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Thread: 3.1 Changes to DKs

  1. #21
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    yeah its pretty much what i did although i did subtract 10% miss making it a (15x0.9) 13.5% chance. Realy does not make a big difference and i think i rounded it to 60 tbh, but i was curious if i was way off and what people thought about such a rp increase.

  2. #22
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    Glyph of Icebound Fortitude -- Your Icebound Fortitude now always grants at least 30% damage reduction, regardless of your defense skill. (Old: Your Icebound Fortitude costs no runic power)

    This one is probably the worse change tanking wise. There is nothing like having to make sure you have 20 runic power on hand at all times just incase you need to hit an emergency button.

  3. #23
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    Oh, the IBF glyph is a complete kick in the balls to tanks. It was one of our best tanking glyphs before, now it's been relegated to a pvp-only glyph.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    I dont see how it's a nerf to blood aoe; in fact I see a buff for blood aoe cause BB got buffed and blood got some BB talents (+60% damage).
    The nerf was removing the damage from Pesti, forcing us to use BB if we want ae threat for more than 2 targets out of a blood rune.

    DnD + IT + PS + Pesti + BB = 7 runes, 3 bloods. During the entire first rotation, only aggro on the main target is DnD, IT, and PS; first HS you get to use is the second B of the second rotation. That's a nerf in my book. In the past, Pesti provided more threat while it spread diseases, and now it doesn't. Also, it increases the number of GCDs we have to use in order to accomplish the same thing; once again, less snap threat. Fury warriors and Ret Pallies are almost guaranteed to pull quick aggro in ae packs, now, unless they gimp their rotation.

    I never really felt like I needed BB as a blood tank. Sometimes in a large ae pack I'd work in into my second rotation, but more often i found myself disease juggling (which, especially without Epidemic, was an elegant, fun way to play that will also be a lot less viable in 3.1).

    I found I only really used DnD a second time as a blood tank if another group joined in or in a gauntlet type setting (i.e. Skadi). The fact that I was spending three talent points to get a lower cd on DnD just for those situations was one of the factors that made me leave blood for frost, tbh.

    Of course, I'm used to tab-spamming, as I played a feral tank all through TBC, when Swipe only hit 3 targets and maul only hit one. If I go back to blood, which I might, I still doubt I'll use BB; insteady, I'll DnD, IT, PS, Pesti, then tab spam HS and Oblit or DS to get my runes over to DD. BB'll still be a waste of a rune in a 3-4 mob pack unless they buff the damage by like 4-5x, because we still HAVE to spread our diseases with Pesti to make full use of the HS cleave. I'll probably end up burning a ton more runes on DnD, too, and end up tanking like a pally
    Last edited by Eemo; 02-25-2009 at 11:34 AM. Reason: typo.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by visualdeity View Post
    Oh, the IBF glyph is a complete kick in the balls to tanks. It was one of our best tanking glyphs before, now it's been relegated to a pvp-only glyph.
    100% agree. My favorite glyph was turned into dust In addition why the hell did they nerf HB damage? They already moved it to 51 pt talent! They have done the same to gargoyle, but they have increased the dmg of it.

    I have to admit I see completly retarded nerfs to Frost Tanks, with some not necesery buffs in PvP to the whole class.

    So far looking at those Patch Notes I'm sad Orc Death Knight.

  6. #26
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    I think hb might get buffed a bit again before it hits live tbh. Blizz tends to overnerf on the ptr when trying new stuff. Dw hybrid build needed a nerf, but i aggre making it a 51point talen and nerfing it to the ground seems a bit harsh. Lets just hope they come to their senses before it hits live

  7. #27
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    Tried the new scourge strike on ptr today. Unbuffed the damage is almost up 1k

  8. #28
    @Eemo
    Blood Tap is your answer.
    I agree with Feanorr, I think it's a buff.
    Check-Raise, always.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoaD! View Post
    @Eemo
    Blood Tap is your answer.
    No, it completely isn't. While Blood Tap will give you a Death rune from a Blood rune, it will not let you use 7 runes in your opening rotation.

    Additionally, it turns a BLOOD rune into a death rune, not a Frost or an Unholy. Blood runes are the resource in demand here. To drop a DnD, spread diseases with a pesti, and then use BB in one rotation, you need to have carryover Death runes from Death Rune Mastery (from prior mobs), in which case you can only spread one disease.

    Even skipping the IT or the PS and spreading just one disease won't get you 3 bloods which you NEED to do a DnD, spread diseases, and BB in one rotation; your initial ae threat has gone from one rotation to two. The end.

    Unless you have Imp Unholy Presence, which you WON'T as deep blood, that's a long gap you're staring at between the pesti and the BB.

    Long-term aoe threat is of lesser importance, as it's only rarely required. Morbidity (and probably a glyphed DnD) give you that. The most problematic point in ae threat generation is the initial pull, due to trigger happy dps. These changes, along with the HB changes, nerf that initial ae threat by delaying damage into your second rotation if you're blood and flat out stripping it if you're frost (or at least severely restricting your spec decisions to keep it in a nerfed form.)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Tried the new scourge strike on ptr today. Unbuffed the damage is almost up 1k
    [sarcasm] Now there's a needed change! [/sarcasm]

    I don't get this change at all. Scourge Strike already ignored armor. I haven't really seen anyone complaining about its damage.

    Honestly, if the changes go live in their current form there isn't any reason to spec anything other than Unholy in PvE, for DPS or tanking.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eemo View Post
    Long-term aoe threat is of lesser importance, as it's only rarely required. Morbidity (and probably a glyphed DnD) give you that. The most problematic point in ae threat generation is the initial pull,
    Then do Dnd, BB. Pest doesn't need to be up yet for BB to do damage now, it won't be the max damage but it is quick damage. And more damage quicker than we could do before.

    Then do IT, PS, Pest etc.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eemo View Post
    No, it completely isn't. While Blood Tap will give you a Death rune from a Blood rune, it will not let you use 7 runes in your opening rotation.
    It's wrong; Blood tap will get you exactly what you need, a 3rd blood rune. Yes it will transform a blood into a death to use it as a blood but it doesnt matter. What matter is that it will transform a USED rune into a ready-to-use one.

    i.e. DND-IT-PS-Pesti > Both blood rune are on reuse, blood tap > a death rune is instantly usable > BB

    Here is the description of Blood tap: "Immediately activates a Blood Rune and temporarily converts it into a Death Rune".
    We dont care that it's a death rune, but what matter for this use is the "immediately activate".
    The only problem is the 1min cd.


    But, you say your problem is the initial agro; well not for me. DnD is enough for initial agro (as long as all mob are here at start); my problem as blood tank for AOE agro is after the first rotation, when DND isnt ready to use.

  13. #33
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    ^^Bloodtap - BB ftw

    Frost rotation. DnD-It-Ps-Pes- Blood tap -BB. This works great for initial aggro. Drop deathchill/howling blast next and your good to go. The problem is definitely with snap aggro AFTER the first pull, say, un-planned for adds. You have nothing if DnD is on Cd. I picked up hungering cold for this. If everything is on Cd the only thing I MIGHT have is runic power. Spread frost fever and wait a sec or 2 and howling blast again. Or DnD when its ready. With chill from the grave an the IT glyph; this works OK, but not ideal.

    I was definitely looking foward to Frost tanking with Unholy Blight and Howling Blast, but this obviously was not to be. Screw Pes damage for frost tanks. The extra BB dmg will make up for it, and as a bonus since it now hits targets without diseases, can help with that snap aggro problem if only a little. With death runes you should almost always have a BB on standby.

    /rant
    Anyway, Dosnt solve our problems. Moving HB to 51 is horrible. They wanted to promote Frost and Blood specs? I think this will backfire. Im a Frost tank now, and looking at an unholy build with Frigid dreadplate. 3 diseases, xtra magic dmg for my DnD, and bonus Disease dmg. Yeah it dosnt have that snap aggro but neither does frost with a HB on Cooldown. Im holding my breath this spec will be viable,though I have yet to test it with the new trees. Something like...

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9614

    I have a feeling this is doomed from the start, but DAMN I want UB and FD at the same time! (BLIZZ FIX THE EBON PLAGUE MESS!)

    Though the Pestilence glyph looks awesome, and some things about this patch seem great (HB no runes?), Hopefully they make some changes to this before it drops. Otherwise it seems to me it only makes Unholy more attractive, or in the very least, I will be forced to keep my current build (with the addition of the new improved frost presence if BotN drops to 3 points.)

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    Last edited by traitore; 02-26-2009 at 11:09 PM. Reason: edited to add /rant

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eemo View Post
    [sarcasm] Now there's a needed change! [/sarcasm]

    I don't get this change at all. Scourge Strike already ignored armor. I haven't really seen anyone complaining about its damage.

    Honestly, if the changes go live in their current form there isn't any reason to spec anything other than Unholy in PvE, for DPS or tanking.
    It's the ptr... getting to use op abilities are part of the fun
    Going to be interesting to see where it all ends up on live though.

  15. #35
    I am curious about frost tanking in particular 3.1 ...despite my outrage against Duawl wield changes... primarily my Howling Blast now a 51pointer, I can test out my mark of blood/frost strike tank build... But I'll give ghostcrawler some slack as he has adressed concerns and post some theroies that frost could become a DW Tree....

    This aside... With Howling Blast moved deeper into frost and damage overall reduced, I'm glad that howling blast will recieve a icy touch applicator glyph.
    Think of the simple rotations!
    Dnd? Howling Blood oil, Howling boil boil howling boil etc. Simpler rotations, And Higher damage from Blood Boil, maybe a few points in dark conviction can see AoE crit tanking buffed...

    That's my newb-tank theory anyway,
    I would like cooldown on HB removed if it stays 51.

    Also Frost dedicated to become DW tanking tree....
    I'd like that personnally.

  16. #36
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    Simple Solution for Frost

    I was thinking about the same thing, Nexsus - what will my new rotation as Frost be? I see a bunch of complaints about lack of snap aggro for aoe, but that's because the Frosties are still thinking like Unholies and relying on DnD. Just OPEN with Howling Blast, instantly dropping frost fever on all the mobs (assuming you have the glyph, don't see why you won't), BB, BB, HB again. You can have a ton of upfront aggro (at range!) on all mobs in 4 GCDs. Leaves you a couple GCDs to FS/DC to burn runic power. Icy Touch -> PS -> Pest can come in on the 2nd rotation, to proc talons and put up a 2nd disease. Follow up with BB and HB, repeat until dead.

    DnD should never come into the equation for a full frost tank, it's a waste of 3 runes and a GCD for less threat than HB + BB.

  17. #37
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    I'm fairly certain the changes they've been doing are working towards removing the CD, though I'm a little surprised it wasn't done at the same time.

    Without the CD, and with the old KM and popular dual wield builds, it was doing WAY too much damage. With the deep frost move, a slight reduction in damage, and the other tree buffs adjusted, it should work a lot better if they take the CD off. After they played with removing the CD in 3.0.9 on the PTR they came to a head that they want to remove the CD for the sake of smoother rotations, but the situation wasn't right yet.


    There's a lot of sensationalizing of changes, and I can appreciate that people aren't thrilled about the big changes to the class that have become fairly routine, but I have yet to see them make big rearrangements like this that haven't been for the better.

    It may change what you're doing, or what your min/max math had you pleasantly applying, but none of it is doomsday. From my time on the PTR so far, the frost tree builds so much more pleasantly now, and there are little rough spots ironed out of Unholy's tree for point spending and spec choices. While I'm sad that dual wielding has lost anything that feels distinct about it, I have to appreciate that the ground is pretty even between dual wielding and 2-handers in terms of output. I'm always happy when the min/maxers are scratching their heads.

    Now, I was initially very concerned about the pestilence dmg removal for the sake of hurting our initial aggro profile, but as I've been playing with it, the buff to PS in pve (sad for no hot removing but that was all about pvp where we are already gods) makes it pretty much a non-issue. BB is not the counter balance, it's just an AoE threat buff, that's all, and it is also now a decent Blood alternative. The thing this will really do is balance that while we can Pest when we need to, you will want to be a lot more selective about when you do, since it is purely functional now.

    If you have concerns or complaints, do the best thing for all of us and go be a good tester. That means go on the ptr, actually test and play with the changes, and give constructive feedback. That means not, "this sucks!" Give your experieneces, reactions, and notice what works well and what does not. Enumerate details, not blind value judgments. If you think HB is being nerfed, go play with it, see it for what it is now, and tell Blizz how it is hurting your ability to tank with specifics. Griping here about what you think this means will accomplish little, if anything. PTRs are up for just this reason, to test out Blizz's ideas with a lot of people and a lot of different points of view.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryenne View Post
    I was thinking about the same thing, Nexsus - what will my new rotation as Frost be? I see a bunch of complaints about lack of snap aggro for aoe, but that's because the Frosties are still thinking like Unholies and relying on DnD. Just OPEN with Howling Blast, instantly dropping frost fever on all the mobs (assuming you have the glyph, don't see why you won't), BB, BB, HB again.

    This is my general thought, I've found frost tanking to me because of it's crit-based 'flow' and gives a sense of a prominent pattern, killing machine seems to be a "hit howling blast and get 100% aggro!" for me, and I've always found it awkward to spread out icy with pestilence, and I would need that DnD at the start of the fight to maintain the aggro untill Howling blast.

    I'm downloading the ptr on my slow end of the month bandwidth but once I'm in I'll definately be testing out AoE blood/unholy blight tank builds, along with taking a good look at howling blast.... hopefully the glyph won't be too costly.

    But overall, I imagine that Howling blast auto frost fever will be deslicous,
    Howling blast, diseases are up, blood boil, blood boil, wait for killing machine, howling blood boil, only concern I can see is that icy touch MUST be used some points in order to activate the tanking sigil, But that won't be an extreme strain on these rotations, after all, it's a 30 second buff if I recall.

  19. #39
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    Prt sever is pretty much down each time i try to log in... but tbh i'm not conserned about aoe threat as frost. As it is on live i'm always miles ahead of other tanks/dps anyways. Atm i'm realy more conserned on what i should replace to get the new hb glyph

    Single target threat is boosted aswell as rp generation, so all in all it's good changes for frost tanks using a 2h. As for dw frost tanks.... well it's about time they trow them a bone

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    ... as for dw frost tanks.... well it's about time they trow them a bone

    Cosmetically, I would like to DW tank, ghostcrawler has said in a "DW nerf...intended?" -thread on dps forums, that he is pleased with the 'all trees can tank' that he in an off topic fashion threw the idea of frost becoming a tree dedicated to DW, and that blood and unholy could primarily be 2Hs.
    I hope he looks into this, I like the idea of a DWing, spell oriented DK tank.

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