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Thread: What improved TC should be

  1. #1

    What improved TC should be

    Ive been thinking alot about our role as warriors in raids and more importantly 25 man scenarios. Ive read a few forums around here including the tps discussion below and seems to me that my frustrations are not just mine.

    So i thought, how about an improved Thunderclap talent that, once maxed on points, would yield an ability that mirrors that of consecration.
    Or the same principle as the dk pestilence that, once speced in, throws an aoe on the ground.
    This would solve alot of threat issues regarding warriors. I for one find myself in situations where i grab a few trash mobs, tc, sw, cleave, tab tab tab etc etc only to have a pally or dk then proceed to come grab all mobs off me except for the one im currently targeting. While i have mad threat on that one mob, it seems pretty rediculous how easy it is for other tank classes to pull threat off of us with their aoe tanking abiblity.
    My solution was improved thunderclap. Instead of an instant hit to all nearby enemies...how about the thunder sprawls out onto the ground below and lingers there dealing dmg for the next few seconds to those standing in it. Increase the rage cost of tc maybe or have it tick off rage for every second its out so the ability isnt op...but an ability such as this would, imo, be the best things for warrior tanks in raid situations. your thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Making a copy of another class ability out of our ability is a very poor solution, only making things more boring. If any change is needed, why not just increase TC's threat, or make it scale better? Or, alternatively, just leave us behind paladongs and deekays on aoe threat, and make us shine on single target tps :/

  3. #3
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    I'm torn on the subject of AOE threat. On the one hand, I do find it annoying when we pull a couple packs in like the DK wing, the pally tank will end up with the entire group unless I madly tab target a few to keep them. On the other hand, I don't care all that much, since I don't have trouble against the DPS (which is all that matters), only other tanks... so if we get superior single target threat, then I'm cool with it.

    But then again, there's no way other tanks wouldn't bitch if we went back to the TBC "warrior = single target tank, others = trash/off tank" model again. And understandably so. Because the game is obviously going to be balanced around boss threat, not trash threat, the design philosophy wouldn't allow other classes worse threat on single targets; thus, I do feel we ought to get better aoe threat.

    But on the other-other-other hand, I don't like the facerolling stupidity of aoe tanking. I like it to be hard. (Sue me, populists, I want tanking to be hard, ohnoes I'm an elitist.) So making warrior aoe threat super easy would be lame to me.

    So like I said, I'm torn.
    Last edited by Forklift; 03-05-2009 at 12:25 AM.

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    I don't raid a whole lot, so I haven't run into this frustration other have.

    But my impression of why DKs and Pallies steal AoE aggro off us isn't because their spells are sustained. While it's true that we are great at grabbing snap AoE aggro, we appear to lose them once consecration / dnd keep ticking and ticking and ticking. That seems to be what you're trying to make TC into.

    But I don't think that's really the problem. Just comparing the two spells:
    Consecration - Spell - World of Warcraft vs. Thunder Clap - Spell - World of Warcraft. You'll see that the damage / second on consecrate is just plain higher. So even if you distributed TC or kept it on CD while aoe tanking you just can't do as much threat. It has nothing to do with it being bursty or a dot.

    Hengist is on the right path I think. Since looking at Consecration - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft we see that Consecration starts off doing more damage and scales faster than TC (although to be fair I don't know how much SP Prot pallies sport or how fast it scales).

    I also think he's on the right path wondering if it's worth chasing Pally / DK aoe threat. I don't seem to have problems holding AoE threat off dps classes when I tank, and isn't that the point?

    I don't know enough about DK's but from a cursory look, it seems that DnD does the opposite (less damage, but much bigger threat multiplier).

    This is ignoring all the other multi-target abilites warrior/dk/pallies have too.

  5. #5
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    I think the snap threat of TC is far too useful, even if other tanks aoe scales better is your threat good enough to keep the mobs off the
    dps / healers? the only time i see this as an issue is maby on trash that is being chain pulled and aoe'd down. Personally i dont want to see the warrior class become ez mode, i enjoyed the challenge of encounters like shattered halls as a warrior tank, it really gave the talented players a chance to shine.

    This more recent move to homoginise the tanking role has made things far easier for less committed players. You can now do the content with tanks that arent up to par with the "old" ones.

    To put some light on my argument im going to use threat as an example. Pre 3.0 threat was an issue, you had to be on your game 100% of the time, you had dps constantly on the line of pulling bosses off of you. Not because tanks back then were bad or didnt know how to properly manage threat but because it wasnt as easy, moves didnt hit as hard, you couldnt stack threat as fast or as easy as you can now.

    Threat now seems like much less of an issue. The only encounter i can think of that even requires above average attention to threat is sarth 3d. When drakes are landing the dps'ers are primed for every CD that they have, heroism goes off all the CD's are rolling the tank is watching flamewalls, void zones, and threat (which is stacking at an alarming pace) but once heroism falls off and the CD's are wearing off threat falls off the meter, tanks are going at 6ktps (or higher) everything else is miles off.

  6. #6
    While i personally enjoy a challenge too, and making warriors have to work harder to keep aoe threat is fun for me as well(as well as taking pride that i am a warrior and not a chump dk :P)... i cant stand it when i have 6 mobs on me and i keep seeing "changed target", "changed target". Now im hoping those are going to the dk ot...or the pally ot... rather than a dps or healer....it just makes it that much more stressful and i spend more time tabbing looking for target of target than doing anything useful. I personally dont think this is a "poor solution" since ever other class in the game has this same concept, but ok, i still think something needs to happen. Maybe adding more threat to the ability itself or whatever. And this is purely a aoe thread. this has nothing to do with single target tanking, cause that is not problem at all for warriors. I know what im doing and am pretty well geared. I have experience and i know how to play my tank. But i find that in alot of raiding scenarios warriors are on the bottom of the totem poll for picks for main tanks.
    That being said, thanks for replies. i enjoy discussion threads cause they can only lead to someone learning something new or sparking a good debate.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by velouriam View Post
    Ive been thinking alot about our role as warriors in raids and more importantly 25 man scenarios. Ive read a few forums around here including the tps discussion below and seems to me that my frustrations are not just mine.

    So i thought, how about an improved Thunderclap talent that, once maxed on points, would yield an ability that mirrors that of consecration.
    Or the same principle as the dk pestilence that, once speced in, throws an aoe on the ground.
    This would solve alot of threat issues regarding warriors. I for one find myself in situations where i grab a few trash mobs, tc, sw, cleave, tab tab tab etc etc only to have a pally or dk then proceed to come grab all mobs off me except for the one im currently targeting. While i have mad threat on that one mob, it seems pretty rediculous how easy it is for other tank classes to pull threat off of us with their aoe tanking abiblity.
    totally agree mate, its somewhat frustrating with the ease other tanks can do this especially when lesser geared. I'll never know why this is and why its designed like this, its very worrying and frustrating sometimes seen as where meant to be equal tanks

  8. #8
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    If I were a warrior, and wanted consecrate... I'd roll a paladin.

    If I were any non-Dk, and wanted more tanking cooldowns, I'd roll a deathnkight.

    If I were a deathknight and wanted to backhand people with a car door, I'd roll a warrior.

    If I were a paladin and wanted more front-loaded AoE threat so that mobs aren't passing through my consecrate and making me blow taunts, I'd roll a warrior.

    Grass is always greener on the other side. Be happy with what you've got =)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arvandor View Post
    If I were a warrior, and wanted consecrate... I'd roll a paladin.
    If I were any non-Dk, and wanted more tanking cooldowns, I'd roll a deathnkight.
    If I were a deathknight and wanted to backhand people with a car door, I'd roll a warrior.
    If I were a paladin and wanted more front-loaded AoE threat so that mobs aren't passing through my consecrate and making me blow taunts, I'd roll a warrior.
    Grass is always greener on the other side. Be happy with what you've got =)
    I love you.

    TC does snap threat plus an AoE attack speed reduction on unlimited targets in range plus instant damage.
    If you want it to be more like a paladins consecrate, roll a paladin.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niian View Post
    I love you.

    TC does snap threat plus an AoE attack speed reduction on unlimited targets in range plus instant damage.
    If you want it to be more like a paladins consecrate, roll a paladin.
    I'm tired of this type of stuff. "If you think class A has an unfairly powerful ability, you can't voice your concern in a reasonable and logical way on a forum. You can't offer solutions, suggestions, or concerns. You can't provide examples of it being detrimental to the game, or offer some number crunching. Instead, you should start leveling one of class A from level 1, and bring it all the way to level 80, and gear it all up, and learn how to play that class, and ignore all the other reasons why you were playing class B, just so you would benefit from one unfairly powerful ability. That way, I, on these forums, won't have to read your posts."

    Really?

  11. #11
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    I'd much rather see the tanking roles more defined personally.


    this 'bring anyone' mentality is good... but if we can all do it, why not just call us all 'tanks' give us every ability in the game.

    idk... seems to me DKs and Palis shouldn't be able to pull single target threat mobs off me... ever.

    but they can... and they can out do me in AoE threat...

    somethings wrong with that... even if its JUST enough threat to stay above them... that'd be enough to satisfy me. (also... could be my lack of hit rating... but i OT mostly so meh)
    |Kaad|Warrior|Protection|The Milk Drinkers|Runetotem|US|

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    I'm tired of this type of stuff. "If you think class A has an unfairly powerful ability, you can't voice your concern in a reasonable and logical way on a forum. You can't offer solutions, suggestions, or concerns. You can't provide examples of it being detrimental to the game, or offer some number crunching. Instead, you should start leveling one of class A from level 1, and bring it all the way to level 80, and gear it all up, and learn how to play that class, and ignore all the other reasons why you were playing class B, just so you would benefit from one unfairly powerful ability. That way, I, on these forums, won't have to read your posts."

    Really?
    You're misreading something. The whole point of the post that you were responding too was that Consecration was NOT unfairly powerful, but that Thunder Clap has its own strengths (better snap aggro, mitigation) and Consecration its own weaknesses in comparison.

  13. #13
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    Yes, so you want to turn Thunderclap, an ability that is incredibly powerful with its front loaded threat, into Consecration, an ability that is essentially an immobile low ticking dot that costs 25% of your mana pool...

    Ok, sure, can I have thunderclap then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    You're misreading something. The whole point of the post that you were responding too was that Consecration was NOT unfairly powerful, but that Thunder Clap has its own strengths (better snap aggro, mitigation) and Consecration its own weaknesses in comparison.
    That's fine. I've given my opinions in my first (on-topic) post, and I personally don't think nerfing Consecrate's damage, or buffing TC's, is really the solution.

    The point I was trying to make was that I hate the "Well if you think it's so powerful, why don't you roll a paladin/warrior/DK/druid/warlock/mage/rogue/hunter/shaman?" line of argument. It's pointless and detracts from the spirit of the discussion, which is to figure out A) whether something is truly broken, and then, if so, B) how should they change it? Telling someone, essentially, to stop talking and reroll is bad practice for this type of forum.

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    I absolutely adore Thunderclap. It's got a pretty high crit chance thanks to incite, and if you're specced with Deep Wounds, you'll be spreading DOTs to a load of mobs fairly often. Just doesn't get any more aggroliscious than that, and I wouldn't want to change it for the world.

    However... If there is a problem, and if it does compare unfavorably to other tanks AOE threat abilities, then I think the solution could be something minor (pardon the pun): change the Glyph of Thunderclap? Perhaps it could reduce the cooldown a little, so that the snap threat could be more sustainable?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlhungus View Post
    I absolutely adore Thunderclap. It's got a pretty high crit chance thanks to incite, and if you're specced with Deep Wounds, you'll be spreading DOTs to a load of mobs fairly often. Just doesn't get any more aggroliscious than that, and I wouldn't want to change it for the world.

    However... If there is a problem, and if it does compare unfavorably to other tanks AOE threat abilities, then I think the solution could be something minor (pardon the pun): change the Glyph of Thunderclap? Perhaps it could reduce the cooldown a little, so that the snap threat could be more sustainable?
    That's actually a good idea. TC actually has two glyphs; one increases radius, the other reduces cost. They could change one of them to reduce cooldown, or increase damage, or increase crit chance or something.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    That's actually a good idea. TC actually has two glyphs; one increases radius, the other reduces cost. They could change one of them to reduce cooldown, or increase damage, or increase crit chance or something.
    I'm full of good ideas.

    Changing one of the glyphs to something that increases the crit chance of thunderclap would be fantastic also. In fact, greatly so, because it would spread significantly more dots through deep wounds, and compete that little bit more with the ticking AOEs of Paladins and Death Knights.

  18. #18
    yes. forgive me for bringing up the topic. I guess im just not as profesional as some. I for one think TC is fail. Debuff is great. But for use in aoe tanking=fail. (as it is) U can talk about snap dmg or burst....meh....i dont see it. (Or at least not enough to sustain aggro.) I have the reduce rage cost glyph, the bigger radius glyph, all talents in it that i can get, deep wounds..etc...and i spam the crap out of that ability...and yet an undergeared tank can easily pull all mobs off me(except for one) with one dnd or consecrate.
    And as for "rerolling" a paladin....wow. Im not saying i dont like playing a warrior, this is just one thing i personally get frustrated with. And the consecrate type ability was just one idea...not the whole purpose of said thread. I'd be totally down for a better glyph...or higher threat/dmg. Simple discussion since i fear our usability in raids.

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    Love the glyph idea. The "I like it hard" tanks can skip it and be happy.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    The point I was trying to make was that I hate the "Well if you think it's so powerful, why don't you roll a paladin/warrior/DK/druid/warlock/mage/rogue/hunter/shaman?" line of argument. It's pointless and detracts from the spirit of the discussion, which is to figure out A) whether something is truly broken, and then, if so, B) how should they change it? Telling someone, essentially, to stop talking and reroll is bad practice for this type of forum.
    There have been many discussions of late about how X classes abilities don't match up with Y class.
    The simple fact is that the classes are designed to be different.

    If you want my "serious" thoughts on the OP's post then sure.

    So i thought, how about an improved Thunderclap talent that, once maxed on points, would yield an ability that mirrors that of consecration.
    Thunderclap =/= Consecrate.
    If Thunderclap was given an AoE effect, then Paladins would rightfully call for Consecrate to be given an AoE debuff affecting attack power.

    While i have mad threat on that one mob, it seems pretty rediculous how easy it is for other tank classes to pull threat off of us with their aoe tanking abiblity.
    Given enough of a lead yes, consecrate and other Paladin attacks (hammer+shield) will give us enough threat to keep the mobs hitting on us instead of swapping to the DPS/warrior using TC. However I have seen many fights where mobs are instantly picked up and held by a warrior, only jumping to me if I use ShoR and focus on one target, or if I hammer then AS. Consecrate isn't as OP as you'd like to think, more often than not threat is pulled off the paladin by DPS/Tanks unless the mobs have been sitting in Consc for a while.

    Increase the rage cost of tc maybe or have it tick off rage for every second its out so the ability isnt op
    Not sure about you, but with higher geared tanks I see a lot of rage starved warriors running around when it comes to AoE trash. I know that the druid tank I run 10mans with often has troubles holding threat on packs of mobs due to the fact he isn't building up much rage (could be gear dependant or whatever, but he does have mobs hitting on him).


    The abilities are different for a reason, having multiple classes with the same abilities, doing the same job is pointless. Each class needs it's own ups and downs, as that is what makes a class.

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