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Thread: TankingTips.com - Podcast #7: Return of the MT

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assist View Post
    The very post you referenced details stepping down as a main tank sometimes. I disagree that having a "main tank" gives a psychological advantage. Having a clearly defined MT gives a very significant disadvantage when that tank is not available for a raid. What happens if that tank quits? or leaves the guild? You quite possibly just lost weeks of progression. Your guild should be able to trust all of your tanks. If not, then your tanks need more training, or they need more time actually tanking.
    I think the problem here is that he's using "MT" in a way that it wasn't designed to be used. Main Tanks are generally considered the guys who stand in front of the dragon every time, and does the most Boss tanking. He's talking about the guy who keeps the morale of the group intact, and gets them through the mess time after time. It's one thing to say people should not have to rely on one guy for this, but that's sometimes unrealistic. I spend a lot of time on the healer role now, since that's what the guild needed. It's not uncommon for me to get whispers from people if things aren't going well saying "I'd feel a lot better if you were tanking this." It's not even that the guy is doing it wrong, because he usually isn't. When I step into the role I take command and God help me if I'm going to let a 40ft tall dragon stand between me and the gear I'm about to pick off his corpse.

    I think there's a conflict between the community on what MT means, and that's why you're thinking this way. He's not suggesting you put all your eggs into one basket. He's suggesting that most groups of people have a favorite basket they like to put their eggs in, and now we have new ways to make that basket even better.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assist View Post
    Calling tanks who do not use two prot specs mediocre is highly arrogant and unnecessary.

    Warriors are in fact tank / dps hybrids. If you cannot effectively turn into a fury warrior in a time of need, You are not filling your potential. I do not recruit tanks in my guild who cannot dps, and likewise, I do not recruit fury warriors who cannot tank.

    There is too much variance in fights to allow people to focus exclusively on one aspect of their class.

    Malygos is a 1 tank fight. (2 if you want to be lazy with adds in P2). We have 3-4 tanks available on most given nights. I'd rather have tanks that can convert into fury warriors and ret paladins than tanks that can turn into tanks that are 5% better for a certain fight any day of the week.

    You can always drop the 50g and respect your tank side into improved spell reflect or whatever the gimmick talent for the fight that you are working on is, when you are actually working on that fight. Once you've learned the fight, imp spell reflect is not nearly as necessary, and a standard tanking build will be fine.


    TLDR: In the course of one night of raiding, we have a lot more changes in number of tanks required than we have need for tanks to refine their glyphs and talents to optimize for a certain fight. Having tanks that can swap to dps specs and glyphs at the drop of a hat is far more useful in most situations. If you are a tank who cannot respec to fury and perform competitively, you are not doing your job.
    i honestly don't feel that when you pick up a class you should master all specs. i mean i enjoy tanking so i stuck with it i've never had an interest in dps i can't imagine forcing say a druid to be able to dps tank and heal on the fly for whichever is needed.

    i feel you should be allowed to play the spec you enjoy and not forced to spec into something else just cause you're capable of it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bung View Post
    Could you please please please list the abilities you would have in both protect specs? Sounds like a good idea. I just want to pick your brain on the two specs and what situations they would be used.

    Bung
    Bung, I'll bet he'll have the standard 15/5/51 spec and his UA spec will look something like this. This is, of course, assuming that the trees don't change around in 3.1. It's also worth mentioning that if you don't use an axe you shouldn't put 5 points in the axe skill :P.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    Bung, I'll bet he'll have the standard 15/5/51 spec and his UA spec will look something like this. This is, of course, assuming that the trees don't change around in 3.1. It's also worth mentioning that if you don't use an axe you shouldn't put 5 points in the axe skill :P.
    I would think you'd be better off with a UA spec for bosses and a piercing howl/imp cleave build for trash?

  5. #45
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    left my comment on tankingtips already but re posting here

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    EXCELLENT vene, absolutely amazing

    i made a blog on tankspot a while back during sunwell about how there was no such thing as a main tank anymore, but that everything has because a tanking squad or tank team, but you are absolutely right, just because you are not the one standing in front of the dragon does not mean you are not the main tank. look at sarth, EVERYTHING this expac comes back to sarth 3d so far /sigh, i would say that the person actually tanking sarth is the least "main tankish" of all the tanks in the encounter, the drake tank is a main tank in the sense they are trusted by their guild to keep agro and make sure its positioned properly etc to make sure it dies before the second drake spawns, the whelp/fire add tank is a main tank in the sense that they are trusted by the healers to get everything off of them and not let them die, to properly kite the adds so they do not get hit by wall and enrage, to not turn thier back and get insta-gibbed with no avoidance, the sarth tank just stands there and moves maybe 5-6 times and hits cooldowns when needed not even attacking because if they did they would kill themselves and cant attack because the boss is immune

    as a druid there are 2 tanking specs but the other one is redundant because we always have a frost DK (redundant in that you lose 4% damage for the druid thunderclap) so for my druid i never intended for my dual spec to be anything but a cat spec

    for my warrior, i have had for the past month my 2 specs picked out and never ever planed on being anything but 2 prot specs

    i am actually quite surprised at that poll

    Are you going to use 2 Tanking Specs come Dual spec time?

    * No (45%, 104 Votes)
    * Yes (41%, 96 Votes)

    i agree, i could probably use 3-4 specs for prot especially with the new glyphs coming out, just like the old adage when asking which item was better the answer was always "gear for the encounter" well now it is "spec/glyph for the encounter". just like some warriors every maly would reglyph for a single fight then swap it back as soon as the boss was dead, its that kind of dedication that will make you a main tank for your guild



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thad View Post
    i honestly don't feel that when you pick up a class you should master all specs. i mean i enjoy tanking so i stuck with it i've never had an interest in dps i can't imagine forcing say a druid to be able to dps tank and heal on the fly for whichever is needed.

    i feel you should be allowed to play the spec you enjoy and not forced to spec into something else just cause you're capable of it.
    We might have to agree to disagree then. We tend to have a few more people wanting to raid any given night than we can actually take. We are required to have 3 tanks for some fights, and 1 for others. Some fights we can do with 2 healers, some we need 6.

    Next time we see a fight that requires 1 tank and has an enrage timer we may or may not be rushing to make, then who is wisest to drop? The specialist tank who can only tank, or the warrior who can both tank and dps effectively? The same goes for healers. Bringing 6 healers into naxx is overkill for 80% of the fights there. Having healers that can swap their gear / spec and be able to speed up the raid is extremely valuable.

    If naxx is an indication of future raids, I'd structure my raids something like this (this is just quick thinking, I might adjust if I ever really have to make up such a roster):

    1x Full time Tank / Clear leader. Subspec focused on threat and damage.
    2x Prot / DPS
    2x Full time Healers
    4x Healer / DPS Hybrids

    16x dps (Specs irrelevant to discussion)

    When I handle recruitment for our guild and for raids, versatility is a very hot commodity

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assist View Post
    Calling tanks who do not use two prot specs mediocre is highly arrogant and unnecessary.

    Warriors are in fact tank / dps hybrids. If you cannot effectively turn into a fury warrior in a time of need, You are not filling your potential. I do not recruit tanks in my guild who cannot dps, and likewise, I do not recruit fury warriors who cannot tank.

    There is too much variance in fights to allow people to focus exclusively on one aspect of their class.

    Malygos is a 1 tank fight. (2 if you want to be lazy with adds in P2). We have 3-4 tanks available on most given nights. I'd rather have tanks that can convert into fury warriors and ret paladins than tanks that can turn into tanks that are 5% better for a certain fight any day of the week.

    You can always drop the 50g and respect your tank side into improved spell reflect or whatever the gimmick talent for the fight that you are working on is, when you are actually working on that fight. Once you've learned the fight, imp spell reflect is not nearly as necessary, and a standard tanking build will be fine.


    TLDR: In the course of one night of raiding, we have a lot more changes in number of tanks required than we have need for tanks to refine their glyphs and talents to optimize for a certain fight. Having tanks that can swap to dps specs and glyphs at the drop of a hat is far more useful in most situations. If you are a tank who cannot respec to fury and perform competitively, you are not doing your job.
    ^ This.... needed to be said. This podcast should be entitled "Return of the Elitest Proc Warrior from tBC".

  8. #48
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    (edit: quoted the wrong post. This was directed a Petninja's post regarding eggs in baskets)


    If you ask me, if your healers have second thoughts about having your other tanks tank, then you need to either train your other tanks better, or you need to get your healers to work with your other tanks more and build some trust.

    Don't get me wrong - I understand your definition of MT. We call that person the bulldog. He leads the clear, and keeps the pace of the raid rolling. I think that the guild is better off if they can function without that player. Usually that means having others who can easily step up and fill the role.

    If you are "The Bulldog" for your guild, no matter how important, appreciated, and celebrated you are, you are doing your guild a disservice by monopolizing the role. You will also find yourself in a tough situation if you ever choose to stop playing the game, as that will leave your guild in a tough spot.
    Last edited by Assist; 03-04-2009 at 01:01 PM.

  9. #49
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    Our guild does not have a 'main tank'. We have about 4 well geared, experienced, talented tanks that work together and rotate tanking on bosses, etc. These are the people who will almost always show up for a raid.

    I have amassed a decent set of fury gear, and when an instance needs only 1 tank, guess what happens? If I get to tank, great. If not, I am not sitting outside the instance pouting. I get to contribute, see the fights from a different perspective, get to watch someone else tank and either learn something or give some advice.

    Having a DPS offspec is a double edged sword. Do I get asked to tank less on these fights than another tank who doesn't have the gear to go dps? maybe. but I am not going to hurt the raid just so I can say "oh I can't spec DPS, so you better let me tank"

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatian View Post
    You took what he said the wrong way.
    He should have said on the start that his podcast is just for and only for main tanks, i wouldn't have listened then. But he didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    Why does this bother you?
    Because i was asked to leave the raid when we went from naxx to malygos, and for not wanting that to happen again i'm getting told that i'm an mediocre tank.
    He didn't write it so he could tell you he thinks you suck.
    But yet he did, weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    I didnít want anyone to get the impression that youíre a bad tank if you donít go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec.
    out of context a little: "There are tanks among us that want to tank and that want to dps and there's US, the PURE TANKS." I know that doesn't mean precisly others are bad, but still it looks like 'pure' elitism to me...
    Last edited by corum; 03-04-2009 at 01:13 PM.

  11. #51
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    I see dual spec as a bandage to the current balancing of tanks. If i have a boss were i need lets say a 1 min SW but another were the entire raid has to do max dps for fight to beat the enrage timer. How i see it blizzard is creating our specs for us. Soon this will be prot blizzard spec 1 and 2. I see the dualas a main spec and pvp spec but the Dev probally made fights like malygos and then fight like patchworks were u need 2 tanks on one fight and one tank on another so I will go tank/dps since they about the same only difference is one is infront of the mob other is behind it.

  12. #52
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    Yes, the days of the single, fix-all "main tank" are over.

    Look, We need to admit 2 things. First there are two types of encounters. 10 man and 25 man. Anyone who has built a pug knows what chore it is to have 9 people stand around while you wait for the 1 heavily specialized, correctly geared, properly talented, intelligent, competent person of tank class CLASS_NAME which is the only person who stand a chance at tanking BOSS_NAME. So for 10 man raids, any 1 of the tanking classes should be successful if they are correctly geared and bring the full arsenal of their talents to bear in an encounter.

    However and this is my second point, there are At least 5 types of tanks. Warrior druid Death Knight and Pally and none of the above (magetank,rougetank, locktank,huntartank etc). I disagree with the homoginization of tank classes. Diveristy brings strength. in a 25 man raid there are enough positions that a raid leader can afford to bring 3 or 4 types of tanks. If there is enough overlap in tank abilities so that boss can be tanked successfully by any two of the tank classes, but the zone provides moments for each type of tank to shine, then that adds yet another element or strategy to boss encounter and raid composition with leaving you totally hosed cause your pally tank is in bramuda for the week.

    If theres only 1 type of tank, there will only be 1 type of boss.

  13. #53
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    I think there is something else to dual specs to consider. People like me if i had my wish i would be the MT and honestly i hate it when i have to OT adds it blows. I wanna be taking down that big guy not watching someone else do it. I know i know my role is just a s vital as his and everyone else's but still is thrive to be that MT. But I'm not as geared as the MT so i stay as the OT. So i will take a prot build with good threat stuff like deep wounds and stuff liek that. I will also have a full on fury dps spec for when a single tank fight pops up and i don't feel useless. Being an OT in Saphiron, Malygos, and thos eother single tank fights im forgetting is extremely boring.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.
    Far, far better to be over the top, create a little controversy and interest by providing a passionate viewpoint that than being bland and typeset. Which is of course why I disagree with you so strongly, but it's all part of the fun!

  15. #55
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    also kinda curious as to what the 2 specs people are gonna choose for prot. i would love to be able to lay the wood with my deeps canon but realisticly in my guilds raids there isnt any room for me to deeps and not tank since datz wut day pae meh tuh du.

    SO, out of all the possible spec choices my tiny brain has come up which of these combos do you smarty pants alpha bombs think is best.
    • traditional 15/5/51 spec
    • some kind of spell reflect raid ass saver from all the spells spec
    • the heavy arms single target deeps mode spec
    • some kind of DnD errr AoE spec
    • fury something maybe buff or w/e spec?
    • the "dude no titans grip is gud prot spec yo" lying spec
    also with the da da da duel glyphs im almost thinking HEY wtf why dont i just use 2 different variations of the 15/5/51 spec and just swap the glyphs around to suit (and technicly talants) single target or multi target.

    but then im like HEY wtf y dont i just buy a bunch of glyphs and do it myself and save muneez, but then i wouldnt be cool (and im lazy)

    this post was almost completly unimformative and if you have gotten this far im sorry i think i just wasted your life but i spent a good 10 mins writting it so i think im gonna post it anyways

  16. #56
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    Even though Vene plays human, I imagined him standing in front of a giant horde banner, Patton style.

  17. #57
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    unless I'm mistaken. Vene... is quite the green skin:
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  18. #58
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    Well said. I haven't tanked for my guild in a while, not since WoTLK came out in fact, but the concept of the MT is there. Its more than just a title for that nights raid. Its a calling. Its a mindset. Even if the MT is not performing typical MT duties, while they are present, everyone knows that they are capable of handling any snag or player disconnect or glitch that comes along, because they prepare for things like that to happen. MT's come prepared to perform any role necessary to complete the encounter, even if it means switching roles mid-fight.

    And as far as dual speccing goes, I see nothing wrong with prot/prot. And my third spec: rogue. If I wanted to dps, I'd very well just play a dps class.

  19. #59
    Meh, seems like a lot of hot air about the my second and first spec are going to be protection. Dual specs will not be the end of respecing.

    People who are trying to progress will still be specing for the encounter they're doing, not unnecessary specs. I have trouble thinking of a time in the past where it was necessary to respec between trash and boss, even if you are a very specialized tank spec for that particular fight, there are other people with tanking specs!... and probably will be several with a sub tanking spec come dual specs.

    I will have my second spec as a DPS spec, I will still tank all of my guild's progression encounters as long as I have since I formed the guild and as it isn't something absurd where only one tank that isn't a warrior is by far the ideal. A DPS subspec will be more useful to any guild that has competent tanks in addition to the MT.

    Maybe I'm a unique snowflake because I'm amazing at all warrior specs. If a fight isn't reliant on tank skill and more on beating an enrage timer I'd rather tear up the damage meter since it is more likely to be whats holding us back, and that situation seems more likely than needing a precise variation spec, which as I said, I'm not against doing, it just seems less likely to be useful. I guess that's what makes me a Raid Leader, doing what would benefit the raid most not what I prefer doing. Definitely double specing into that.

    There is the chance that we will be working on perfecting two different encounters that benefit from two unique tanking specs, thats the only real situation where two tank specs will be of value. Other than that it just seems like a way to avoid doing anything but tanking, which depending on the fights that we see could be at the detriment of the raid when you're forcing yourself into a tanking position because that's all you're capable of.
    Last edited by Tonylicious; 03-04-2009 at 11:14 PM.

  20. #60
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    You know, I'll be perfectly honest, I was half expecting a long pause for this guy to take a bong hit in the middle of the podcast.

    As others said, the cast came off extremely elitist. prot/prot is fine if you want to do that. prot/dps is just as good.

    As far as calling people MT and OT anymore, kiss it goodbye. If you can't swap tanks in at-will, you're doing something wrong with your tank core. Due to what Blizzard did, tanks are tanks. Nothing more, nothing less. Being an exceptional player should not be your defining point compared to other players. Your defining point should be your ability to work with others to bring them up to your level.

    If you ask around at Blizz, I don't think you'll meet one person who says dual-spec was made to define roles, rather it lets players expand into roles they previously could not.

    You can be a MT. I'll be a tank. The other 5 tanks in my guild will be tanks too. On any given night, all of us will be able to fill the spot we're needed for.

    People talking about anything past the word tank are just people who are looking for a justification to shake their e-peen in hand. Hands down.
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

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