3.1 Changes to DKs

[Satorri]

It already can and is done, though if they make some specific talents function well with dual wielding that would be cool. I wouldn't want to see a whole tree relegated to one side or the other though.

[NexsusTheFrostDeathKnight]

I got in a small test in between crashes >.> despite not being able to see cooldowns, Blood boil is a quick aggro grab without diseases, and generates more aggro with diseases up, I see no cause to complain about pewstilence, it'll be fun to grab howling blast glyph and go nuts with chillbains kite tanking.

[Rennadrel]

Well there goes the hopes of having a dual wielding DK tank raiding and fighting Razuvious on heroic mode without getting killed again like what happened tonight if they are going to nerf getting at Howling Blast cause really, they are the best tanks with two weapons because of the huge amount of avoidance they are getting from two weapons. I had every intention of making my DK a DW tank but if Blizz is going to do this to people, I won't even bother cause I really want to dual wield and really laugh at the tanks who are using 2 handers and going for more AoE over being a single target tank. If you raid, boss fights are far more up a DW DK tanks ally then any class using a sword and board or a DK with a two hander because the avoidance is there.

[Littlejoe3000]

<irrational rant>
Either the damage reduction OR the tier switch would have probably been more than sufficient to effectively cripple the DW specs; this heavyhanded change will have a massive effect on the specs available to Frost tanks as well. Want to tank as Frost? Go 51 points or you might as well go unholy. Blood/Frost hybrid? LOL.

That makes me laugh that somebody would cry about the fact that if dk's wanna tank that they have to go all the way down frost. Its fair due to the fact druids have to go down feralm wars and pallys prot. It doesn seem fair that you can cross down both trees. If your going to tank you should be stuck with only one try like every other tanking class. Asking for more than that is just unreasonable

[AK404]

That makes me laugh that somebody would cry about the fact that if dk's wanna tank that they have to go all the way down frost. Its fair due to the fact druids have to go down feralm wars and pallys prot. It doesn seem fair that you can cross down both trees. If your going to tank you should be stuck with only one try like every other tanking class. Asking for more than that is just unreasonable

Except that druids can't tank as balance or resto, paladin's can't tank as ret or holy, and warriors can't tank as fury or arms. If you haven't noticed, DKs are able to effectively tank with every tree; that sort of variety makes the DK a more enjoyable tank class overall.

However, while I understand Blizzard's desire to force players go deep into certain specs, I am ambivalent about the idea of designing a tank around a single tree then deciding what to do with the remaining 19 points.

[Satorri]

Well, that's not entirely true. Warriors can tank with Fury/Arms, Pallies with Holy/Ret, etc, provided they have the gear, but like a DK without tank talents they can't stand up to a raid boss the same way, and in general they are far squishier than a full fledged tank.

I agree though, that the DK is an enjoyable class for having several ways to do the same thing.

Also, don't confuse incentives in deep trees for "forcing." You get positive rewards for forgoing the amazing talents in other trees to commit to a single theme, though you can also split trees and get more of the ground work. The idea with every talent tree currently is that each tree has a central theme and synergy, and while you can find synergy between trees, they're not often as good as playing true to a single focus. The 0/32/39 spec was the only exception to that. And Blizz is also devoted to making sure that there is no ONE TRUE SPEC; no spec that everyone thinks is the best by far and you'd be foolish to do anything else. That isn't fun since the highest levels of raiding get back to the "why do it any way other than the best?" world. That's not fun, it's sheep culture.

[Littlejoe3000]

Well, that's not entirely true. Warriors can tank with Fury/Arms, Pallies with Holy/Ret, etc, provided they have the gear, but like a DK without tank talents they can't stand up to a raid boss the same way, and in general they are far squishier than a full fledged tank.

There is no way any other class can come close to tanking anything other then going all the way 51 points into a tanking tree. It is unsat a warrior going halfway down prot then hafl down arms. Thier are too many talent points lost to be even able to tank anything without gettig smashed. I find it unfair that dks can spredthier points out and be a dam good tank and still be able to put out WAY more dps them my prot war. So not only is frost tree a tank tree but alot of dk's use it as a great dps tree? So dk's do wars job and do more dps? How is that fair that im FORCED down prot when a dk can half ass it and do just as good as i can?

However, while I understand Blizzard's desire to force players go deep into certain specs, I am ambivalent about the idea of designing a tank around a single tree then deciding what to do with the remaining 19 points.

And wars are FORCED to get SW for aoe aggro, we are nothing without it in aoe. So if wars have to go down to keep up then i dont see why dk's complain about it.

[Feanorr]

Littlejoe3000: you obviously dont know how DK and DK's trees work; frost isnt "the" tank tree, cause DK dont have a tank tree; by design. Blizzard wanted it that way; if you dont agree with that, go make a suggestion post in blizzard forum, that's not the subject here.

Edited it to be less... rude.

[Krenian]

Let's keep it civil guys...

If people are apparently 'misinformed' about certain ways certain classes work, please inform them in a proper manner. Also, let's keep it clean. No need to use swearing to get your point across.

Currently, if I remember well, there is a build for Warriors that outthreats and outdpses a lot of the tanks and it doesn't go fully down the Prot talent tree to get it done. Yes, you lose out on some core AoE attacks but this is a way to show that even Warriors can do the same if they are creative.

People need to realize that Death Knights need to spec into the cooldowns as well as gear themselves a bit differently to tank or to DPS. People seem to think that they can magically do 4K+ DPS even in full tanking mode. It is my experience that a lot of people get this high because they respec to get the maximum amount of damage in the minimum amount of mitigation tools taken to 'tank'.

Death Knights need to do specific things to tank as well as they do. I find it amusing that people must argue that if one class does it this way then they are right to do it that way as well.

Also, as I'm on the subject, all tanking classes seriously need to pull back and stop for a second and think for a moment. What is it that you want? You want to be unique, and yet you complain when another class has a slight advantage over your own.

WoW, as much as it's going towards a homoginization, should NEVER give anyone the same advantage. That's not the point of the game. The game is to play a character class that you want to play due to it's playstyle and it's feel. Not because you just want to and tanking falls down to just who you have when.

Yes, all classes should be able to tank, AoE tank, or mitigate magical damage just as well. But in no way should every single class in the game have the same skills when it comes to every tanking fight in the game. They should be able to do it, but some classes should be dedicated as a better class for the job.

There's nothing wrong with everyone having a shot to be able to do their job competantly. However there becomes an issue when everyone demands to be equal to other classes because theirs is doing lower. Can you not do your job? Yes, you still can. Is it as efficient as another class? No. Maybe the class has benefits yours doesn't.

The day they decide to put everyone on an equal footing on everything, is the day they shove every class together and call it a Waruiadin Knight. And trust me, Blizzard is FAR off of this.

[Rennadrel]

I just don't like the idea of DK's being FORCED to tank with 2 handers, not everyone wants to use a slow weapon just for more stamina. I witnessed a DK tank dualwielding Red Sword of Courage and Infantry Assault Blade successfully tank Instructor Razuvious in 25 man Naxx last night and both Prot Pallies and Warriors get swamped by him easily even with mass heals.

[Krenian]

In the case of Dual Wielding versus Two handers for tanking, there's enough information here to give a solid case for Dual Wielding just fine and dandy. There has been also enough information out there to accept the fact that there are people who will dual wield and there are people who will use their two handers and refuse to believe that it's plausible. Feel free to play whichever build you want. Both have been proven that the damage you take from dual wielding is not very significant and both can do just fine and pull out similar threat.

[Bryenne]

... only concern I can see is that icy touch MUST be used some points in order to activate the tanking sigil, But that won't be an extreme strain on these rotations, after all, it's a 30 second buff if I recall.

1st rotation: HB, BB, BB, HB
2nd rotation: IT, PS, Pest, BB, HB

will establish aoe threat, active blade barrier, and proc your sigil + talons pretty quickly after the group reaches you. After that, just tab target and repeat the 2nd rotation until the group is dead, more than enough to let your dps go aoe crazy. It's a nice easy flowing rotation, about the same as what I use now (open with 2nd rotation, move into 1st, back to 2nd).

I normally run with a priest, who always tosses up a shield prior to pulls, so proccing the sigil on the 2nd rotation works fine for me. Already defense capped without it anyway...

[Geofram]

There's a lot of sensationalizing of changes, and I can appreciate that people aren't thrilled about the big changes to the class that have become fairly routine, but I have yet to see them make big rearrangements like this that haven't been for the better.

I know I'm brutally ripping this out of context, but I think that what we're forgetting in our dislike of major changes is that relative to everybody else, DKs are still in infancy. Does anybody else remember the major talent revamps of the 1.06-1.11 era? We've grown to dislike major changes because Blizz hasn't made major changes to most of the classes in years (with the exception of the xpacs), but DKs don't have the 4 years of theorycrafting, play and player feedback that every other class has. I don't see this being the last major change DKs, but I do see them coming out of a few of these revamps looking alot better and sitting in closer parity to the rest of the classes, which might not be the rosiest picture for DKs (who doesn't like to be OP?) but its gonna end up making the class better and more fun to play.

Yes, some of the changes suck, (the change on the IBF glyph is a major kick in the nuts and I'm gonna miss the pest dmg as much as the rest of ya'll) but lets take a little longer view instead of crying apocalypse. Don't forget, we probably still have 2+ months of 3.1 on the PTR so it could be quite a different beast when it goes live.

Not everything is roses right now, but I think its not as bad as some people are thinking it will be.

EDIT: I can't spell

[Bryenne]

In the case of Dual Wielding versus Two handers for tanking, there's enough information here to give a solid case for Dual Wielding just fine and dandy. There has been also enough information out there to accept the fact that there are people who will dual wield and there are people who will use their two handers and refuse to believe that it's plausible. Feel free to play whichever build you want. Both have been proven that the damage you take from dual wielding is not very significant and both can do just fine and pull out similar threat.

^ That.

Small caveat though, since I've tried tanking with a big 2H and DW, I've found DW to require more attention to gearing detail, and not as much flexibility with enchants and gems. Obviously, without the SSG rune, you need to make up the 25 defense and extra stam somewhere, but that's certainly not something that will break a spec. Also, I've found my dps to be better when in a non-tanking role with a 2H spec than a DW tank spec - this argument will be void come 3.1 and dual specs, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

[Warrhawk]

The World of Warcraft Armory

thats me. been reading forums without registering for a few months but i feel like stepping into the conversation. i usually respec every few days, sometimes up to 3 times in 1 day. ive been specs and combinations in every tree and have both tanked 2h and for the past month dual wield. my last changeover was from 2h X/51/X to dw 10/51/10, to the spec i am now 27/39/5, kind of a spec i made with the things i wanted.

ive been having no problem holding single target or multitarget aggro, tps is 6k with spikes up to 8.5-9k. almost every howling blast or icy touch are killing machined and i can still solo alot of things well (which i also enjoy doing when im not raiding). against 2h.. my expertise drops a bit because i 2h with Inevitable Defeat - Item - World of Warcraft
(inevitable defeat) but dw gives me enough defense to use some dps +expertise/hit gear. overall i'm enjoying this spec alot but with 3.1 i'm probably going back to 2h until they buff dw tanking a bit

P.S.- on armory, my trash trinket is gossamer on switch, hp in fp is like 29.3ish or so and with gossamer its about 30.8? something like that.

[Sitharien]

Man, the latest build is looking like another round of nerfs.

Frost Presence, WotN, VB, and yet another kick in the pants to HB.... 10 second cool down.

I took the hit and changed from my Warrior to a DK for my guild, so we had a magic resist tank in T8, and now my old Warrior will have more built in magic resistance. I would really love to blame PvP for these changes, where most class nerfs come from, but the fact is, the latest build's changes are aimed squarely at PvE.

I do hope things change by the time the patch actually goes live, but every build just seems to add to the class nerf list for us.

[nips]

Dont worry to much Sitharien i dont think all the nerfs will go through. Looks like they are testing how much dmg we take if we got the same avoidance as warriors/paladins and cant use our cd's.

The thing that annoyed me the most was not realy the nerf though, but how unbalanced the 3 talent tree's became. If it turns out we do fine with low avoidance etc my guess the next step is to balance the talent tree's and giving us some smaller buffs.

[Satorri]

Yeah, I'm trying to keep optimistic with Nips. I'm trusting that the current changes are testing. That doesn't mean that they'll be completely tossed (though they may), but at least they'll be dialed back to an intermediary to test.

Personally, I like how the trees have landed as far as building specs is concerned. I'm slow to test some of this though since I don't have a lot of time to play and they seem to be looking to make some big moves.

Here's hoping we land in a better place, even if it is not strictly a buff. Cleaner function and balanced abilities is really the best we can hope for.

[Krenian]

I wouldn't hold your breaths for any drastic changes to the nerfs that were included right now in the PTR.

DK tanking, simply put, is Powerful. Perhaps a bit too powerful. If you follow the Health and Cooldown threads Satrina has posted up on both the WoW forums and the Tankspot forums, you will see that Death Knights nearly double the survivability if you activate all your cooldowns properly through a fight. This does give us a very big advantage on most fights and anyone who is crying out about how we were only good for one fight is kidding themselves and trying to rationalize the data.

The facts are this:

- Our cooldowns were very potent which allowed us to live, yes, but it also made us able to trivialize a fight so easily by activating the cooldowns in a manner in which you would always have a reduction in damage. There has to be some times in the process of a boss fight where the risk of your life being ended is there. Otherwise there is no point to the game and it gets to be far too easy.

- We had strong DPS as tanks. Stronger than some people think. We are the one class that seems to be naturally able to dps even if we are in a tanking spot. It's amusing to see people say that the other classes can do that and I will agree that warriors could easily keep up with us and Paladins as well. However, two glaring problems are seen here:

1) Paladins in Naxxramas have been doing great due to their undead strikes. If they're not undead there's a glaring problem that is seen immediately. Their dps goes down dramatically.

2) Warriors need to spec a certain way to be doing the damage people have been seeing. This comes at a very harsh cost: the loss of an AoE skill as well as a passive damage shield spike.

Death Knights didn't have this restriction. Slap on DPS gear and we could keep up with some of the better skilled classes. This was again a glaring issue.

Don't get me wrong, these are solid nerfs and I'm as displeased as any other individual. It isn't fun getting nerfed at all. However it is the facts of life and the evidence is honestly there. We need some fixes as we're really too good of a tanking class right now. It sucks that they're hurting our cooldowns because intentionally, that's what Blizzard wanted us to be but they realized that Cooldowns are potent skills that could really hurt encounters in the future and had to address it now. Better to address it now than when we are really comfortable and they have to revamp the whole thing.

3.1 is the major patch after Wrath has been released folks. The idea of not having any change at all happen is naive and silly. Just brace yourselves: If it comes that Blizzard hurt the Death Knight class too much, they will definitely revisit the changes.

Roll with the punches.

[Sitharien]

Nah, I am trying to be positive as well, and Tony is right, we do more damage as tanks. My only rebuttal to that is that we have no threat modifiers on most of our abilities, so Damage + Frost Presence is all we have. We need to do higher damage to compensate.

I guess my biggest problem with this whole mess is we all know Blizzard. When they mess up a class, it stays messed up for a very long time before they fix it. PvE Arms is a good example there. That spec went through an entire expansion as the red-headed step-child for raiding. And we need not even bring up Ret Paladins pre 3.0. They were a joke.

But still, a tank meant to tank with avoidance and magic resistance is still being dropped to a physical mitigation tanks levels in both respects. The hit to Frost Presence is kind of made back with the change to Blade Barrier, of course you won't have it active 100% of the time, due to its dependency on Blood Rune activation, but it hides a 10% avoidance cut. It's truly sad, is all I am saying.