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Thread: Ghostcrawler gives homework!

  1. #81
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    Simply decreasing bursts or making magic attacks physical would be kinda boring although it's a solution. Unfortunately I fel in love with the idea of blocking magical damage.
    Possibly a block might count for more than just it's block value against magic. For example if armor reduction is applied on blocked magical attacks instead of block value. This would ofc bring a high need for block chance on items for special encounters.

  2. #82
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    MEH Ideas
    Lots of good ideas about adjusting block, I won't repeat them.

    For pallies another alternative would be adding a passive component to the auras that would add additional resistances to you only.

    You could then add a magic mitigation component to spell reflect that when coupled with another small cd would be able to survive a breath.

    Block Scaling
    These would only be bandaids, the real issue is that its very difficult to scale block to actually be useful on bosses without trivializing encounters. Either adding a % of total damage along with a flat rate, or proc'ing armor ( or some other percentage based effect) could be added as a long term solution.

    Raid boss ideas
    I suppose you could do some sort of boss doing one attack with one single hit roll that acts as mulitple small attacks which are blockable to simulate the one hit tank killer.

  3. #83
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    Those are some really nice changes they made for paladins in the PTR. Not that I expect them all to stay the same, but cmon, give warrior tanks some of that.

    One thing they could do for paladins is roll the resistance auras all into Devotion Aura.

    Still not sure how that would help Warriors.

  4. #84
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    Devotion aura with resistances... how about commanding shout with resistances, or a separate aura/shout altogether?

    Edit: By which I mean, a resist-all aura, as opposed to the +130 single resist auras which I don't have a problem with and should remain.
    Mourning Nightfall since 2.4.2.

  5. #85
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    I was thinking that.

    But then they'd have to make shouts last longer than 2-3 minutes.

    And they don't seem to want to do that.

  6. #86
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    would a glyph for spell reflection increasing spell damage reduction by some % be too much ?

  7. #87
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    even if the dragon's breathes were physical druids would be best suited for them due to the larger armor mitigation. If it could be blocked, we can't block for the difference for 45k hp pre-hp debuff and 70k sarth fully buffed. Even if we would dodge/parry the attack, it wouldn't help because "avoidances is unreliable"

    I feel like GC's later conversation about different bosses is patronizing. Warriors and Paladins would be less concerned about sarth if there were clear cut hard bosses best suited for us. There isn't. There is no trend saying there will. Thats why we keep the conversation alive. Well, atleast one of the reasons.
    I remember The Beets - Killer Tofu Tour

  8. #88
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    I read this as them simply saying that from there standpoint( or a coding standpoint). It would be allot easier for them to simply rework a couple boss mechanics from current and future content, then to completely rebuild any class mechanics such as block, or balance hps etc. Im sure this is most likely because of the usual stuff of everything they do to fix raiding affecting pvp, solo play etc. Thinking about it i know that even now my prot war tears casters apart in pvp, adding any additional anti magic abilities might make them gods there. And even if they disabled/changed some things to not work in bg's this does nothing for world pvp, etc..etc..

    So its tougher for solutions than it might outwardly seem from a toon standpoint. Descaling hps across the board for druids/dks would simply leave them as being lessor tanks, because of the loss of block/parry.
    Giving stronger magic defenses to war/pallys to make up for hp deficiencies would most likely OP them for other parts of the game.
    Completely reworking block or resistance or any basic game mechanic is probably way more work from a coding stand point then we can imagine, and could effect/change so many things that its not something they would want to put the resources into. Prior to say an xpack release anyway.

    So is there a way mathematically to change a boss like sarth3, where it becomes doable by all tank types, but doesn't trivialize the event in exchange. How do you balance for the potential diff of tanks being say 15k in hps, but better mitigation on the low end.
    Say you changed all magic burst damage to do % of health rather than a fixed amount. Bosses hitting faster for slightly less damage. Healer regen cut to a point where inefficient soak tank healing could very well cause end of fight OOM. Tight enough enrage timers so that healer stacking becomes difficult at best. Now soup all that stuff together in a balanced way. And it will force progression raids to say that maybe a druid becomes the best progression tank from the stand point that nothing in the raid hits hard enough for him to die, but they will often find themselves on a knifes edge for healing mana at the end of fights as an exchange. On the other end a war might be taking spike damage in the fight that is barely survivable or only can be survived with cooldowns, yet the steady more efficient healing allows the fights to end without danger of running out of healing mana.

  9. #89
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    Te problem with doing a percentage is that it doesn't act as a suffcient gear check.Blizzard has stated that regen won't be so high come 3.1 which should lead to soak tanks being slightly less desireable. Bosses hitting faster only puts off the changes that need to be


    Block is too situational to be itemized around in its current state. Warriors and paladins are gimped in high damage fights because their mitigation is near useless.

    -Change block to flat rate and a percentage
    -Cap damage avoided (flat rate or a percentage)
    -change boss attacks to multiple hits with single hit roll (multiple blocks per hit)
    -some mechanism to scale block when fighting a boss ( or mobs a higher level than you) to a higher flat damage (such as based on a level multiplier)
    -progressively reduce itemization costs of block as higher damage bosses roll out
    -Remove 3+ multimob tanking from raiding and let block scale higher
    -trash hits for a percentage of health
    -give everyone block

    Some of these changes are a lot better than others. Just listed all the possible solutions I could think of at the moment.

    But it comes down to the fact that at its current state scaling block will trivialize multimob tanking making warriors/pallies in order to play any role in boss fights.

  10. #90
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    Wow I just reread my post, please excuse the terrible amount of typos in it.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ipick View Post
    Wow I just reread my post, please excuse the terrible amount of typos in it.
    Still some good thoughts in there, I particularly like the idea of making block value into a rating similar to armour (though that was around before we started calling things ratings) which through some equation (including some sort of DR and level dependant...) should give a % of mitigation on block, this can either be in the 10-40% range if calculated off the damage pre-armour mitigation or in the 2-10% range if calculated off the damage post armour mitigation (I'm really pulling those from nowhere, I'd hope devs would test some numbers before going live with anything).

    That way when we stack SBV to give us more threat from Shield Slam / Shield of Righteousness, we are not making ourselves "immune" to trash damage... nor are we failing to add any effective survivability (that would have been better stacked into HP or Avoidance) against bosses.

    If pallies and warriors really will be hitting that 105.whatever% block+avoidance number then bosses could even be tuned to take into account this extra mitigation, since at that point (and NOT really until) it'll be just as good for scaling that "max hit" a boss could do, as a druid's armour/hp.

    As for using the shield to soak up a Dragon's Breath, well shield wall does a pretty damn fine job of that, and uses the shield (though a new animation that shows the warrior really covering with the shield while it is up would be nice to see).

    To bad it's cooldown is too long to make it useable...

    But wait... what's this...

    Glyph of Shield Wall *new* -- Reduces the cooldown on Shield Wall by 3 min, but Shield Wall now only reduces damage taken by 40%

    + Improved Disciplines = Shield Wall every 60 seconds...

    Though that is kind of worrying, in that every warrior tank will HAVE to glyph and spec that way?

    Pallies still seem to be out in the cold, but maybe they will get a glyph of Divine Protection as well, unless that would be too homogenous?

  12. #92
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    I've heard some cool ideas suggested for block, mitigation, or talent design ideas but the bottom line is this:

    MEH and EH need to be homogenized across classes.

    Period. You can't design a tanking encounter that is enthralling and challenging if it doesn't push the threshold of dying. Right now, that threshold is just too different for each tank. You can keep the mitigation/avoidance mechanics distinct. Certain classes can excel at certain hit sizes, or damage types. Some classes can even scale differently. These things you don't need to homogenize.

    But in the end, you need your tank's buffer to be a relatively static number to tune encounters that are fun, interesting, and approachable by all classes. It's ok that the health bars of druids look like the health bars of warriors/paladins. (In fact, this will make assessing and validating tanks more universal -- bring the player, not the...) Homogenizing MEH/EH will not make the classes feel the same.

    Taking damage is only 50% of what tanks do anyways, threat/dps/debuffing still feels markedly different between the classes. These are the areas where the distinction of each class should come into play, it shouldn't come in their lack of competency to take hits.

  13. #93
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    I agree; EH/MEH is the one thing that is necessary for tanks to be capable of tanking encounters. Avoidance helps healers when you outgear content. Block helps on smaller-hitting content, which is content that, as someone said earlier, we never die on anyway.

    Magic damage reduction can't happen on blocks - that wouldn't contribute to EH at all (unless the tank was passively unhittable, which would seriously compromise their MEH anyway due to stamina sacrificed).

    The change to pally/tank MEH needs to be something which can be up constantly; a buff (blessing, aura, shout, warrior enrage?), or a stance or talent. I don't think any particular glyph should be mandatory. Pinning it onto blocks or avoidance, or cooldowns like Reflect or Shield Block, will not help the situation.
    Last edited by Timetheos; 02-24-2009 at 10:55 PM.
    Mourning Nightfall since 2.4.2.

  14. #94
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    EH and MEH do not need to be homogenous, but they do need to be within a reasonably small delta. It's okay if one class has a slightly better overall EH/MEH and another class has slightly worse overall but better for a specific sort of damage or better when damage can be predicted for cooldown use.

    But that swing can't be very large, or stuff gets nasty, as has been discussed.

    I still think that +/- 5% is a good rule of thumb. That would mean that a class with good general EH should have about 5% better than a class with good targeted EH or cooldown EH. Targeted EH could boost the EH of a tank by about 10% (i.e. "I'm good at taking magic damage" or "I'm good at taking melee damage.") from the poor EH point. Cooldown EH should probably *average* to a 10% swing (i.e. up for 1/4 of BURSTS means a 40% boost).

    Something along those lines, anyway. Then you can have the following scenarios:

    Mixed damage, unpredictable bursts: an average EH class has a 5% advantage over the worst.
    Physical damage, unpredictable bursts: a physical EH class has a 10% advantage over the worst, and a 5% advantage over the average.
    Magical damage, unpredictable bursts: a magical EH class has a 10% advantage over the worst, and a 5% advantage over the average.

    Mixed damage, predictable bursts: a general cooldown class would have a 40% advantage on one quarter of bursts over the worst.
    Magic damage, melee damage, etc.: Same dealio.


    I think one thing with the setup we have now is that cooldown uptime and mitigation amounts appear to be based on overall uptime, and not percentage of bursts they can catch. It's also a bit tricky because there should be some skill involved in choosing when to use cooldowns--which probably means a larger EH boost than would normally be indicated, under the assumption that CDs won't be used every time they're available and the burst occurs.


    In any case, if a given class has more than a 10% EH advantage overall on a given burst type, that class is likely to be considered mandatory for fights of that nature. 10% is already large enough that a major progression guild would always use a tank of that type, and less "leet" guilds would prefer a tank of that type if they have one. But it's not so large that a guild would say "We just can't do this because we don't have an X on our tanking team." More than 10%, and you're really starting to get into that area of people not even wanting to attempt the fight with the "wrong" kind of tank.


    Note: cooldowns can also be tailored to different bursts damage types, of course. So you could imagine a class that's generally strong against melee and weak against magic, but has mid-grade general damage cooldown abilities. In fact, that would probably make good sense: have classes vary in magic/melee/mixed EH between "-5%", "average", and "+5%", and magic/melee/mixed cooldowns between "none", "moderate", and "strong".

    For extra credit, make some of this selection based on talents that are difficult to take all at the same time as other desirable talents. So, for example, an anti-magic specced character might have weak physical cooldowns and strong magic cooldowns, but an anti-melee character might have moderate general cooldowns and better overall physical EH.

    Then you can tweak the actual choices of what each class should be strong and weak against so that nobody is a "do-everything" class.



    ANYway, I've gotten pretty far afield with speculation about how to design a game with a balanced but rich selection of tanking options. Still, I think that the very core of my thesis holds strongly: no tank should have more than a 10% EH advantage before cooldowns over any other tank for either magic or melee damage. Cooldowns and advantages against specific sorts of fights can add flavor after that, but the core EH can't vary more than that much without one class being "best".
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  15. #95
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    I think that regardless of what class you PREFER to play that you shouldn't be required to bring one tank over any other. My ten man has zero DK's we prolly won't ever have a DK so now does that mean that my raid should be punished because we aren't taking the 'new kids' as someone else stated? I think that's more ultimately what needs to be looked at why is there such a huge disparity between Warriors/Paladins vs Druids/DeathKnights? That just seems like poor design that's becoming more and more increasingly apparent due to the HUGE influx of a class that didn't exist last expansion... I think ultimately blizz will figure out a way to fix this, the bigger question then becomes, how long will we have to wait this out? I truly hope ulduar will give Warriors and Paladins more areas to shine and maybe make druids and DK's sweat. I think we are closer now then we were in BC yes, but there's still a ways to go. Stop punishing people for being the player and not the class is my sincerest opinion.

    Kel

  16. #96
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    Please calm down and take some deep breaths there, Kelstet. Also consider using paragraphs in your future posts.

    Remember that Blizzard isn't trying to punish anybody. And if there is a problem (and they do know more about what's coming in the future than any of us do, so it's always possible they *do* already have solutions for stuff), they'll want to fix it: it's in their best interest for the game to be as fun as possible for as many people as possible.

    I for one *don't* hope that Ulduar makes warriors and paladins "shine" and druids and DKs "sweat": I want everybody to be on reasonably even footing. Having classes shine at some fights and suck at others is poor game design. Having classes be *slightly better* at some fights and *slightly worse* at others is better.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  17. #97
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    It would probably be easier to hand out some nerfs to change MEH....

    I can see druids MEH/EH being brought more in line with warriors and pallies by fixing the pvp/polar gear to appropriate stamina levels and nerfing health in lieu of armor for savage defense.

    Dk's on the other hand
    5 or 7 sec 75%/100% spell damage reduction on a 45 sec CD
    10 sec 75% or (10k+AP*2) spell damage reduction on a 2min CD
    12 sec roughly 40% spell damage reduction on a 1 min CD
    4 charge 20% Reduction 1 min CD
    Just in unholy without the gimmick spec.

    Spell damage reduction is higher (15% Frost prescence+ 5% magic supression vs 16% Improved defensive). Dk's have even higher health.

    All that aside Dk's would still be niche predictable spell damage burst (call it PSDB) tanks if they didn't have anti magic shell. In their current state I don't see how you can reasonably balance a boss that does PSDB around unholy death knights and warriors/pallies.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorps View Post
    If Spell Reflect gave a decent amount of mitigation for any spell it doesn't reflect, that would go a long way to help.
    This.

  19. #99
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    A change to Spell Reflect would still only affect activated MEH, and would be useless on progressive, unpredictable encounters.
    Mourning Nightfall since 2.4.2.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myzery View Post
    I've heard some cool ideas suggested for block, mitigation, or talent design ideas but the bottom line is this:

    MEH and EH need to be homogenized across classes.

    Period. You can't design a tanking encounter that is enthralling and challenging if it doesn't push the threshold of dying. Right now, that threshold is just too different for each tank. You can keep the mitigation/avoidance mechanics distinct. Certain classes can excel at certain hit sizes, or damage types. Some classes can even scale differently. These things you don't need to homogenize.
    I tend to agree here.

    What makes the most sense to me is to leave Warriors and Paladins with a HP deficit, but give them the edge in armor. This makes perfect sense when you think about it because Bears are covered in fur, not steel, and DK's don't have shields.

    I'd give druid tanks the most HP, but the least armor. DK's would have the second highest HP, more armor than druids, but less than warriors and paladins because of shields. Balance it so that a given physical hit will take approximately the same percentage of health from each of the classes.

    Ballpark suggestion:
    Druid tank: 60,000HP, 18,000AC
    Death Knight: 50,000HP, 25,000AC
    Warrior/Pally: 40,000HP, 32,000AC

    My numbers aren't necessarily accurate, but just an illustration to show my thought process. This would solve the EH side of the equation. For MEH, I suggest that shields provide some sort of magic mitigation. There have been plenty of excellent ideas already. I very much like the idea of blocking incorporating some sort of magic mitigation.

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