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Thread: No good solution to "different but equal" until

  1. #1
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    No good solution to "different but equal" until

    they separate PvP and PvE balances.

    There has been pretty convincing proof that given regular blizzard instance design, a certain tank class, the DK is just plain better than other classes for progression content, and that is ultimately the best choice of tank.

    Previously, arguably warriors were the best choice of progression tank, with caveats, but there was a niche for other tanks, like paladins and feral tanks. AOE tanking was the purview of Paladins and ferals were the best choice for bosses with consistent and huge melee hits, and theoretically magic damage soaks.

    Blizzard has a new favorite progression tank. The Death Knight. The best parry/dodge avoidance. The best armor. The best effective health. The best cooldowns (even after the glyph buffs of 3.1.)

    I don't begrudge another class having a strong ability... after all I have a different ability, along with warriors. A shield... however a shield is not "different yet equal". On trash, sure... its a little better for us than DKs... but seriously who worries about trash?

    So... we say... make shield abilities better. Give shields a multiple of block value in direct reduction of magic abilities.... thus we'd pit better cooldowns vs flat consistent reduction. Different yet equal, and you could thus design different encounters where regular but consistent damage and extraordinary but cooldowned damage would not give only one tank type an exceptional advantage.

    Why can't we do this? PvP. Can't do flat blockvalue multiple reduction of magic damage... even as deep prot... because it would tip the balance of PvP... given that Blizzard has actually given prot some dps... and a high BV equating to high shield slams/SotR AND magic reduction would be viewed as imba.

    Why are we allowing PvP to limit new options for PvE raiding after all this time? Its been years of this, after all.

    My plea... give a raidwide debuff from new/future raid bosses, "Valorous Presence" (merely an illustrative name,) that modifies base skills and talents to give more, less or entirely different advantages.

    They should be as minimal changes as possible... only enough to give different challenges and solutions to raiding (like for example changing PvE raid healing regen without changing up mana regen everywhere else.)

    Thoughts? Comments?

  2. #2
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    hasnt this been hashed out in other threads?

  3. #3
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    I've been reading a lot of threads about this, and while there has been talk of

    1) DK's being the best progression tank
    2) There needing to be an alternative mechanic to avoid homogenization and give a real "different yet equal" solution
    and 3) PvP is the reason why they won't

    as far as I've seen there hasn't been a 4) We have to decouple PvP and PvE changes

  4. #4
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    There's an easy solution to PVP affecting PVE. Other MMOs have done it - vs PVP flagged targets, abilities have alternate versions that do reduced damage/reduced effects/different effects.

    Wow already does this in that CC abilities have reduced PVP duration.

    It's something that's really easy to fix that they have no intention of doing because they aren't convinced it's broken in the first place.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    There's an easy solution to PVP affecting PVE. Other MMOs have done it - vs PVP flagged targets, abilities have alternate versions that do reduced damage/reduced effects/different effects.

    Wow already does this in that CC abilities have reduced PVP duration.

    It's something that's really easy to fix that they have no intention of doing because they aren't convinced it's broken in the first place.
    Not only reduced PVP duration... but also no long CD's in arena.. so you're correct that there is precedent for this.

    Regarding the "not convinced its broken". In WoW, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Eventually. The designers do respond to player demand eventually, because at this point in the design cycle they are more concerned about player retention than design consistency.

    Perhaps they simply don't believe there is demand for differing standards in PvP and PvE... which I believe would allow for much better encounter design, and entirely less whining by PvP'ers when there is a change for PvE reasons.

    You've mentioned that other games do this. Do you personally believe that WoW should? Do you think approaching this from a PvP flagged viewpoint is better than a raid boss debuff viewpoint? I favor the latter, because you could restrict it to newer raid bosses, and resistrict the possibility of exploiting old raid bosses by new mechanics for easy gold farms.. requiring less work fixing those, and so on.

  6. #6
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    I wish it was a difference. I think it would allow changes to be made for either section of the game. But Blizzard has said they aren't for separation so what can we do?

  7. #7
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    The ~only~ way you can implement this is to utilize PVP flagged recipients. Lest you destroy your game by having "some bosses that you can do alot of DPS to" and "the rest you can barely scratch" and the determining factor is "is this boss/trash PVE flagged?"

    It's just backwards.

    I also believe PVP damage and healing needs to be retuned such that a 1 v 1 match between skilled, geared players lasts as long as the average raidboss. I see no reason at all for resilience itemization if you properly utilize "PVP ability" differences.

  8. #8
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    I also believe PVP damage and healing needs to be retuned such that a 1 v 1 match between skilled, geared players lasts as long as the average raidboss.
    The problem is that this will either take a lot of the skill out of PvP, or make PvP a matter of being perfect (a single mistake = death). The middle ground shrinks with that long of a timeframe.

  9. #9
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    done properly it makes the match hang on skill - over a minute and a half to two minutes there's alot to be gained by good positional play, use of cooldowns and burst damage.

  10. #10
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    Re-introduce crushing blows on new Raid Bosses, only tone it down so it doesn't cripple tanks that can't block. And change Shield Block back to how it was so blocking becomes more integral to tanking.

    So while the Death Knight and Druid has higher HP, they'll suffer crushing blows again (only not as harsh as during BC), and the Paladins and Warriors get to close the gap again with their ability to block.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Re-introduce crushing blows on new Raid Bosses, only tone it down so it doesn't cripple tanks that can't block. And change Shield Block back to how it was so blocking becomes more integral to tanking.

    So while the Death Knight and Druid has higher HP, they'll suffer crushing blows again (only not as harsh as during BC), and the Paladins and Warriors get to close the gap again with their ability to block.
    Good. Lord. No.

    There's absolutely nothing to be gained by reintroducing crushing blows.

  12. #12
    So then people refuse to take druids/death knights because they will be hit harder.....

  13. #13
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    I guess you didn't understand my suggestion.

    TONE DOWN crushing blow. So it only adds about 10% damage or so. Death Knights and Druids will still have superior armour and avoidance, as well as more hp, so it would still be more or less the same damage intake.

  14. #14
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    Durandro - The problem with the very notion of crushing blows is the mana/damage ratio.

    People would not use Druid/DK tanks because they'd be "mana sponges" (I've already heard of people snubbing druids because their low avoidance makes them "mana sponges" now.) blizzard is actively rebalancing HP levels and mitigation levels to normalize the classes, we don't need to complicate things by adding an extra step that would largely cause the theorycrafting community to snub half of the tank classes in the game. >_>;

  15. #15
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    Personally I don't see it. If they still take more or less the same damage, then they require the same amount of healing.

    And as it is right now, Warriors and Paladins are getting snubbed for MT role over DK's. Closing the gap won't flip it on its head, it'll just mean they aren't the automatic choice anymore.

  16. #16
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    No. You are confused sir. Druids and DKs are getting the MT roles due to fights like Sarth + drakes and Maly. It's a question of the type of encounter, not the class. When the last two encounters progression wise (and the ones that give the best loot) are bosses that do shit tons of damage with one ability (magic damage at that!) then a tank that can take the hit is needed, a tank with shit tons of health. If ole Patchy was the top of the progression tree, then I'm sure the qqing would be reversed (and I do call it qqing, our warrior and paladin MTs have tanked everything except sarth + 3d, which we have yet to accomplish).

    Just my 2 cents.
    Told you so.

  17. #17
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    Not saying it's an intellect reason for being snubbed. But it still happens.

    So would taking 10% extra physical damage really be class destroying?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    The ~only~ way you can implement this is to utilize PVP flagged recipients. Lest you destroy your game by having "some bosses that you can do alot of DPS to" and "the rest you can barely scratch" and the determining factor is "is this boss/trash PVE flagged?"

    It's just backwards.

    I also believe PVP damage and healing needs to be retuned such that a 1 v 1 match between skilled, geared players lasts as long as the average raidboss. I see no reason at all for resilience itemization if you properly utilize "PVP ability" differences.
    I think you misunderstand my point here.. I wouldn't touch relative dps numbers. I think for the most part, blizz have got the balance about right. Rogues and maybe locks could maybe use a small relative boost given that dual specs have increased hybrid utility in 3.1

    What I would consider for change in a PvE Raiding specific buff (as I mentioned for new and future content only,) would be damage reduction abilities to make tanking classes more equivalent... thus making it about the player, not the class.

    If you did make changes (and roll back the unbalanced ones) for PvP then the changes you made for raiding and regular play would change old content in a way that may cause some work for Blizzard.

    As for 1v1 pvp duration, I tend to agree. DPS numbers have and continue to increase with time. Relative stamina has not increased at the same pace, thus making for a feeling of "I got hosed" in PvP.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Not saying it's an intellect reason for being snubbed. But it still happens.

    So would taking 10% extra physical damage really be class destroying?
    10% would not be class destroying certainly.. but it would really be a meaningless penalty. Worst case you're talking around 30% crushing, given that miss/dodge/parry would push crush. thus 10% extra damage, 30% of the time = 3% extra damage = no big deal.

    The issue with crushes is not the tank, but a feeling of RNG unfairness to healers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priestvalon View Post

    There has been pretty convincing proof that given regular blizzard instance design, a certain tank class, the DK is just plain better than other classes for progression content, and that is ultimately the best choice of tank.
    blizzard could simply address this issue and make the tanks more streamlined. blizzard must be really strugglin to find the balance.

    for the people on this forum, it really doesnt seem that hard to get a more streamline tanking approach but it obviously is for blizzard.

    I hope they listen and take on board some of the things discussed on this forum especially the detailed discussions regarding heroic strike and effective health which were spot on.

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