The easy way to fix this is to require MULTIPLE tanks per encounter, ALA sarth, warriors are awesome for tanking the aoe whelps and with imp shield reflect would be awesome at tanking aoe magic dmg.
So BLIZZARD, listen up and make fights requires say 5-6 tanks of different styles, and it COULD be done with all bears but would be EASIER with a mix of wars/pallies and druids/dks
Our strength is blocking many quick atks. One bossfight I envision is a boss who splits into 20-30 adds that the OTs have to control and then combines back into a hard hitting boss.
So in short it is the BOSSES that are the problem, not the classes.
i like the idea of having spell reflect do something... first thing would be to make it work on all spells. Then, keep the regular reflect for targeted spells, and make it mitigate a certain amount (maybe based in SBV? like SBVx2 or something) on AoE spells. After all, the idea of a warrior hiding behind a shield to cover himself from a Dragon's Breath is not new to fantasy.... (i knoe i've seen it in plenty of other places before).
For Paladins i have no idea. i feel like they are the class that has the most problems with magic damage. My fresh Naxx25 raid is learning 4 Horsemen, and currently we have myself and a pally doing the back side of the room. Just because i have Spell Reflect my healer is a lot more relaxed than the pally's... Avoiding one spell ever 10 sec might not sond like much, but it adds up i guess.
I think we all agree on the "magical EH" issue. GC asked us to address what if the breath was physical. I'm going to try and do some math on this tonight, but I just wanted to try and see if anyone else was interested in trying to tackle the question at hand.
Initially I took this stance, but really unless you want every boss to summon adds/split into 47 little adds/have a bunch of adds/did I mention adds/also there will be some adds/etc there's really no way to create 'roles' for paladins and warriors right now.So in short it is the BOSSES that are the problem, not the classes.
They've painted themselves into a corner if they go that route. They need to design class abilities so that their options for designing encounters are as open as possible. You can see this in a number of the other changes they've made. The COH/WG nerfs were specifically designed so that they can challenge healers without saying "ok, this will be a hard healing encounter...did you want the raid to take lots of fire damage or lots of frost damage?" The regen nerfs serve a similar purpose.
Encounter design revolves around tank abilities the same way. Want interesting boss encounters that are different and complex? Then it's probably not a good idea to have half of your classes stuck in a 'niche' where low-damage fast hits are their best-case scenario.
I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal, I stand by the player is far more important then the class. Me and the DK tank in our guild are so close that I wouldn't ever care if she was a druid, paladin, or even another warrior. Nor would any of the members of our raid group. If we come across a boss that a another tanking class might have an easyer time with all it means is that we will make it work with what we have because playing with people you like and having fun is far more important to us then druids having a tad more health or that paladins can use holy shield...or..whatever they do...I don't even know thats how little it matters to me.
I am not trying to put anyone down or anything I just don't understand why people have to worry about such things, to the point of forum flame wars and not just enjoying the challange and the game.
Also I didn't mean that anyone on this forum is flaming anyone,we are all mature enough to avoid for that sort of thing here ^^ I ment on the blizz forums.
Thinking from the realism point of view, I got to thinking about block. The biggest problem everyone sees is that if you scale block to work on bosses you trivialize smaller content.
Then I got to thinking about a real person blocking with a shield. Lets say for example that a knight was blocking attacks from a small boy. He would be able to block every single attack without much difficulty. Then the knight goes up against a dragon.
When the dragon hits him he gets hit so hard that his shield isn't ready to block immediately. He successfully blocked the major attack but isn't in the best of positions because he got hit so hard.
Could blizz work out a way that we (paladins and warriors), "epic block" something which would render the ability to block for a second or two nill?
Or how about "Heavy Shields" vs Bucklers. If I was going up against a dragon, I'd want the biggest heaviest shield possible to hide behind for the breath. It would be unwieldy and thus I wouldn't block as much, but I would block for more.
When tanking trash or 5 mans, I would want a buckler that I could be a lot nimbler with, block more attacks, and counter attack much easier. This would stop far less dmg, but would block more often.
In order for the "Heavy Shield" thing to work, there would need to be "shield block-wall" type abilities that only worked when a heavy shield was in use. Think trinket type on-use. Thus when the shield is equipped it would take 30 seconds before that ability would be ready to be used. Thus fixing the shield swap issue.
Just an idea.
Here are my thoughts after reading what has been posted so far.
First of all, I don't think simply buffing block is the answer to put Pallies and Warriors on more equal footing as DK's and druids. I'm a paladin tank, and as it stands, without gearing for it I tend to block for anywhere between 1k-1.6k. This already reduces the majority of damage in heroics and in fights like Sarth with drakes up, and to buff it, especially at these gear levels, would lead to blocks for full damage on trash.
A possible change to block would to be add a deflect magic feature that would maybe translate as block chance=chance to reduce magic damage by x%, similar to the DK parry/magic reduc mechanic. Like someone said earlier, blocking fire breath with a shield seems somewhat realistic, parrying/dodging, not so much.
Second, I don't think GC is asking us how to make Pallies and Warriors the best tank for encounters such as Sarth 3D, but is simply suggesting that by making it physical damage make it possible for us to MT the encounter. Personally, I don't have to be the best choice for every encounter, as long as I'm an option to tank it successfully. In extremely challenging encounters such as Sarth 3D, a raid is going to find out who/what class is THE best to tank that fight, and at least for progression, that tank will likely be chosen. What matters is in the future a different class is capable of filling the MT spot.
Why if my guild has only a prot pally and 3 prot warriors should we have to recruit a druid and/or a DK JUST to make one fight easier? Using either one of those 2 classes narrows the responsibilities to fewer players, prevent any one of the 4 classes with cooldowns from missing the "breathe incoming, pally sac, priest shield etc etc". The more people who MUST perform perfectly creates more situations for things to go wrong. If all tanks had to be handled the same way, it wouldnt be an issue, but that isnt the case. Sure it is only ONE fight, but that doesnt change the fact their entire goal falls to pieces at this point. It also just happens to be the ONE fight in the game used as a standard for success at the moment.
Spell reflect working on all spells and removing a fraction of magic damage is a great idea. Improved Spell Reflect could improve upon that, either giving more dmg reduction, a lower cooldown, or making the effect last longer than 1 spell/charge.
Hmm...would nerfing that ability help even up some of the MEH issues? They'd still have anti-magic shell, so DKs would still have the best magic-mitigation in the game.
Right now my warrior and paladin tank team are all rolling bears and one DK. We don't have the energy to fight Blizz's moving target anymore so we'll just keep our toons geared as possible and switch back to paladin or warrior for the next content patch when things shift around again.
When did survivability become a flavor?
There are two facets here, just like PVP vs. PVE, we are looking at balancing between Hard core progression vs. Casual raiding.
A progression raid is on the cutting edge, rolling into content at min. or slightly undergeared, min/maxed. This guild will HAVE to choose the class that has even the smallest marginal advantage, I don't care how closely you tune, if class X has 1% better survival, class X is going to tank it. If player Y on class X can't cut it, they will level up player Z on class X and use them(probably overnight running them through naxx 10,25,OS10,25 and Mally10,25 giving them all the gear appropriate gear drops and enchants).
On the other end, small guild of dedicated 10 man raids, will use what ever tank class they have been using, because they are used to it. They will support that tank with outside cooldowns, adjust strats to minimize the weaknesses of that class, and will eventually clear the content (weeks or months after the progression teams, but with the same sense of accomplishments).
For the majority in the middle, raid leaders will try to stack the classes to the best advantage. Any player that has to sit out, regardless of class (we have a mage already, you can't go) is going to be upset, so its not just a tank issue for these guilds.
At the end of the day it isn't about who can take a bigger magic hit, or who can take a bigger hit in general, it is about who can "reliably" mitigate the most from any sort of hit, and who has the most HP.
Sure if a warrior has 30k hp and can critically block with shield block up for 10k, and the boss hits for 31k after armour is taken into account, he CAN reduce that hit to 21k and survive, with LUCK and a COOLDOWN, but the druid with 40k lives every single time.
The only difference is if you make the hit magic, the warrior can NEVER survive it, down from "infrequently survive it".
The result is the same, since the warrior can't reliably live through the hit, the druid gets to tank, and the warrior gets to sit.
Again, this doesn't work as the "druid" gimmick, because the same qualities of higher armour & more hp make it easier to keep the druid up even on a fight that wouldn't kill the hypothetical warrior, with block only pulling ahead in the survivability game when we are talking about getting hit insanely fast for low damage (like trash) which isn't really a threat to a bear anyway (esp after they get their strange crit/ap based block mechanic).
As for the people who keep repeating the "bring the player, not the class" BS, clearly if it were true, you would see 25 man DK groups succeeding; there is a "almost" requirement to have 2 priests for Raz in Naxx (we were pretty successful using a 2 warrior 1 druid taunt rotation the other day, but we are kind of a "special" (as in retarded) case, and I don't suggest people try to make that a regular strategy).
I know what you mean is more of a "bring the role (tank/melee dps/ranged dps/healer) not the class" kind of thing, but still...
I wouldn't mind at all if there were other fights that more or less required each of the classes... (and seriously if you don't have at least one of each class, ready to go with gear for each potentially viable raid spec, I question your claims to being a "serious" raiding guild, being prepared for blizard changing the rules and forcing you to have X random thing is part of the game.)
If I'm never going to get to use shield reflect in a meaningful way again, why is it on my bar. Yeah it would be cool if you could maybe put a dk or druid in there and have them survive the hit and make up for it with more heals, but any guild that has a brain will have a warrior in there reflecting.
The same goes for things like mass dispel, enslave demon, spell steal, etc...
Those were things that used to make fights interesting, if blizz is steadfast in not doing it like that ever again, and they refuse to homoginize the classes so and give those same abilities to everyone in the "role"; we will lose most of a so far fairly limited number of way of making fights unique.
Though from the sounds of it, riding in cars is the new way, but that though temporary is the essence of homoginization, that car is the same no matter who is in it, no matter what gear they have, if you want to do a fight that uses spell reflect, you just put the tank in a car that has spell reflect and pat yourself on the back for not giving druids a spell reflect and homoginizing the classes too much.
Personally I'd love to see balance druids get a brainslug form so they can attach to a humanoid's (and/or beast's?) brainstem so we don't have to find priests to do naxx 25.