DND Threat

[Ziell]

Im in a bit of an argument.

I say that DND has the best threat because of its multiplier, and should always be used to open with on an aoe pack. I.E. DND IT Pest (wait for refresh or blood tap) HB

Guildy says DND is a waste, and should never be used, unless in a rare situation, and that IT --> Pest --> HB (wait for refresh or BT) HB, is better.

He claims his rotation is better because he has gotten feedback from forums and his experiences (wouldnt say what forums when asked).

Keep in mind he is specced for spell deflection 3/5 BOTN etc etc.

I try and try to tell him that DND is good for aoes and he doesnt seem to understand. He also refuses to agree that in an all hit situation, a hit rotation would produce ideal TPS.

I site tankspot and EJ, he says just because a forum says it doesnt mean its fact.

Comments?

[Inaara]

DnD is great for AoE threat. DnD and HB are both amazing AoE tanking tools but they shine differently. HB is great for snap aggro but if it misses a mob they can run right through to a healer or DPS. DnD doesnt have that snap threat gen that HB does but it can pick up passerby's and over the length of the spell produces a large amount of threat.

I take it that you're a Frost DK. Being frost you can easily AoE tank only using HB while juggling diseases with Pestilence and I would suggest doing that. When I'm frost I initially pull with HB, if I have death chill in my spec then I make sure it's a crit on the pull. I then follow up with IT-PS-Pest and then HB again when it's off CD.

If you have the abilities and tools use them to their fullest, your judgement seems to be spot on so far.

[dotJEM]

For 25 mans ive seen DnD normally do around the 16k Threat mark for me, thats as deep Unholy... and around 1.6K TPS alone... Weather or not that tops a fost tank doing HB's im not really shure...

(Ive never been Frost).

I use it quite alot, even on bosses (single target) if i can manage to fill the GCD's with UB/DC... since 16k, if it can be put in with lossing 0 to max 1 GCD is more that what that one GCD gives...

Again... ive never been frost... i can imagine HB being quite good as well... what to use would be a style matter idd say.

[Satorri]

The breakdown like Inaara said, is burst vs baseline.

I'm Unholy spec, normally, so my DnD should be the heaviest you can get from a DK tank by spec (my gear isn't too shabby either), and it ticks for 350 on each target, once per second, for 10 sec. The threat multiplier for DnD is 1.9 and the multiplier for Frost Presence is 2.07. That means DnD for me, ticks for ~1400 TPS on each target for 10 sec, for a grand total of 14k threat per target for the total if they all tick, not accounting for crits (though my crit chance is reasonably measly, at best I'd expect one crit tick per target). Obviously that's some hot threat value, however, it is built over 10 seconds.

For frost you can expect DnD to tick smaller, though I suspect the total threat will add up to a large amount. Bear in mind it is also not a fair comparison since the two are different cost methods. At my level of gear, with raid buffs, I've seen HB crit for 6k, roughly, with the Frost Presence multiplier that's 12.4k threat in a single burst. Smaller than my DnD total (though mine isn't a Frost value, don't know what DnD ticks for in my frost build, no numbers handy), but a lot more in the first moments.

Here's the thing to keep in mind: the situation dictates the needs of your rotation. If you have a big group and you don't have much problems with aoe threat, either will work fine.

So long as we're on the topic of burst vs baseline threat, I'd also like to point out that even as frost Blood Plague constitutes a definite baseline threat value. The only reason to not PS before you spread diseases is if you are seriously concerned about opening threat to the point of not being able to spare one more CD. Having both diseases ticking will boost your baseline threat over the fight very nicely, for the disease ticks and for the dmg buff to OB and BS.

So, the key to your disagreement is like saying, which is more important, Burst or Long-term threat? The answer is, "depends."

[dotJEM]

The breakdown like Inaara said, is burst vs baseline.

I'm Unholy spec, normally, so my DnD should be the heaviest you can get from a DK tank by spec (my gear isn't too shabby either), and it ticks for 350 on each target, once per second, for 10 sec. The threat multiplier for DnD is 1.9 and the multiplier for Frost Presence is 2.07. That means DnD for me, ticks for ~1400 TPS on each target for 10 sec, for a grand total of 14k threat per target for the total if they all tick, not accounting for crits (though my crit chance is reasonably measly, at best I'd expect one crit tick per target). Obviously that's some hot threat value, however, it is built over 10 seconds.

Actually, last i was running around and testing DnD in the open, i always got 11 ticks... This is a while back... so maybe that is something that has been corrected...

Ill have to have a look at that again soon...

If it still does, that means it ticks at:
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 = 11...

So thats 15.4K threat in your 1400TPS since you look at Threat as an effect of damage...

---

And confirmed... 11 ticks... it can get crits on ticks, but crits for DnD only seems to be a 1.5x (even though runic focus would sugest otherwise) and can also be negated by resistance...

[Satorri]

Interesting, normally effects like that don't tick immediately, they tick at the end of the first increment (1, 2, 3 sec).

Good to know, thanks dotJEM!

And I've noticed that too, DnD crits like normal spells. Resistance is always a factor with non-physical dmg regardless of source (FS and ScS are subject).