Also from the tank's perspective he's an "easy" fight because it's not too difficult to keep almost all the aggro and damage collected into one place... We ran DTK(H) the other night and I happily collected something like 95% of the damage he was pumping out. Ouch.
Originally Posted by Durandro
That's a useful comment. I've been re-working my kit recently following some comments here, I've managed to overcap def so I'm looking to start shuffling enchants around a bit. I was thinking in terms of stam & dodge as being the major places I need to drop stuff and I think your comments confirm that (Pally Tank)
Originally Posted by Roana
something not to be overlooked here is that the OP did say that he was having mana issues. Those of you that are asking why he was using CH, remember CH is the most mana eff heal we have even if it never jumps.
Looking at your armory as you asked us to do: I think you are a little light on overall mana pool. Look to maybe get ure belt a gem socket (fairly inexpensive to have made) and also int to bracers is the more commonly used enchant there. Your spec looks good there are a few points moved around but those points everyone moves around a bit. I think a bit more mana and as others have said learn when to spam and when to just look to top off. When the raise claws message comes up spam heal and make sure earth shield and rip tide was refreshed before and you should drop him easily.
That is very very untrue, I will not even start to provide numbers! Just cast a heal on yourself and compare it to it's manacost and you will see that HW is in fact the most mana efficient spell if it does not overheal (actually I think it's RT but I'm unsure about that one), but as we all know HW is a fairly chunky heal and thus LHW often ends up being the most efficient spell with glyph and if the target have your ES.
Originally Posted by Subpar
Chainheal costs almost double that of LHW, but does about the same amount of healing. It just scales better with spellpower, but you'll only really notice a large difference at extreme levels. Best to stick with Healing Wave every few seconds, in my opinion.
i may have been a little crazy with the no jump....its with one jump it is the most mana effecient (even over LHW) and thats without the relic (or the LHW glyph) being taken into account. Elitist even has it. then take into account what u can get out of it with riptide's 25% addition or spec bonus.
Edit: remember you can glyph and relic either spell to be better then they are at base but lets look at the base numbers.
2nd Edit: those numbers were correct they are showing what i originally had stated: Single target healing unglyphed and not using a relic CH is more efficient. If you would like the data again the math is on EJ.com. I also untrained and took off my relic and tried and came out ABOUT the same but still was obvious CH is more efficient.
Last edited by Subpar; 02-25-2009 at 03:48 PM.
Subpar, provide the numbers or a link to EJ, because I don't believe one bit that CH provides more HPM on a single target. HW is and have always been the most mana efficient if you don't overheal, not to mention that HW and LHW can proc an orb on a crit giving back a good chunk of mana as well.
Originally Posted by hvidgaard
Shaman: Restoration - Elitist Jerks
and again your quote is including spec into this. Proc-ing the watershield is something you spec for. There are also a bunch of benefits for chain heal and HW and LHW that you can spec for, but at base CH is the most efficient. Also i wasnt really throwing a barb at your theory to use healing wave on that fight. More on the LHW people. If I had healing way up I would more than likely hit a HW up myself on that fight. LHW is very very very siuational for me and I cannot stress very enough. I can count on both hands how many times I've actually used it in raid or heroics other then to top someone off after a fight was over. I have at least been part of every configuration of raid available in game on my shammy. Again I'm not saying you cant spec, glyph, and relic to make HW or LHW more viable but in base CH is gonna be the winner most of the time. Also in raids very rarely are we going to be put in as MT or single target tank (even OT) heal assignments unless other classes that are geared are not available. Like it or not although they have made other spells in our spellbook more viable i feel my main job in a raid is "keep earth shield up on tank, keep water shield up on myself, keep earthliving on my weapon, and keep hitting chain heal to those that need it" 85% of the time.
Edit: once you go to the link click the "Major Abilities" section it will send you down to the list of spells. Enjoy, its a very good guide that when being built asks for a ton of sources and math and proof before posting. The first line under Chain Heal is word for word "Chain Heal is the shaman’s most efficient heal, even when it doesn’t hit all three targets."
Last edited by Subpar; 02-26-2009 at 08:32 AM.
If you look at the charts and get you calculater from the drawer you find that HW got an efficiency of 7.24 HPM and CH "only" reach 6.35 HPM. That is not not factoring in Improved Water Shield which any shaman healing outside 25man should pick up. If you look at how much healing is pumped trough HW wins hands down as well. There is no reason to use CH for anything else than healing multiple targets standing close together.
ok well looking at that if you keep riptide up and hit a chain heal that will make it 25% more effective. making the number 7.94 HPM. Again Im not saying in drek i wouldnt use the occasional HW. Also OP has about 15k mana if i remember right depending on his dps how long is he gonna keep up dropping 1k mana HW's or his rogue thats tanking the adds...If you would like to talk more about this PM me. I love talking shammy healing. I just don't want to get too far off track on the thread or make a thread dedicated to Eff. on shammy heals.
I'm soaking up all this information, so don't worry about taking it off track. Lol.
Also >_> I'm not a he. Just saying.
The more people I meet, the more I like my ferrets.
In that case I'll keep OTing ^^
the 25% bonus from RT is not a flat 25% more healing, so your figure is most likely off, but CH will hit as if you had 25% more SP. Can't remember the actual formula so can't give you the number. This is however not really relevant as you can only RT once every 6sec and RT is very mana ineffecient unless the HoT is allowed to tick the full 15sec.
The only real viable options for a shaman to single target heal is lots of crit + LHW + ES + glyph and Improved Water Shield or if your tank have enough health for a HW not to overheal by much, if any, then use HW.
I will respectfully disagree ith you assesment which is a good thing i think. Seeing as how in BC and before everyone will admit Shaman healing was spam CH and forget everything else its nice that they have made these other spells viable.
I leveled 1-80 resto to get healing down and be completely comfortable with resto once i hit 70 (and then 80). As I've said you can spec, glyph, and relic to make any one of the 3 spells more viable than the other. I chose CH as its the average duty of a shammy to group heal. It only makes sense that we do group heal considering what Pally's/druids/priests can do as a MT healer when compared to us. With that being said with my spec (feel free to look as i have my shammy attached to this account), its close to a cookie cutter but not quite the same, I have had no problems even after first hitting 80 shortly after launch healing any heroic in subpar gear (no pun intended) and gearing up and raid healing quite effectively (generally near the top if not in HPS, overall healing, and near bottom of the healers in Overs). Thats not to pat my own back but to say chain heal is very good if used as your primary heal and if it helps save a dps in a heroic, great!
As said I have used HW ALOT more than i did BC but not even a percent as much as CH, thats even in 5 mans. I don't think your wrong I dont think I'm wrong (at least i hope not ) just 2 diffrent ideas on how to do the same thing.
As Ive said though with maybe a small amount below average mana pool and about average mp5 on the OP SHE, in my honost opinion, is going to have a hard time spamming her HW and LHW on both the tank and the rogue (not sure thats the best strat here n e ways unless ure tank is a bit undergeared) and keeping them both up without tapping out her mana pool. Chain heal will hit them both (and if glyphed and relicced) and the other 2 dps if they end up taking a swipe or 2 from adds, along with only being ONE cast for the both of them. If your tank can take all adds ES and CH with the same glyph and relic setup should be plenty as it was for me while gearing up. If he takes them all you SHOULD get healing way up and HW him when drek "raises his claws menacingly", if your tank isnt raid geared up a bit and you dont think he can eat most of it with 7k-ish heals as im assuming ure Ch hits for. Either way as said can be done just depends on how you want to do it.
I don't dispute the fact that CH is better if there is a chance that it'll hit a 2nd/3rd target. It however just will not cut it for any serious tank healing - at least I'm not able to keep up the MT with it on say Sapp. It's too slow to use reactively and too expensive to spam.
If OP doesn't outgear what she's healing she must talent and glyph for it and as long as the tank is the only one taking damage LHW, if used properly, will be far better both effective HPM and HPS than any other spell we have available.
To OP, you can read much more about it here [Resto] LHW Spamming for Fun and Profit - Elitist Jerks
Chain Heal is why Shamans make great raid healers. Leave keeping the tank alive to a Discipline Priest or Holy Paladin, just spam those chains to the DPS or Offtank.
Though the great thing about raids is that people do bunch together more - namely the MT and the melee DPS. Actually getting the gear for a raid, however, is another story.
Durandro, it's just not always we have that luxery, and sometimes the other healers just don't have the skill or gear to handle it (well mostly skill I guess, don't know other healers much apart from they're much better at single target than I am) and I get assigned to do it.
Linking a LHW thread from elitist jerks after talking about HW doesnt change the fact that LHW is faster but is only gonna heal tanks at lower gear levels through trash. There are overly easy Relic's available to make chain heal even cost less if thats your issue and even single tank target heal the MT way more effectively. In raid its nothing to even comment on because if your raid doesnt have a MT healer better then resto shammy its probably going to get ugly anyways. As I've said i dont disagree if you have the mana pool to do it HW on single target is going to hit much much harder (that the whole point of it), however even EJ has shown that LHW is much less mana effecient and not a viable option IMO to even waste your time. From the thread that you linked:
Chain Heal is still a good spell. If you can hit 3+ targets with CH, then CH is generally the most useful spell to cast. Building up a healing set with 'normal' healing stats (i.e. Haste/mp5) is recommended since some raid fights are simply better handled with CH spam.
Beginning of first paragraph:
The new talents introduced for Wrath of the Lich King and implemented in the 3.0.2 patch are designed to round out shaman healing from straight Chain Heal (CH) spam to a more rounded mix of single target heals and CH spam, though blue comments suggest that they consider AoE healing our niche (just as tank healing is the pally's niche).
Also a few posts down you can see the mana cost is lower per cast but since "spamming LHW" as the post suggests is a faster cast to get less per cast look at the Mp5 usage on the chart so mana effiency still does come into play here. You can also see he isnt even taking into account spec for healing way or tidal waves. Also OP in that forum is talking about taking into account ES procs on MT as hes spamming LHW but not when spamming chain heal to get his numbers? Seems a bit crazy. I can cast ES on the MT and still heal the raid so those numbers can be included in CH or any heal.
I have to agree with Durandro, we are not MT healers as a primary function. Ive 2 manned one nighted naxx 10 and Main tank healed and its possible yes but isnt smart or effecient? No. We were talking about HW which i believe is viable as raid geared. I however consider raid geared resto shammies to be those geared towards CH anyone that raid gears otherwise could have rolled a pally. I do keep my HW totem in my bag just in case but I dont even have the LHW totem as I dont glyph for it because we are still CH spammers in our best roll. Even said and shown in the LHW thread (if you keep reading that thread they argue for or against some of the OP's original points some he makes valid points others he seems like he wants to pad the numbers). I will say after reading the post I will probably give it a try on say patchwerk or Inst Resuv but all in all I'm geared and built for Ch and gonna stick that way. There are very few straight tank and spank fights out there where we are not going to be doing our raid a great injustice by not doing what our gear is even built to do. The EJ post you linked also shows we should be wearing ele gear for this LHW build also, this is a sign. I also hope with that being said that noone doing this regularly runs with an elemental shaman as it would be a hard pill to swallow that he is getting rolled against by a resto because he wants to do what even the charts on that forum show we cannot do as effeciently as other classes.
Edit: as proof to my theory that you can make anything sound good but that dont mean you should do it [Restoration] Dual Wield Chain Heal and You - Elitist Jerks . As the Theorycrafting think tank I have linked earlier already states Duel welding resto is NOT a good option because of what you have to give up. Look at this guys math and it makes it look atractive because you CAN do it. That just doesnt mean you SHOULD do it. Also any raid lead consistantly assigning a shammy to MT heal needs to look up numbers and classes a bit me thinks.
Last edited by Subpar; 02-27-2009 at 09:30 AM.
Thank you ^_^
Originally Posted by hvidgaard
The more people I meet, the more I like my ferrets.
I'd say the best role for Resto Shamans is melee healing. The armour bonus proc from Ancestoral Healing is actually useful to melee, and if you focus the Chain Heal on the tank you can help out with healing him/her as well to a limited degree.
But as the main tank healer? I don't think I'd have enough MP5 to keep that up for more then a minute. Give me a mana regeneration talent like Paladins or Priests and maybe, but as it is we have to make do with MP5 and careful use of the 5 second rule.