents and nothing good comes out of it. Warrior, Paladin or Druid is always preferred, because they have bigger experience in tanking overall. And that's true, in my guild I have pleasure to raid with Warriors and Pallies and despite I may be better geared, Warrior always does great job.

    "Bring the player, not the class", as GC said, it doesn't mean that all classes are equal.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by coe View Post
    Well, if you think that devs aren't reading community inputs, especially from biggest site about tanking, then you're wrong.
    There is a difference between reading inputs and making decisions solely based on those inputs. The devs aren't going to look at tankspot's posts, think they totally missed the boat, and quickly push a change in a patch with only a couple days to do it based solely on a post from Tankspot. Shoot, the testing and red tape alone in getting those changes in would take more than a couple of days. They have already said they do internal testing before PTRs on top of that.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by coe View Post
    My concern is that TankSpot is mostly focused on Warriors and mostly Warriors express their opinions in this thread. What's worse, most of those Warriors didn't tank a bit with DK.
    If the first part of that is true than it's largely because tankspot has been around for awhile. Warriors as a class have the most experience tanking in wow so it only makes sense that a larger percentage of the most vocal would be from that class.

    I think your second comment though isn't based on much. I for one saw more than a few people comment on how they tank with other types of tanks. In my guild we regularly use warriors and paladins and dks (and at times druids but most of our bears have gone cat). This comment from you just sounds too much like a generalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by coe View Post
    "Bring the player, not the class", as GC said, it doesn't mean that all classes are equal.
    No. But it does mean they should be approximate. That might sound like semantics or quibbling but it's not.

  6. #326
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    i will have to agree with part of the comment from coe, that there is a bit of bad rep with dks for tanking but not bc of knowing how to play the class, but mainly about about the spikes of dmg. A dk can get a massive amount of spike dmg where as a warrior/pally its more even out/ironed out. me personally i thought we had the cds bc they were our only dmg mitigators besides TOTALLY avoiding the dmg <i am a frost tank, i know unholy get the spell dmg bubble/bone shield but they still have a cd> where as a warrior/pally can have the spike reduced and blocked passively. any dk tank out there can tell u of times where they were tanking a heroic and didnt avoid hardly anything in there and got beat all to crap, but then went and tanked a naxx run and hardly get touched. the problem was that dks were based off of totally avoiding the whole dmg to really survive, only problem is lets say EX. u have 60% avoidance rating, u can actually have the 40% hit u all at once for a hot min and have that 60% come inlater. i may be wrong but thats the only way i can think of that explains our soemtimes massive dmg spikes when we do have great gear and then cant avoid anything and get tore up. but to be quite honest, my opionion, they shoulda left our cds where they was gave us, but really just gave warriors/pallys quite a bit of rage whenever they parry/dodge something. then u would actually see warriors/pallys in gear to AVOID dmg instead of gear that relyed on them surviving the hits they need to tank to get the rage/mana they needed to use their cds/threat. THEN u would have warriors/pallys actually surpassign dks/druids on the fight that the xav's test was done with and warriors/pallsy would eb back up top on not only short fights but "the long drawn out that never will happen in this game" fights. and to be quite honest, thats what it all boils down too, warriors/pallsy have to TAKE dmg to sucessfully tank while a dk needs to TOTALLY AVOID the dmg to stay up, so in thatphilosophy yes a dks gonna do better, so why change him and not change the "has to take dmg" part and work with that?
    Last edited by Grifieth; 03-15-2009 at 08:05 PM.

  7. #327
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    You made some good points Grifieth. DKs have no benefits from being hit. We try to avoid as many hits as possible, because we don't generate runic power or any other resources or threat by being hit. How they want to balance tanking classes if there is such a big difference in their philosophy?

  8. #328
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    DKs generate runic power by triggering their runes. As a result there's a much more even and predictable pattern for all flavors of DK. Warriors in general suffer from oddities between rage generated from attacking and being attacked. Trust me you don't want to go down that path of being completely full or completely empty.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    DKs generate runic power by triggering their runes. As a result there's a much more even and predictable pattern for all flavors of DK. Warriors in general suffer from oddities between rage generated from attacking and being attacked. Trust me you don't want to go down that path of being completely full or completely empty.
    ^So true, druids for example have the same 'advantage' of having predictable threat because their rage is mostly generated by their own attacks. Relying upon getting hit is not somewhere you want to go and is why palys and warriors are the worst off tanks.

  10. #330
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    chaining cds has become even more interesting with the new T8 4-Bonus

  11. #331
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    Feels like a bandaid to me frankly.

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