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Thread: No good solution to "different but equal" until

  1. #21
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    I still don't see how a DK taking slightly more damage being a bad thing, even to healers. As it is they require less healing then Warriors, so that's just closing the gap again.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    No. You are confused sir. Druids and DKs are getting the MT roles due to fights like Sarth + drakes and Maly. It's a question of the type of encounter, not the class. When the last two encounters progression wise (and the ones that give the best loot) are bosses that do shit tons of damage with one ability (magic damage at that!) then a tank that can take the hit is needed, a tank with shit tons of health. If ole Patchy was the top of the progression tree, then I'm sure the qqing would be reversed (and I do call it qqing, our warrior and paladin MTs have tanked everything except sarth + 3d, which we have yet to accomplish).

    Just my 2 cents.
    Far as I know druid off tank, DK main tank is still the best patchwork combo. Warriors and pallies dont gen the threat DK's do and druids dodge/hps/armor way out weigh a warrior or pally in any form of avoidence gear as warriors require higher BV to gain threat gen.

    The tank war imop boils down to any class can tank any fight, just druids and DK's do it better, with the exception of Sarth 3 drakes.
    Last edited by ToiletDuck; 03-02-2009 at 02:32 AM.

  3. #23
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    Also one thing that was pointed out yet seems to be over looked, they already made duel effects for pvp vs pve, look at CC.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    No. You are confused sir. Druids and DKs are getting the MT roles due to fights like Sarth + drakes and Maly. It's a question of the type of encounter, not the class. When the last two encounters progression wise (and the ones that give the best loot) are bosses that do shit tons of damage with one ability (magic damage at that!) then a tank that can take the hit is needed, a tank with shit tons of health. If ole Patchy was the top of the progression tree, then I'm sure the qqing would be reversed (and I do call it qqing, our warrior and paladin MTs have tanked everything except sarth + 3d, which we have yet to accomplish).

    Just my 2 cents.
    I'd disagree. Unless Blizzard bans itself from large burst damage on MTs in ANY encounter in the future, this issue will resurface. If Patchwerk did double his current damage as per a progression encounter, druid/DK offtanks would be the only acceptable offtanks for a 40k hateful.
    "I played hard to avoid mistakes, but now I can play hard to capitalize on opportunities." -Arold, on the 3.0 Protection Warrior.

  5. #25
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    Am I alone in thinking that warrior mitigation/avoidance just went down from 3.0 to present? We essentially traded survivability for DPS. Some of that was changes to the class like losing 20 defense from anticipation etc., some of that was our focus on gearing for maximizing DPS instead of surviving burst.

    Imagine for a minute, a typical T7 raiding Warrior having ~4K'ish SBV and ~50% passive chance to block via block rating. What if your gear put you pretty close to 102.4% total avoidance+block and you were sporting a truck load of block value before critical block procs. Without changing a single thing about the class I'm guessing this would be a huge change in who's selected for tanking what. I'm somewhat convinced this is a gear problem, not something necessarily broken with the way Warriors are implemented right now.

    DKs sell copies of WotLK, and attracted previous subscribers back to the game. You want the truth? There ya go.

    Before the expansion is over we'll probably see a major overhaul to every tanking class to bring them on par with DKs, I seriously doubt we'll ever see a nerf to them to bring their viablity down to appease anyone.
    Last edited by kolben; 03-02-2009 at 08:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalken View Post
    "I'll let the dragon hit me in the face, you stab it in the ass."

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolben View Post
    Imagine for a minute, a typical T7 raiding Warrior having ~4K'ish SBV and ~50% passive chance to block via block rating. What if your gear put you pretty close to 102.4% total avoidance+block and you were sporting a truck load of block value before critical block procs. Without changing a single thing about the class I'm guessing this would be a huge change in who's selected for tanking what. I'm somewhat convinced this is a gear problem, not something necessarily broken with the way Warriors are implemented right now.
    The issue with having very high base BV is that it basically trivializes a lot of current content, even to the point of approaching soloing.

    This is not to say I don't favor better blocking. Blocking is a paladins bread and butter. I just realize blocking needs to be improved in other ways than just sheer volume.. like a boss with a stacking attack that can be blocked but not avoided, or a multiple of magic damage being blocked.

    DKs sell copies of WotLK, and attracted previous subscribers back to the game. You want the truth? There ya go.
    Stopping people from leaving is a much bigger priority to Blizzard than what they get out of attracting people back with a new class.

  7. #27
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    Leaving? They aren't at that point yet, not by a long shot. Blizzard has no competitors on anywhere near the quality they can deliver for PVE content. I don't speak for Blizzard, but I can't imagine that they are actually worried about a mass exodus. Even if they are, would the attrition in tank numbers be game breaking? No, definitely not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalken View Post
    "I'll let the dragon hit me in the face, you stab it in the ass."

  8. #28
    I personally dont see all the fuss in it, warriors still, atleast in my guild hold top spot for MT, weather it be in any encounter, excluding S3D mainly because we just cant hit the HP or CD's needed to MT it. Ill accept that. Becuase on that fight, the MT standing infront of sarth isnt the "most" important person. Yes if he dies its over, but for our raids, theres 3 other tanks doing jobs that are very if not more important then the MT. Its all about working together in my opinion, if a core group of raid tanks arent working together, your raid wont complete anything. And its not about whos MT, of course that is what everyone guns for but that pushes the rest of the tanks to far excee the expectations of what they are precived to be. Bring the player not the class. Good players will find a way to get it done, not just click buttons.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duriensbane View Post
    I personally dont see all the fuss in it, warriors still, atleast in my guild hold top spot for MT, weather it be in any encounter, excluding S3D mainly because we just cant hit the HP or CD's needed to MT it. Ill accept that. , but for our raids, theres 3 other tanks doing jobs that are very if not more important then the MT. Its all about working together in my opinion, if a core group of raid tanks arent working together, your raid wont complete anything. And its not about whos MT, of course that is what everyone guns for but that pushes the rest of the tanks to far excee the expectations of what they are precived to be. Bring the player not the class. Good players will find a way to get it done, not just click buttons.
    You can't say both "excluding S3D mainly because we just cant hit the HP or CD's needed to MT it" AND "Good players will find a way to get it done, not just click buttons."

    Doesn't matter how good a non-druid/dk is if they cannot reach raw numbers required to take the flame.

    Also "Becuase on that fight, the MT standing infront of sarth isnt the "most" important person. Yes if he dies its over" is contradictory bullshit.

    Either any tanking class should be capable of standing in front of sarth+3... or something is unbalanced vis a vis tank classes.

  10. #30
    but that is saying in just 1 fight, if you take that fight away...all other fights dont matter. S3D was a mistake on blizz part and shouldnt of been made that way.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duriensbane View Post
    Becuase on that fight, the MT standing infront of sarth isnt the "most" important person. Yes if he dies its over
    made me giggle, the point is if DK's and Druids can tank it, so should equal geared palas and warriors.

    "Good players get it done" - I dont think palas and warriors should have to outgear other tanks to be equal thats just wrong.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duriensbane View Post
    but that is saying in just 1 fight, if you take that fight away...all other fights dont matter. S3D was a mistake on blizz part and shouldnt of been made that way.
    I think you sadly have that ass about because everything you experienced with raiding in Wrath so far is mute.
    Sarth 3D is likely far closer to the difficulty and challenge Ulduar will bring than the easy entry level Naxx content delivered... Bliz stated Naxx was tuned that way.
    Ulduar is where the real progression raiding starts
    Just like Sarth, this is where the disparity between tanking classes will quickly show up and become blatantly obvious
    Blizzard have some heavy balancing work to do if they insist on all tanks being viable and I'm sure they are doing it!
    My mana is low!!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duriensbane View Post
    but that is saying in just 1 fight, if you take that fight away...all other fights dont matter. S3D was a mistake on blizz part and shouldnt of been made that way.
    It wasn't a mistake, its shown the fundamental inbalance that is currently in the process of being corrected we hope.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    If ole Patchy was the top of the progression tree, then I'm sure the qqing would be reversed.
    You're just plain wrong. Thanks to CDs DKs do better on patchwerk, especially blood-specced DKs. Check out Xav et als data on the new thread.

  15. #35
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    Currently there is a patchwork on the ptr for tank raw damage. He gets a stacking buff that increases his damage over time.

    Druids die around 40 debuffs and I beleave DK's last near 75? Warriors and pallies dont even hit the 40 marker.

    This is the point, Raw damage negation DK's are by FAR above the rest of the tanks while maintaining the highest TPS.

    There is no arguing the fact that in max/min situations DK's hold the torch.


    FYI Sarth 3 drakes if you have a DK tanking you only require 2 more effects to "eat" the flame. Pallies blessing, priest either or.. If you have a druid do it you require 2-4 effects besides the Druids. If you where to have a warrior or Pally tank it you would need 4-5 effects and its possible a pally's would not save the warrior.

  16. #36
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    Hmmm. How about closing the armour gap a little, by giving Warriors a talent that multiplies the armour they get from shields?

    Even a boost of 50% armour from shields would give Warriors about 3-4k, which would close the gap Death Knights and Druids have on us. Heck, give a similar talent to Paladins as well.

  17. #37
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    I think the idea of MT and OT is a completely outdated idea...

    having all the classes when dual specs goes live will be the way to go, allowing each class to shine in its own situation.
    |Kaad|Warrior|Protection|The Milk Drinkers|Runetotem|US|

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