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Thread: TankingTips.com - Podcast #7: Return of the MT

  1. #61
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    While I agree that two varieties of protection specs prove a great degree of preparation and determination, my personal decision was influenced by the content we face every week:
    Plenty of single-tank encounters. We take 3-4 tanks per raid. Our bosstank is announced just before the pull.
    While not tanking, the choice will be doing a lousy job trying to dps in a prot spec or swapping over to a dps spec and making myself less of a burden and possibly adding enjoyment to the fight.
    Therefore my choice will be prot/dps. And I believe it will work out much better for my situation.

  2. #62
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    I liked the podcast Vene, while I'm still not convinced that Protx2 is the way to go, I do appreciate bringing back the pride in being a main tank!

    Honestly, I dig the elitism. I have zero issues with elitism what so ever, so long as the person is in fact elite. I do consider myself a good player, I do consider myself an elitist, and I don't really care that much if people take issue with that or understand why. Maybe it's a biproduct of the age of political "correctness" when you can win trophies in little league even if you lose every game miserably. But hey, we're all "winners" right? Gag me.
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  3. #63
    Wouldn't really make much sense to take 2 bear specs. The only tempting situational talent is the stun/fear damage reduction one, and we've only seen one (easy) boss stun/fear the tank.

    On the issue of "who does the raid want tanking X boss": even if the answer is you, it isn't necessarily a good thing. Maybe they want that person tanking because he only does 1/3 of the dps the other tanks put out when they are called on to dps.

    One way for a tank to stand out is to give a lot of the dpsers a spanking on the meters.

  4. #64
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    "One mob, and you just stand there and get the crap kicked out of you".

    Lets get rid of that Blizzard, 1:1:3, 2:2:6 2:6:17 is not the right progression path, it can be done, Council, Maulgar, Kael'thas, Al'ar, VoidReaver (until you got enough gear), Hydross, etc all had multiple main tanks, the Main tank on Sartharion is the add tank (Sartharion himself is pretty much a "can be voidwalker tanked" fight, the drakes get pretty dull as well).

    The idea of a main tank cannot disappear until Blizzard stop making fights where the whole plan is 1 tank does the job, and its easily possible to make a whole expansion favouring 3tanks per raid or 3+.

    Main tank confidence and having a main tank isn't true, heck my last raiding guild we didn't have a main tank either, this one we have myself and a Warrior who fit the MT mould, and again in my previous we had myself and a Warrior who fitted the mould. Being an MT isn't always about doing the MT job, but rather about stepping back to let others do it, the guild might want you to tank that scary dragon, but your job is to make the raid work, and if that means putting someone else out there to do it, either because they are better mechanically (gogo DK on sarth), or because they need the experience then thats what a MT should do.

    Especially as RL as well, it is often better to take a lower stress position (where missing 1 threat rotation doesn't make your locks start seeing red) so that you can watch the fight more, High King Maulgar for example the MT / RL normally took Maulgar not because he was the hardest to tank but because it lets you do your job. I have been in Maulgar tanking Maulgar, the Lock, the Mage and the Shaman at once (we killed all but the mage and Maulgar... then the melee decided to go attack the mage), but its not a job I would pick as MT, I would rather have people suitable for the task doing it, and making it easy. Same thing has happened more recently on Illidan (Why put a warrior up there and risk sheer when a Paladin could avoid it completely), or even fights like Patchwerk (I have seen guilds put their best tank as MT rather than as the two OTs, simply because its the MT role, and it is typically a bad plan, because when the stuff hits the fan, the MT dying isn't bad, the OTs dying is).

  5. #65
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    This podcast is amazing, you truly said, what it is to be a main tank. Myself, i was dps all the way till 70, and than on my first Kara raid, i received about 4 tanking epics, as no one needed it, Raid leader just gave them to me, incase i'll ever be tank. Actually after that day Raid Leader, who is my good friend, every day was telling me to try tanking, as he was tank himself and he needed off-tank, as other guild tanks were away on vacation or something like that. So i tried...it was a long journey to gather all nessesary gear, to understand what it is, to be a tank, to learn why this spec is good and other is not so, etc. I read tons of information, i talked to many tanks, i was ansking thousands questions, i inspected every tank i saw. And i loved it, i found that in my heart, i always was a tank, and it just...when right moment came, i truly found myself...and i still love it, tanking is not just something you do in game, tanking is something more, it helped me to be more confident. I just had amazing transformation since that moment when i became tank. Yes it was hard, i had many "fail" moments, people were sceaming at me, as i was a noob tank...but i wanted to be better, always, not just good, but be an amazing, to do everything as better as possible. When i started to tank i even wasn't a group leader in dangeons, i was kind of afraid of responsibility. Yes, it was long, hard, and extremly interesting journey. After all i became a main tank, and when i heard from people that they want to go to heroics with me, when they want me to be in raid, when they were telling to me that i'm a great tank, that is a great reward for me, to know, that i can tank, that i truily can be who i am. And still, i know that i can be better, i want to be, i want to learn more, and i want to know everything about tanking, i want to try different combinations of tanking builds, and i know this journey will never end, and i will try to be as better as i can. I love tanking, it is true pleasure for me, hehe And when i heard your podcast, it even inspired me to be more And about duel spec, think i will take arms
    And about best tanking builds, well, its all about what we like, and how we use our abilities, every tank is unique. By present build might be not best build, but do i care..no..i love my builld, and if i will find that i want to imporove it and will find how i can do it, i will. Actually i already know, but will do it after patch

  6. #66
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    and word on the iTunes feed?

  7. #67
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    I have to admit, while I do agree that some tanks can go the (slight) extra mile of preparedness by using their secondary spec to be an alternate tanking spec, I definitely was laughing my ass off during about the middle third of this podcast.

  8. #68
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    As many have suggested, having 2 tanking specs really isn't an optimum way to go, especially if you have 2-3 (or even 3-4) dedicated tanks of varying classes in your guild. The reason I say this is because at any given time, especially for warriors, your class will not be strong at tanking any given situation not because of your spec, but because of your class mechanics.

    We've had a lot of different encounters in the game so far, each requiring a varying number of tanks, and a few encounters favoring a very specific type of tank. The easiest example to bring up are encounters with one tank fights. Which tank is going to go in there? If you have two tanks, a warrior and a druid, and the fight is high magic burst, it doesn't matter which spec the warrior is, the druid is preferred, thus making the warrior a burden to the raid since he very well can't DPS effectively in either of his two tanking specs. I'd like to believe that Blizzard will eventually balance the tanking classes, but it certainly won't be by the time 3.1 hits!

    As tank captain of my guild, I'm going to have a lengthy discussion with my tanks about the type of tank service they want to provide to the guild, and then have their tanking spec customized to serving that role for the encounters we're going through. When they're not needed in tanking responsibilities, then they must DPS effectively. Even now, I'm very hard on my tanks when they have a sub-par DPS set. One guildie joked over vent once that one of our tanks was doing such low DPS that he was healing the boss (I lol'd) but come progression time, we can't afford that kind of sub-par performance, and it'd be a hard argument for him having 2 prot specs and wanting a tank when it's clearly an encounter suiting a druid tank.

    tl;dr, I think if you have two tanking specs, then you are nearly worthless in encounters where you are not tanking. Being replaced for tanking for specific encounters is a given with our current unbalanced tank classes, so it's always better to be prepared to step down.
    Stay strong. Stay smart. All heart.

  9. #69
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    Well, I listend to the first 10 mins, and it seems like you are making the same point over & over in different words: some tanks take more pride than others, so those tanks should be MT. Are you not preaching to the converted here at TS? Those sentiments are so much a part of my tanking mentality and many of the good tanks I know. So given that's the case, what do you do in a very common scenario when you're top guild has 3/4 tanks all equally committed and talented? What else can you do except dual spec to dps?

  10. #70
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    Thanks, this has made me think about the dual specs...
    what would those 2 prot specs be? (links?)

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

    I didnít want anyone to get the impression that youíre a bad tank if you donít go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. I do want you to realize though that there's more you could be doing.

    We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if youíre an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that thatís not going to change and if youíre in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too.

    That being said, I do think you lose a psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank which is really what the whole podcast is about.
    Being the MT is a state of mind as someone that has gone though several guild break ups and such and been forced to find other guilds I find that in short order I quickly move from low man on the tank roster to MT. Dedication and skill show though quickly if people are paying attention. Even though some of our new tanks are starting to out gear me because I have been supporting the guild rolling my healer to fill healer spots I'm still the go to man when something needs to be done and our other tanks are not cutting it.

    Sure by rolling my healer I'm not improving my tank gear when I could be but that would accomplish nothing as the guild would have 6 tanks standing to do naxx and be short 2 healers as it stands our 3 best tanks are taking a back seat to get the raids done my alt is healing, our pally has respeced holy and our DK is dps spec.

    In the end the guys we have doing our tanking atm still come to me for the gearing advice, tips on what they could do better, etc. To me that is being the MT. The day we have a surplus of healers you can bet i'll be rolling my tank and showing some of the tanks that are relying on gear at this point what a tank can do. There was a time when tanking stuff was hard and people still remember when I was aoe tanking as well as a pally back in 2.x as a warrior.

    AS much as gear plays a roll in this game skills do still show, the first raid guild I was in on wow recuited me out of a heroic in bc when I was wearing mostly blues (I had just turned 70 a day or 2 earlier) because they saw the level of play I brought to the field and knew it would only get better with gear. Things havn't changed that much people still can look at the player and see what they do and unfortunitly some peoples feelings get hurt because lesser gear playerX is chosen to MT over the better geared playerY because the guild knows playerX will get the job done and smoother.

  12. #72
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    Two remarks :

    First, think that struck me when blizzard announced a double spec, was why 2 ? why not 3 ? Once they have the multi-spec mechanism implemented, they have the hardest part implemented, allowing more specs only 'costs' some storage space on servers, and setting a price for each spec beyond the first would ensure some degree of control over this space.
    So why do they restrein it to 2 ? After all, we all have 3 talents trees, the roles in raids are generaly divided in 3 (tank-heal-dps) so 3 seems to be the 'magic' number ? It would also reinforce their moto 'bring the player, not the class' to an even more potent 'bring the player, not the spec'.
    In fact i can imagine on 'good' reason for the 2 spec only : druids and paladins are the only 2 classes able to apply for the 3 roles, meanwhile rogues, mages, hunter and demonists can only apply for the dps slot. Maybe those classes would feel too much disavantaged and would reroll paladin or druid. I am one of the lucky ones to have a druid reroll, that i allready use to dps (moonkin) or heal easy fights. I think beeing also able to tank with my druid with only one click would make me shift from my war to my druid as main character. And i would be VERY sad about it.

    Second, I MTed most of the content since MC, and while my guild never was close to the bests, I allways tried to MinMax my character. My feeling is that i only need one Tank spec : the one for the current progression figth. The typical Wotlk example would be the improved spell reflect for malygos. I felt this talent was mandatory for the first kill, maybe the second, but a few weeks later, the progression figth was sartharion +add, and a respec for this figth excluding spell reflect didn't make further malygos kills harder.
    So in my experience, the need for min-max template is only crucial for one fight : the current progression one, for other cases, we allready switch gear and i feel it sufficient. So my second war spec will be DPS.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molloy View Post
    and word on the iTunes feed?
    I am also waiting on the iTunes feed. Can we be expecting that soon?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grymauch View Post
    I am also waiting on the iTunes feed. Can we be expecting that soon?
    I don't know how to link iTunes feeds, but if you search for tankingtips in iTunes it'll come up with my podcasts.

  15. #75
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    I think, as others have mentioned, that the post does come off as slightly arrogant. But I think the real issue is: you're conflating an in game role (tanking) with a group dynamic role (leadership). To be sure, there is a certain amount of overlap with the two as the tank is the one seen as most 'in control' of a boss encounter. Thus the people most attracted to leadership are likely to be attracted to the tank role (how many GMs are also MTs?). But the two are not necessarily the same; it's just as easy for a healer or dps to take upon the mantle of authority you associate with the 'MT' concept.

    You also address the idea of excellence with "if I go down, I want other people to question what they did wrong, not what I did" (which you also slightly conflate with the notion of MT). This is not a uniquely tank quality, it's very much a personal thing. As a DPSer, I want the same thing, no one should say to me "oh we failed because you didn't put out enough damage to beat the enrage", or "you were dead for half the fight". When I heal, I still want the same thing, no one should die from my neglect. People also strive to be the most useful to their guild, as many have said, they sacrifice personal min/maxing (2 tank specs) for overall raid min/maxing (serving another role when appropriate).

    So in summary the mentality you associate with the idea of 'Main Tanking' is not so much about the tanking as it is about being a key player, both in terms of leadership ability and personal skill. This is often conflated but it is not necessary to be the MT or even a tank at all to be the one leading your raid, keeping the morale up, or just impressing everyone with your excellence. Your character's specs/glyphs don't determine if you have what it takes to be a 'Main Tank', it is that attitude that you, the player, bring to your guild and raids.

  16. #76
    Having reflected on it some more I have to say that, although your podcast is inspiring Vene, I disagree completely with tank/tank specs.

    In WLK, all tanking (and healing) classes are hybrids. Dual specs make it practical enough and cheap enough to fully develop two roles for your hybrid characters. Very soon after 3.1, being a master of both your tank role and your other role, be it healing or DPS, will be a universal expectation. Refusing to do another role because you don't like it, or sucking at it for lack of practice or gear, won't be acceptable.

    If you're THE tank because of the history of your guild, good for you, but you need to recognize it for the perk that it is and consider whether you want to hold onto it. The way to make the maximum contribution to your raid is to be a master of two roles. More importantly, if you are also guild leader or officer you have no option but to be a master of two roles, because you'll have to demand no less from your members and recruits.

    Those who are raiding with a hybrid class and see dual specs as a freebie, it isn't. It is a responsibility, in the same sense as flasks and potions were your responsibility in older raiding. You will be expected to master two roles. If you're a raiding shaman who doesn't heal, or a druid or pally who can't tank, or a priest who can't DPS you'll have trouble applying to guilds over warlocks or rogues, not because pure classes are necessarily better at their roles but because a player who doesn't master their class will be seen as one unwilling to master the game.

  17. #77
    If your really leet you could be the "mt" with one tank spec and you could also be the "topdps" with one dps spec. Old school style. Calling yourself an elite "mt" just cause you have two prot specs dont mean crap. Now im sure we will see numerous tanks out there that suck at tanking with two tank specs thinking they should take top priority over someone who has tank/dps duals even tho the tank/dps dual specced guy is much better tank.
    "mt" to me should be defined by play style/skill...not something like speccing two specs in prot. Very opinionated preachy podcast.

    That being said...i dont think this is a bad idea(and do appreciate the time spent on the podcast)...and has good usability in raid scenarios...and dare i say this rule would apply more so to dps and heals. And if we are talking about the "mt" idea being the leader and the guy ppl look to for survivability and to get them thru a fight...ok...but ill call that guy the leader.

  18. #78
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    You're inflating the 'Main Tank' position artificially, at least in my opinion. When you say 'Two Prot specs', the thing I, personally, am hearing is 'one trick pony'. So you and your guild consider yourself a master Tank. Great. Every guild needs at least one. But then, what else can you do? Are you willing to put in time, effort, and energy into mastering the DPS side of things, or to become a solid healer?

    What you are describing, at least to me, is being a great leader not so much in the raid organization level, but rather in the personal performance level. You set the bar so high that nobody even questions you did everything you could do to make an encounter succeed. However, that kind of excellence and dedication is not the exclusive property of tanks. Tanks do have the more obvious show of having fairly obvious and flashy demonstrations of when they fail. They often (but not always) are the lynchpin of whether you attempt or fail at any given encounter. However, in my mind, it takes even more dedication to learn how to do another role and excel at that on top of tanking. You can still be the "go to" guy for serious content, but it should very well be put that you contribute more to your guild if you can swallow your ego a bit about the whole raid being centered around YOU, and let other tanks who may be more suited to any particular task have their moment to shine. At the same time, you can go to your dps spec/set, that you have also min/maxed appropriately, and spank the dps who aren't quite where they should be.

    Situations change for everybody. I know that with my guild, we were stalled for a long time on Archimonde for a LONG time because both of the long term prot warriors in the guild had circumstances that precluded them from raiding for a period of time. At the same time, we had three tanks (me as a feral druid, another feral druid, and a prot pally) who have all shown to be solid reliable tanks, but at serious disadvantages to that fight. I remember fighting desparately for months for a chance to prove myself as a solid tank, and pushing to tank some of the encounters that Feral Druids excelled at. Finally, though, through shown persistance and proven dedication, I had shown that I had what it takes to do the job.

    Since then, those prot warriors have sadly either left the game, or scaled back their playtime. We also have had new tanks come in, including one of our rogues reroll as a DK to become a tank. We have a very solid (if somewhat bloated at times) tanking core in which we have the luxury of being able to pick and choose which class is ideal for any given encounter. The downside of this, though, is that we're often having ~3-4 tanks sitting in the raid when they're not tanking (even for fights like Malygos). I know that I, personally, shifted my priority from being a bear to being a cat. However, there are still times when, for the good of the raid, I have put on my bear suit (which while not recieving the focus of my cat suit, was still maintained to be very solid), and stood up in front of the boss when needed. I remember our first couple times at Patchwerk, when the damage he dealt wasn't trivial to keep up with. I was cat for those several attempts, where I ended up eating hatefuls because our OT's died. The next day, I came to the raid in my bear setup, and PW turned into a two shot. The guild knows I can be called upon to do what I need to do, when I need to do it. That, is proving leadership in ability.

  19. #79
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    ummm

    Why always ppl talk about fury dps (pve ofcourse) warriors ?
    I'm dps-ing in arms specc with only 8 talents in fury tree and i'm doing outstanding damage ... Any1 else agee with me ? Since we do have a "small" chance to execute whenever ... Doing 15-17k crits on execute lifts u way up in the damage meter .. So my dual specc will be prot/arms ... Have a good day guys ... Waiting For your replies

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidro View Post
    Why always ppl talk about fury dps (pve ofcourse) warriors ?
    I'm dps-ing in arms specc with only 8 talents in fury tree and i'm doing outstanding damage ... Any1 else agee with me ? Since we do have a "small" chance to execute whenever ... Doing 15-17k crits on execute lifts u way up in the damage meter .. So my dual specc will be prot/arms ... Have a good day guys ... Waiting For your replies
    Most people will automatically associate Fury with DPS as it, in general, does better than Arms in a PvE setting.

    Now, that's not to say that you yourself don't perform better as Arms than as Fury, or that you enjoy Arms more. Half this game is finding the spec that you enjoy the most and utilizing it to the best of your abilities. If you enjoy the DPS style of Arms over Fury I say more power to you. Not everybody likes vanilla, not everybody likes chocolate. Go with what suites you best.

    As for the Podcast, I have to agree with csdx that many of the qualities you were talking about would have been better attributed to being a leader more so than being an MT. Yes, many MTs tend to be the leaders of guilds and raids, but there are also healers and DPS that take up the mantle of leader who exemplify many of the same qualities you attibute to those, for lack of better wording, pure MTs.

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