DK frost tank

[Myddraal]

This is my frost spec for tanking The World of Warcraft Armory
For some reason i have trouble keeping aggro on some mobs. i was wondering if it was my spec or gear. If not what are some helpful hints that you guys could share.
I have 2 rotations. IT,PS,Pest,HB. or IT,pest,HB,PS,Pest (depending on how aggro is being spread out)
Any and all helpful comments are welcome.

[Coldhell]

I would use IT, PS, Pest, blood rune, bb, HB, then go from there I normally have a RS in there also if it is up....90% of the time it is. Never had too much of an issue with agg....I may change it yet again....I know I will when the patch comes out...damm they made HB a 50 point talent.

Here is my spec WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator

and you can check my Armory too if you want. Thing is I am always changing stuff around to better suit my needs...now I have done some off the wall crap and that is changing today....plus I am missing some enchants because I changed gear yet again.

Now this is just my opinion and some may have others...I try them all myself and see if it works....everyone's play style is different so do what works best for you and let me know.

[Andaris]

I haven't been a Frost tank in a month or so, but you seem very well geared.

A few questions:

1. What kind of DPS is your raid putting up (2.5k/ea? 5.5k?)?
2. Are they stealing aggro on single targets, or is it an AoE problem?

I know it'll mess up you initial HB, but if you're struggling with Group aggro, I think the surest response is to drop a DnD first. It does significant damage and, what's more, it has bonus threat built into its baseline.

If it's single target, look at your Recount or WWS parses. are you getting parried a lot? You might (Sorry...) consider switching to a 2 hander. You have to land hits to generate aggro, and if you are parried for the first 3 seconds of an encounter your warlocks 8k SB crit is going to take aggro, period.

Just throwing spaghetti at the wall here.

[Omoh]

You're DW tanking. You're going to generate less threat. It's just how it goes.

However always drop dnd first. Then IT, pest, then HB. It'll glue anything to you. PS is a waste. HB and DnD is where your aoe threat is going to come from.

[Coldhell]

Well I have changed my build big time for raids. I went with a more multimob build and it seems to keep aggro no problem. I have tanked everything now and didn't have an issue so if you are raiding then try my spec out and see how you like it.

The rotation is about the same D&D, IT, PS, if it is up SS, Pest, BT, BB. Can't remember right now but I may do BT before pest...haven't played in about 3 days cause of work. The reason I do SS is because of crypt fever...another disease never hurt. Also my desecration seems to pop every time too.

With my gear and this build I am still def capped with 29.1k unbuffed HP.

[Storklem]

Wouldn't bother with Icy Touch, Scourge Strike, Pestilence. They use too many runes. These are for Blood/Unholy spell cycles, and not for Frost spec. Scourge strike is pretty useless apart from a slight increase in threat, but it's negligable for the extra runes it uses to apply to all mobs in range. May aswell save those runes for Howling Blast and Obliterate since they generate a lot more threat.

Try getting the Howling Blast glyph. Excellent one since it dots all mobs in range with Frost Fever. For the cost of 1xHowling Blast (1xFrost + 1xUnholy runes), it's a no brainer. You won't need to waste a blood rune for Pestilence. Also, don't bother with Scourge strike, since once your targets have FF, this counts for diseases to increase frost damage on all targets. Extra diseases won't increase damage, as it does with Blood spec.

If you want higher aoe threat, rotation should be: DnD >> HB >> BS >> Frost strike spam (make sure you have the 'Scent of Blood' talent as it will generate loads of runic power to spam frost strike on multiple/single targets). Also, have the Frost Strike glyph to reduce the cost.

For single target aggro, especially as dual weild:

Howling Blast (for ranged pull) >> Obliterate >> 2x BS >> Frost Strike spam (or Rune Strike when it procs, which will be often).

Additional
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Stamina is no real use for a DK tank without appropriate defenses alongside. I've seen stamina DKs trying to match Druid hp, but losing out on all the nice defense skill, dodge, parry, reduced chance to be hit. They seriously nerf their ability to reduce damage taken and cause wipes since healers go out of mana a lot quicker. Also, the more defenses you have, the more chance Rune Strike will proc, which means extra single target aggro. I have no problem with dual weild tanking. Just make sure you have decent weapons because this will increase threat a lot.

[Ulosthegame]

epic necro.

Stamina is no real use for a DK tank without appropriate defenses alongside. I've seen stamina DKs trying to match Druid hp, but losing out on all the nice defense skill, dodge, parry, reduced chance to be hit. They seriously nerf their ability to reduce damage taken and cause wipes since healers go out of mana a lot quicker. Also, the more defenses you have, the more chance Rune Strike will proc, which means extra single target aggro. I have no problem with dual weild tanking. Just make sure you have decent weapons because this will increase threat a lot.

I LOL'D. If you're defense capped- don't worry. If you're not at at least 30% dodge with the sigil proc ( excluding in ICC) then you're doing something wrong ( or you've not farmed enough triumphs yet). Stamina and armor are of VERY high value to DKs as with any tank, disregarding them is bad. chance to be hit should be ~14% as frost, so that's hardly a problem.

EDIT: looking at your DW tank spec- you're missing some amazing threat talents.

[Storklem]

I'm talking about Boss tanking stats. 540 defense with tonnes of stamina is awful.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm talking about those tanks who cut off their defenses at 540, which there are many on my realm. They overload on stamina gems, enchants, and miss out on everything else. I'm not talking about those that actually have a nice balance from their gear. I'm also talking about tanking TotC, not heroics or dungeons. I agree stamina is a bit better there when you lack raiding gear.

EDIT 2: And I'm not talking about 'disregarding' stamina as a stat. I'm on about making sure to put some into defensive stats and not be a stamina junkie.

[PatrikL]

I'm talking about Boss tanking stats. 540 defense with tonnes of stamina is awful.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm talking about those tanks who cut off their defenses at 540, which there are many on my realm. They overload on stamina gems, enchants, and miss out on everything else. I'm not talking about those that actually have a nice balance from their gear. I'm also talking about tanking TotC, not heroics or dungeons. I agree stamina is a bit better there when you lack raiding gear.

EDIT 2: And I'm not talking about 'disregarding' stamina as a stat. I'm on about making sure to put some into defensive stats and not be a stamina junkie.

I strongly dissagree with this. Of course its not a good idea to completely ignore one stat but imo stacking stamina will almost always be better in the fights we are doing these days where plenty of bosses can two shot a tank.
Stacking defense after reaching 540 doesnt give you nearly as much a benefit as stamina. Stacking dodge or parry is probably a bit better but the very small increased chance of a dodge or parry from one gem doesnt even come close to another 30 stam I think.

We had our first go at Marrowgar last night and during that fight (after one healer had died) mana became an issue but apart from that time I cont remember the last time it was a problem. Tanks dying from large hits though happens all the time. Having another 2k hp from gemming almost only stamina can definately help in those situations.

Come Cataclysm this will no doubt change, but for now stamina is the name of the game for boss fights.

[Storklem]

Stacking defense after reaching 540 doesnt give you nearly as much a benefit as stamina. Stacking dodge or parry is probably a bit better but the very small increased chance of a dodge or parry from one gem doesnt even come close to another 30 stam I think.

We had our first go at Marrowgar last night and during that fight (after one healer had died) mana became an issue but apart from that time I cont remember the last time it was a problem. Tanks dying from large hits though happens all the time. Having another 2k hp from gemming almost only stamina can definately help in those situations.

Come Cataclysm this will no doubt change, but for now stamina is the name of the game for boss fights.

I tanked Marrowgar with no problem. I had 32.9k hp unbuffed at the time. I didn't use any pots/flasks/food buffs, and the healers commented on how easy it was to heal me compared to other tanks who have a lot more hp. Not many tanks I know have tried the balance between stamina aswell as defenses. If they only gave it a shot, they would understand. As a healer too, I find it extremely mana intensive healing full stamina gem/enchanted tanks compared to those with more defenses and a lower stamina pool. The only reason people would need to stack stamina is due to having extremely low defenses in the first place, for instance in blue gear wanting to start tanking heroics, or attempting to clear a new raid dungeon in gear a fair few levels lower than the average for that instance.

P.S. I dual wield tank too, and people do tell me about the whole 'Parry-Hasting' issue, but it's never been an issue for me. Hell, it's a game, so play it whichever way you want, but nobody is right or wrong. I just thought I'd post my opinion to help the original poster with talents/spec/etc.

EDIT: The original point I was trying to make, is that if you stack more defenses instead of 'only' stamina, Rune Strike is likely to always proc and you can use it for single target aggro generation. This overcomes the need to constantly spam other skills to keep on top of the threat. That's what I was pointing out, as I checked his gear on armory and saw a lot of stamina gems/enchants where there could be more in terms of defensive stats (defense/dodge/parry).

I'm not going to post any more on here. I've forwarded my viewpoint, and it'll just end up in a vicious cycle of who's right and who's wrong if I keep posting. Anyway, to Myddraal, I hope my information was useful to you.

[PatrikL]

I tanked Marrowgar with no problem. I had 32.9k hp unbuffed at the time. I didn't use any pots/flasks/food buffs, and the healers commented on how easy it was to heal me compared to other tanks who have a lot more hp. Not many tanks I know have tried the balance between stamina aswell as defenses. If they only gave it a shot, they would understand. As a healer too, I find it extremely mana intensive healing full stamina gem/enchanted tanks compared to those with more defenses and a lower stamina pool. The only reason people would need to stack stamina is due to having extremely low defenses in the first place, for instance in blue gear wanting to start tanking heroics, or attempting to clear a new raid dungeon in gear a fair few levels lower than the average for that instance.

P.S. I dual wield tank too, and people do tell me about the whole 'Parry-Hasting' issue, but it's never been an issue for me. Hell, it's a game, so play it whichever way you want, but nobody is right or wrong. I just thought I'd post my opinion to help the original poster with talents/spec/etc.

EDIT: The original point I was trying to make, is that if you stack more defenses instead of 'only' stamina, Rune Strike is likely to always proc and you can use it for single target aggro generation. This overcomes the need to constantly spam other skills to keep on top of the threat. That's what I was pointing out, as I checked his gear on armory and saw a lot of stamina gems/enchants where there could be more in terms of defensive stats (defense/dodge/parry).

I'm not going to post any more on here. I've forwarded my viewpoint, and it'll just end up in a vicious cycle of who's right and who's wrong if I keep posting. Anyway, to Myddraal, I hope my information was useful to you.

Yeah I should have been a bit less categorical in my response before I think. Of course avoidance helps, my opinion is just that the amount of health you have to sacrifice to get a decent amount of extra avoidance is too much. I should also mention that I have not gone down this road myself so my opinions only come from calculations of how much hp I would have to sacrifice when gemming/enchanting for avoidance. I have however recently tried to increase my armor instead of going full out stamina and that would help the healers with the mana consumption in a similar way but at the same time not increase the "spikyness".

[weisskrutz]

Wouldn't bother with Icy Touch, Scourge Strike, Pestilence. They use too many runes. These are for Blood/Unholy spell cycles, and not for Frost spec. Scourge strike is pretty useless apart from a slight increase in threat, but it's negligable for the extra runes it uses to apply to all mobs in range. May aswell save those runes for Howling Blast and Obliterate since they generate a lot more threat.

Try getting the Howling Blast glyph. Excellent one since it dots all mobs in range with Frost Fever. For the cost of 1xHowling Blast (1xFrost + 1xUnholy runes), it's a no brainer. You won't need to waste a blood rune for Pestilence. Also, don't bother with Scourge strike, since once your targets have FF, this counts for diseases to increase frost damage on all targets. Extra diseases won't increase damage, as it does with Blood spec.

If you want higher aoe threat, rotation should be: DnD >> HB >> BS >> Frost strike spam (make sure you have the 'Scent of Blood' talent as it will generate loads of runic power to spam frost strike on multiple/single targets). Also, have the Frost Strike glyph to reduce the cost.

For single target aggro, especially as dual weild:

Howling Blast (for ranged pull) >> Obliterate >> 2x BS >> Frost Strike spam (or Rune Strike when it procs, which will be often).

Why no BB after HB?

[Storklem]

Why no BB after HB?

I must've got that wrong. Shortening names gets a bit confusing at times I'd use BB for aoe, BS for single target to use up Blood runes inbetween everything else.

[Storklem]

Yeah I should have been a bit less categorical in my response before I think. Of course avoidance helps, my opinion is just that the amount of health you have to sacrifice to get a decent amount of extra avoidance is too much. I should also mention that I have not gone down this road myself so my opinions only come from calculations of how much hp I would have to sacrifice when gemming/enchanting for avoidance. I have however recently tried to increase my armor instead of going full out stamina and that would help the healers with the mana consumption in a similar way but at the same time not increase the "spikyness".

I originally tried the stamina trick, but seemed to get hit a lot of the time. I tried overloading on defense, and that didn't seem to work either since special boss skills wiped me out before healers could get me up. What I found though is that there's a fine threshold on each boss where defense skill seems to make a large difference between getting hit often, and getting a lot of dodge/parry/misses. For instance, 10-20 defense skill difference on bosses in VOA, plus about 2% more dodge and 1% more parry seems to cross a reallllly fine threshold where the boss suddenly can't hit very often. I think Blizzard purposely worked out the math in the game so that bosses have a greatly diminished chance to hit you with only a slight boost to your defensive stats. It would make sense in newer raids when you have a look at the base stats (ungemmed/unenchanted) vs earlier gear.

I can't find anywhere that shows each bosses hit rating, expertise, etc, but it would be nice to find out if it's the case that there's a diminishing returns kind of curve that goes for each bosses stats vs tank's defensive stats.

That's pretty much what I've been experimenting with and checking 'Damage Taken' for boss encounters with my upgraded stats vs previous encounters. But yeah, I agree stamina is very important for a lot of encounters currently. I do swap out trinkets for a boost and pop a flask now and then Other fights though, I tend to lose the stam trinks and go for others since there's more melee damage. Suppose it depends on the encounters and the percentage of magic damage vs melee, and how hard bosses hit when they get chance to get through the dodge, parry, dodge, miss, dodge, parry, dodge, miss, miss...