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Thread: Tanking Topics #3: Health

  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Wait, let me try that again since I had crushes on the brain:

    The real trick is if +4 levels really means +4 levels now. If that's the case, then crushing blows aren't a concern at all. All you're losing is some avoidance... and uncrittability for 3 of 4 classes O.o
    Wouldn't everyone become crittable in this situation? Druids are crit immune due to their talents but it's still only 6%, and I'm pretty sure having 200 def (assuming they don't have any +def on gear) would make them lose enough def to bring the crit chance of a boss well above 6%.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    Wouldn't everyone become crittable in this situation? Druids are crit immune due to their talents but it's still only 6%, and I'm pretty sure having 200 def (assuming they don't have any +def on gear) would make them lose enough def to bring the crit chance of a boss well above 6%.
    Block pushes crit off the table, so theoretically just DK's and Druids, but the gear you'd need to achieve that might be inappropriate for the regular damage intake... and it might be a simple taunting situation.

    Regarding crit. If you're dropping def by that much, yes crit would become an issue, however, crushing blow pushes crit off the table too, and depending on the unbalancing strike mechanic, that would be the predominant "hit" while unbalancing strike is in effect.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liar View Post
    Thanks a bunch. So it's basically 5-6k health vs uncrushability. Really depends on how Unbalancings works now, it might be worth it by smoothing out the incoming damage and removing the worst case of swing/UB/crush. But yeah, depends on Thorim's other abilities obviously.
    It's even a bit worse than that. In that gear, he isn't "uncrushable"/block capped against unbalancing strike. He would be a good 10% shy.

  4. #384
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    Yup. Crits will never be a problem since crushing chance grows much faster.
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  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priestvalon View Post
    Block pushes crit off the table, so theoretically just DK's and Druids, but the gear you'd need to achieve that might be inappropriate for the regular damage intake... and it might be a simple taunting situation.

    Regarding crit. If you're dropping def by that much, yes crit would become an issue, however, crushing blow pushes crit off the table too, and depending on the unbalancing strike mechanic, that would be the predominant "hit" while unbalancing strike is in effect.
    I'm not even sure a warrior can achieve passive block... Regardless, I was wondering what class Satrina was talking about when he said 3 of 4 would become crittable because unless I am mistaken about how def works even druids would be lowered past the crit cap.

    I would assume that a fight with that debuff would be a taunt fight, but perhaps it's not.

  6. #386
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    Druids would at the very least be less affected by it.
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  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    It's even a bit worse than that. In that gear, he isn't "uncrushable"/block capped against unbalancing strike. He would be a good 10% shy.
    837 def rating is 9.32 miss

    9.32 + 23.73 + 18.51 + 42.05 + 32.56 (Holy Shield and old Trink) + 3 (hunter/druid miss debuff) + 6.2 (Horn of Winter agility : dodge) + 0.68 (Kings agility : dodge) + 1.44 (Elixir of Defense 45 def)

    =137.49 avoidance/block before DR, 130.78 after DR (per defdodge.xls)

    I haven't gotten around to doing the math regarding how far below 8% of a drop -200 def skill is, but its less than 2% total off uncrushable, not 10% off.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    The real trick is if +4 levels really means +4 levels now. If that's the case, then crushing blows aren't a concern at all. All you're losing is some avoidance... and uncrushability for 3 of 4 classes O.o
    A defense debuff means that you can get crushed. You can try it out yourself on Amanitar in heroic Old Kingdom (he does a -500 defense debuff). I actually managed to get killed by an 8.4k crushing blow from him a couple of nights ago.

  9. #389
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    When comparing these numbers in the original post, something is missing:

    For a paladin it seems to be fine, to just stack stamina. As a warrior, you can't do that. The main reason is threat.

    Remember Brutallus? When we were doing him, I evaluated about 50 logs of other raids, where warriors were tanking Brutallus. He hits like a truck, but 80-90% of the warriors were tanking him in a threat gear.

    Yes, threat has become much easier, but if you are just stacking stamina, having no expertise/hit, you are in trouble.

  10. #390
    There definitely is a difference in terms of gearing between Paladins and Warriors if you want good threat as a Warrior but I don't think people tanked Brutallus in threat gear while learning him either. Atleast I know I didn't.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeymlicH View Post
    When comparing these numbers in the original post, something is missing:

    For a paladin it seems to be fine, to just stack stamina. As a warrior, you can't do that. The main reason is threat.

    Remember Brutallus? When we were doing him, I evaluated about 50 logs of other raids, where warriors were tanking Brutallus. He hits like a truck, but 80-90% of the warriors were tanking him in a threat gear.

    Yes, threat has become much easier, but if you are just stacking stamina, having no expertise/hit, you are in trouble.
    Nah, they didnt , trust me, the only time tanks staretd wearing threat gear on bruttalis was mayeb when he nerfed to pieces, or they used the sunwell style threta gear which was actually also stam/avoidance gear too, so in other words they had already cleared most of sunwell, and brut ws on farm for them.

  12. #392
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    some math i posted on the wow forums last night

    do not interpret this the wrong way, it simply shows that druids stacking avoidance are now identical to warriors but once the druid is in full ulduar gear we will scale past them again before icecrown, but that a stam bear still has a huge EH lead and gets absolutely destroyed on avoidance

    just a note a comment made by GC

    [blizzard]4) Avoidance may be too high given what tier we're in.
    [/blizzard]
    this is evidenced by how hard some people are already hitting the DR, especially when you hit trinkets or get procs




    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------





    so i just did some more math, i have been working on this for the past 3-4 hours checking and rechecking the math to make sure it is accurate

    This is showing the nerf to druids who decide not to stack stam, my avoidance set consists of agi hit gems in yellow slots, and 7 agi 11 stam gems in all red and blue slots. this particular set only has 2 prismatic gems (one in a yellow in my legs one in a red in my helm) because one is in my monarch crab, in my avoidance set i use the badge trinket and greatness deck

    the results even surprised me so here goes my conclusions

    This is for after the patch accounting for all 25 man raid buffs (kings mark and fort but not commanding shot because it is constant for both classes)

    comparing my druid

    33387 hp with 41.68% dodge on live, 31964 on ptr with the same avoidance

    to my warrior

    The World of Warcraft Armory


    Armor: (PTR numbers)

    -3817 more armor for the druid in stam gear and 4163 more armor for the druid in avoidance gear

    -armor buffs give constant armor for both classes except for the agi increase from kings and self buff with imp MOTW, this results in further 300 armor gain for the druid (already taking out what a warrior gains)


    Avoidance:

    Unbuffed:

    -Druid has 42.7% avoidance from gear + 5% base

    -Warrior has 49.19% avoidance from gear + 5% base

    -total avoidance deficit = 6.49

    Applying raid buffs:

    -my warrior with kings how and mark will have 54.29% avoidance from gear + 5 miss for 59.29% total avoidance

    -my druid will have 50.54% avoidance (read gaining 8.02% dodge from kings and HoW) from gear + 5 miss for 55.54 total avoidance

    -total avoidance defiecit raid buffed = 3.75%

    -total avoidance difference from raid buffs: druid gains 2. 74 more avoidance than the warrior from raid buffs


    Stam:

    Unbuffed:

    -My druid unbuffed on live has 1441 more hp than my warrior but on PTR it has 300 less. This accounts for both the nerf to HOTW and the buff to imp MOTW, a loss of 172 stam (2615 down to 2443)

    Raid buffs:

    -both warriors and druids gain the same 1.1x1.06 (kings and vitality/SOTF) caster form multipliers, using imp mark and imp fort this gives both classes 311 stam (in caster for druids)

    -311*1.1*1.25=x-311=117x10=1166-300= 866

    -total HP difference= 866 hp advantadge for the druid in an avoidance set



    Conclusions: or TLDR for others

    -Armor advantage: druids still maintain a 3800-4700 armor lead over warriors.

    -Avoidance: Druids still have an avoidance deficit of 3-5% range when stacking avoidance, in the 8-10% range in a balanced progression set (read mixing in stam with expertise and hit) after raid buffs applied, this does not account for idol of terror or (if the druid has it) mongoose/greatness procs and trinket uses.

    -Stam: Druid HP in a full avoidance set unbuffed is 300-700hp less than the warrior. Druids gain 1166 hp more than warriors from raid buffs,





    Blizzard: you did not fix the problem, simply shift the line at which the scaling starts to become overpowered, i can drop 5% avoidance and gain 5369 hp in bear with kings, leaving me at fully raid buffed a 9% avoidance disadvantage but 6234 more hp than the warrior, a 16% health advantage which is right back where we started



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