TankingTips.com - Podcast #7: Return of the MT

[Mhoram]

damn you Vene. I was collecting my Fury set and hoping I might DPS in a raid once in a while. And then I listened to this. And damn your are so right. Unfortunately

2x it is then.

Well, there's nothing stopping you from respeccing one of the specs every so often (at least, not that I've heard). Do what you want, not what somebody tells you to do.

And a question - I thought the 15/5/51 spec was the best tank spec out there. What spec are you all thinking of using as your second spec, then, and why, if the first one is so good? I'm asking honestly - I don't see why you'd need two tank specs if the first is so highly regarded.

[veneretio]

damn you Vene. I was collecting my Fury set and hoping I might DPS in a raid once in a while. And then I listened to this. And damn your are so right. Unfortunately

2x it is then.

Well you should still be collecting a Fury set too! You never know when there will be a gimmick fight that has casters tanking or one where zero tanks are required. Plus, you can often throw on a few of these fury pieces for trash or light hitting bosses in order to do extra damage and speed things up.

[therman]

Thing is, I'm a hardcore prot. I love being prot. I spend hours researching and keeping up with the latest news concerning prot. I've been prot since just before BC came out and loved every minute of it.

But on 1-tank fights, I'm not tanking.

We've got another prot warrior who MTs everything. not because he's better than me, but he's been in the guild alot longer and he's been MT since before I joined, so I don't mind.

That said, can I really justify not taking fury as my second spec? on progression fights where we'll need all the DPS we can get, and there's only one tank, my second prot spec is going to be going to waste.

T.L.D.R. version: I'm a hardcore tank, but in this case the good of the raid > my individual desires.

[Thad]

And a question - I thought the 15/5/51 spec was the best tank spec out there. What spec are you all thinking of using as your second spec, then, and why, if the first one is so good? I'm asking honestly - I don't see why you'd need two tank specs if the first is so highly regarded.

yeah i have the same question. been trying to figure out kind a spec i could use for a second prot spec. hoping tankspot gives some ideas in a bit.

[tripp6sic6]

I just don't buy the idea that you must never DPS to be a "True MT" or that wanting to use your second spec to DPS makes you any less of a tank. None of these things affect the level of your play as a tank.

Preparing for each situation is the only way to be exceptional. We can agree on that. You should be specing and gearing for each individual encounter, but I don't think for a second that it is more inspirational to your raid that you switching using the Dual-spec feature or to use a traditional respec. That kind of trust that you are talking about is built through playing with people and consistently doing your job night-in and night-out.

Being versatile is not a sign of less dedication to your main role. Ciderhelm and Lore both have gone DPS for their raids. I don't think anyone on here can question either of their dedication to tanking or think that they inspire their raid any less when they are tanking.

I understand your points, but respectfully disagree.

[veneretio]

Do what you want, not what somebody tells you to do.

And a question - I thought the 15/5/51 spec was the best tank spec out there. What spec are you all thinking of using as your second spec, then, and why, if the first one is so good? I'm asking honestly - I don't see why you'd need two tank specs if the first is so highly regarded.

Sometimes what people want to do is what someone tells them to do. Nothing wrong with taking advice at times

As to my 2nd spec, I'm looking at either a very heavy Arms UA build for maximum single-target dps/threat or one that dips into Fury for more utility and (de)buffs in case of fights where I'm isolated from my OT or more to the point, that my OT is switching to Fury! What's the point in my OT being able to switch to Fury for more dps if he's forced to stay in a buff spec to help me? There'll be a far higher raid dps gain by me losing DW and doing the work myself than forcing my OT to still dps as Prot! O.o

Not to mention, when you change specs, it changes your Glyphs which can make for an even more massive shift from 1 spec to another. That being said, just like everyone else, I'll have to wait and see what the PTR ends up offering for us to know for sure what my 2nd prot spec will look like.

(pulled this out of my previous comment since editting it in probably would cause it to get lost and I think it's a good question)

[hyjalwar]

I find that i agree with your sentiment, but in the end must disagree with the outcome, only because i think one must take there guild makeup into the equation.
Maybe that is just the fact that i both mt and gm for my guild and its the gm in me speaking.
I know that i really really really want to take two tank specs. Since i already have at least 3 dif gear setups for tanking, 2 specs already isn't enough for the things i do. I have been prot since release, i leveled prot all three times, even when it really sucked to do so. But at this point my guild has sort of tankopia. At least three awesome mts and probably half a dozen more up and coming really good tanks.
Thing is i am the guy your talking about in the podcast to my guild, people always want me there, even if im just standing in a corner or holding some trash add that anyone could do. Ive tanked our guild successfully through every encounter that wotlk currently offers short of some achievements. But so have the other 2 mts we have.
And i only ever want to tank, but i cant be a spot hog either, and im tired of being worthless guy in the corner for something that is essentially being 9maned or 24maned, when i could be at least doing damage. So unless bliz finally gets off the rusty dusty and gives prot war at least acceptable dps while not tanking (dear god i hope someday), im going to have to take a fury off spec for my guild. So i can still come and be there as an icon, and off tank some add or what not if they need me to, but also not be worthless when im not actually tanking.

[Fragz0r]

Well, there's nothing stopping you from respeccing one of the specs every so often (at least, not that I've heard). Do what you want, not what somebody tells you to do.

The podcast just reminded me what brought me to tanking in the first place. Some time ago, when the content actually required you to be more than average and game wasn't so trivialized. I wanted to be the best. I think I lost it somewhere in between farming Lamenamaras and running out of content in 2 raid days. Hopefully Ulduar will change this.

[geros]

I also have to respectfully disagree with the taking 2x tanking specs.

I would've loved two tanking specs back in TBC when I warrior MT'd though. Since I've defected over to the evil DK ways I'd really also love 2 tanking specs. The three DK trees bring three really different tanking styles and it'd be great to switch from aoe tanking to ST tanking easily on the fly. Granted, I can probably come up with a strong enough hybrid aoe tank / dps build so that I don't feel too gimpy when not tanking.

As a person who has always made sure all tanks in the group are strong, I can't limit myself to just tanking. If I wasn't the right fit for a progression fight, I'm not going to force the raid to shove a square peg into a round hole. Warriors had a lot more capability to do protdps in TBC, so it was a ton easier to make the call to let a pally/druid tank encounters when not every tank was needed.

If one tank in the group doesn't have a dps spec, that tank is going to end up tanking on progression content unless class balance is out of whack to the point in which the tank isn't actually capable of tanking. It's forcing the raid to not min/max on tanking roles because someone didn't get the big picture enough to hybridize their roles. Plenty of warrior 'MT's' dps'd or respecced on fights to min/max for the raid just as well many druids/pallies respecced to do the same. Now blizzard makes that easy as pie, and the trend is that "dedicated" prot warriors will try to avoid hybridization like the plague because bears are going to steal their jerbs.

[corum]

Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneretio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

[Tatian]

Thank you Vene. Long time MT. I feel the same passion you do. I am sure that if people took the time studying and practicing as we do tanking there is no boss you could not kill.

MTs don't scream in vent. We lead our raids with a calm confidence.

Tatian

[veneretio]

Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneratio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

I didn’t want anyone to get the impression that you’re a bad tank if you don’t go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. I do want you to realize though that there's more you could be doing.

We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if you’re an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that that’s not going to change and if you’re in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too.

That being said, I do think you lose a psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank which is really what the whole podcast is about.

[Assist]

Calling tanks who do not use two prot specs mediocre is highly arrogant and unnecessary.

Warriors are in fact tank / dps hybrids. If you cannot effectively turn into a fury warrior in a time of need, You are not filling your potential. I do not recruit tanks in my guild who cannot dps, and likewise, I do not recruit fury warriors who cannot tank.

There is too much variance in fights to allow people to focus exclusively on one aspect of their class.

Malygos is a 1 tank fight. (2 if you want to be lazy with adds in P2). We have 3-4 tanks available on most given nights. I'd rather have tanks that can convert into fury warriors and ret paladins than tanks that can turn into tanks that are 5% better for a certain fight any day of the week.

You can always drop the 50g and respect your tank side into improved spell reflect or whatever the gimmick talent for the fight that you are working on is, when you are actually working on that fight. Once you've learned the fight, imp spell reflect is not nearly as necessary, and a standard tanking build will be fine.


TLDR: In the course of one night of raiding, we have a lot more changes in number of tanks required than we have need for tanks to refine their glyphs and talents to optimize for a certain fight. Having tanks that can swap to dps specs and glyphs at the drop of a hat is far more useful in most situations. If you are a tank who cannot respec to fury and perform competitively, you are not doing your job.

[Darkphyre]

I just don't buy the idea that you must never DPS to be a "True MT" or that wanting to use your second spec to DPS makes you any less of a tank. None of these things affect the level of your play as a tank.

Preparing for each situation is the only way to be exceptional. We can agree on that. You should be specing and gearing for each individual encounter, but I don't think for a second that it is more inspirational to your raid that you switching using the Dual-spec feature or to use a traditional respec. That kind of trust that you are talking about is built through playing with people and consistently doing your job night-in and night-out.

Being versatile is not a sign of less dedication to your main role. Ciderhelm and Lore both have gone DPS for their raids. I don't think anyone on here can question either of their dedication to tanking or think that they inspire their raid any less when they are tanking.

I understand your points, but respectfully disagree.

I've gotta agree with Tripp here there are some points that i agree,and some that i respectfully disagree with as well

Sure,with the upcoming dual specs you CAN spec into 2 seperate tanking builds,and if you've been on the PTR,it's amazingly simple to do and literally just requires you pressing about 4 buttons,maybe 5 with closetgnome

But when you say only the "True" MT's will spec into 2 seperate tanking builds,i've gotta call shenanigans on that

A maintank will be there for their guild Under Prot,Fury,Ret,Resto,Blood,Unholy,it doesn't matter.A maintank doesn't have any ambition for themselves,only ambition for their guild(in fact i think it's a signature around here somewhere)A maintank is only the guy or gal who has put forth the blood and sweat into understanding how not only their class works,but the raid in it's entirety.

It's the guy or gal who admits,hey! i fucked up here and there!Guess i should wait or foresee it next time,or maybe wowhead can help a bit

Or says to the mage,hey,you're doing great! but try doing this,moving this way,wait until "X" happens to cast "Y"

It's the person that for those few brief hours(or however long you raid) that is leading a group of misfits through the abyss itself,you're the first person in and the last person out,and you damn well better have a smile on your face the entire time

Because,yes,it is rather easy to be a MT nowadays,as far as gear goes...but you're not selling your gear,and this is one point i agree with.You're selling yourself! you're selling your attitude,confidence to your entire raid and you're telling them "This is gonna suck guys,but at the end of the day,i'll make sure it dies and you're all alive"

Because you not only work with yourself and fellow tanks,but you're working with healers and DPS,you're working with every single individual for the benefit of the raid,to give you better understanding of the raid from all perspectives,granted it's not a first person perspective(in a 3rd person camera ironically)

And yes,that attitude is very much infectious,hopefully you have enough of it that it will rub off onto fellow guildies and make them strive to be beyond anything that is "mediocre"

A maintank has alot more to worry about than worrying about 2 different specs for what will garner the same results

I do not question your method or ideas,i just disagree with them

I did enjoy your podcast and hope to hear more in the future

[Tatian]

Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneretio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

You took what he said the wrong way. If you like your guild then you must do what you have mentioned. If you want to be an MT then start up a guild and start recruiting. I know my story is that I started my guild with some friends and it grew. Was it easy, Hell no. But here I am MT.

Read the story of Ciderhelm... he devoted himself to starting and running a top end guild and boom today he has a black drake.

Most people don't want to be MT becuase when the raid wipes becuase you didn't explain the fight right, or you didn't move the boss, or you didn't use shield wall it is your fault. I know I take the blame for alot of wipes in my guild jsut to keep morale up. Morale > gear/skill/whatever you have. As MT you might be tanking the dragon but I am more importantly make sure my warlock is in a good mood and focused.

Tatian

[Assist]

I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

I didn’t want anyone to get the impression that you’re a bad tank if you don’t go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. I do want you to realize though that there's more you could be doing.

We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if you’re an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that that’s not going to change and if you’re in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too.

That being said, I do think you lose a psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank which is really what the whole podcast is about.

The very post you referenced details stepping down as a main tank sometimes. I disagree that having a "main tank" gives a psychological advantage. Having a clearly defined MT gives a very significant disadvantage when that tank is not available for a raid. What happens if that tank quits? or leaves the guild? You quite possibly just lost weeks of progression. Your guild should be able to trust all of your tanks. If not, then your tanks need more training, or they need more time actually tanking.

You also talked about PVPing in order to see things from a different perspective. Shouldn't that also apply to switching over to fury? A good warrior should be able to excel at dps as well as they excel at prot if they are allowed to respec and reglyph. We all know that gear is not a shortage if you are hitting naxx regularly. I guarantee that if you learn to maximise your dps as fury, you will up your damage and tps as prot at the same time.

[Petninja]

Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneratio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

Why does this bother you? Ven is talking about min/maxing, the hallmark of exceptional play. He wrote that podcast to help people, so people can take something away from it. He didn't write it so he could tell you he thinks you suck. If you aren't able to take anything away from it, that's fine. If it helps you, that's fine also.

Think of this podcast as Veneretio offering suggestions to tanks who are looking for more ways to excel at what they are doing, not as law and the only option there is. I know I don't need to have two prot specs to be competitive, but I'll have two because it will make me a better tank.

On a different note, it's nice to see some more podcasts on the news page. I wonder if we could get some authors from the other tank classes to show up too. I don't see too many DK or Druid posts making the main page, and I worry it's giving the "Tankspot doesn't like druids and DKs" feel to people.Maybe they're just shy .

[Bung]

Could you please please please list the abilities you would have in both protect specs? Sounds like a good idea. I just want to pick your brain on the two specs and what situations they would be used.

Bung

[Mhoram]

Sometimes what people want to do is what someone tells them to do. Nothing wrong with taking advice at times

As to my 2nd spec, I'm looking at either a very heavy Arms UA build for maximum single-target dps/threat or one that dips into Fury for more utility and (de)buffs in case of fights where I'm isolated from my OT or more to the point, that my OT is switching to Fury! What's the point in my OT being able to switch to Fury for more dps if he's forced to stay in a buff spec to help me? There'll be a far higher raid dps gain by me losing DW and doing the work myself than forcing my OT to still dps as Prot! O.o

Not to mention, when you change specs, it changes your Glyphs which can make for an even more massive shift from 1 spec to another. That being said, just like everyone else, I'll have to wait and see what the PTR ends up offering for us to know for sure what my 2nd prot spec will look like.

(pulled this out of my previous comment since editting it in probably would cause it to get lost and I think it's a good question)

There is something wrong with pushing advice as fact, though. If we don't want to be carbon copies of each other, then we shouldn't try to be carbon copies of each other, now, should we?

That would appear to be Satrina's point all over the place, would it not?

[Argamasilla]

There is no one-size-fits-all way to choose your talent points. This is true now and will still be true regardless of the number of different specs Blizzards decides to implement.

A few observations though on how this will likely play out depending on your tanking status...

If you are a progression tank, multiple specs are not going to be that big of an impact. You were probably already porting out to respec and getting summoned back in on a per fight basis; maybe even multiple times per fight to tune your spec to that fight. That goes for all the raid members, not just tanks. So at best it will just speed up the progression by allowing you to try 2 or more specs before needing to respec.

We have already seen the discussion on Tankspot about the limited number of slots in a raid for tanks. Any raid should be able to support 2 tanks. Undeniably there are/will be fights that require 3 tanks, some that would be easier with 4 and those that only need 1.

As a guild raid leader, you can control moving characters in and out of the raid to give your run the best chance at success. If you are pugging a raid together, you could try asking people to step out, or booting them out, but your raids will quickly get a bad reputation and at best you will only be able to pug scrubs that will do anything to even see one boss.

So when you are pugging raids, you will have to choose who you accept to your raid carefully, as you will be stuck with them for the duration. The starting raid composition will be something like 2/8/15 tanks/heals/DPS.

Given the choice between dual-proct spec tanks and Proct/DPS, a raid leader may choose (1) dual-proct, maybe (2) but no more. This doesn't mean that you will never get a raid position in a pug, only that you have just cut your chances down to 1 in 25, while if you can dps or tank as needed, you could have a 16 in 25 chance (any of the 15 dps slots + 1 tank slot).

Pug means that the raid leader does not know you, can not make a skill based assesment, and has no investment in providing you with a spot; unlike a guild that may give you a slot dual proct spec to enhance the guild.

So, if you all you want to do is tank, then you have to accept that you will not be going on as many raids, period. This is fair. Healing classes have had to respec for the good of the raid for so long, and now that it is as easy as clicking a button to respec, there is no excuse why warriors should not tank/dps spec (unless, as I said you are the MT in a guild).

I would guess that MOST fights in the new content will be tankable with a standard utility tank spec. This means that even if you are tank/dps spec, it does not mean that you will never be tanking bosses, it just means you will not ALWAYS be tanking bosses.

And, it may work out to be 4 or 5 protection builds suitable for different hard modes, in which case it opens up MORE slots in a raid for tanking / DPS enabled classes; the raid leader can't have all the builds in one player anyway, so they may as well take (4) tanks, (1) of which has dual tank and the other (3) each have a differnet tank build.....