Tanking Topics #3: Health

[Guthammer]

I don't know how many people remember Gruul as progression. Since DPS was low back then raid leads needed to figure on 15-18 grows before he was just one shotting tanks.

Bears often got the of tanking him because--while everyone agreed they took more damage--healing was never so tight that the extra damage the took offset their deeper HP pools didn't make them superior tanks. Heck it was a sign that Gruul was on farm when other classes could tank him.

Additionally there is the unspoken problem that Blizzard has said is too confining to fix: there is a 40% tank unenployment rate between 10 and 25s. So small differences become more important--and the current EH/MEH variations are big differences.

We aren't talking just about Uldar, but 3.2 and 3.3 and probably the first raids of 4.0.

Whoever set up the compairson of a 44k HP warrior, vs a 45k HP bear--you are talking about a T8ish geared warrior vs a sub T7 geared bear. If you hold the gear equal you're talking about a 44k HP warrior vs a 56k HP bear.

As a prot warrior raid lead I have to tell you that even though I run the 10 mans to tank--I would give away my spot to the bear with 56k HP.

And how do you choose who's tanking Patchwerks Hatefuls? I know I use biggest HP pool. And Menexna gets the same sort of tank.

[Liar]

I just want to make sure we're all reading the same things here.

Irony much? <_<

So you don't want every tank to be the same, but you want them all to have the same health? And you think some tanks need more health, but when they throw a +stamina enchant on the PTRs, you're all against it because every warrior will use it? And then you talk about stacking stamina in progression fights, and how it's the right thing to do?

Here is the thing; I think most people think we want everyone to have exactly the same Health. That is not true. Health is only ONE slider to adjust EH and MEH, Armor and Stance reduction are the other two (and cooldowns you can use often like AMS and Barkskin).
Flavor should exist and if a Druid has, say, 5% less avoidance then he should have a bit more armor to compensate. The point being, a Druid would still slightly make a better tank for hard hitting mobs in the worst case scenario but not by the amount it is now. In return, Warriors would be slightly better on bosses where 5% are better than more armor (I can't think of one atm, so help me out here :P) but that's fine. That's flavor.

A Druid would have 22% more health if nothing changed in T10 (let alone EH and MEH because they have more armor reduction and a better stance modifier than Warriors) than a Warrior which is completely ridiculous. This is not flavor, this is imbalance.

This post was just above yours for crying out loud. :/
(and I have absolutely no idea how you managed to involve Titanguard into this)

[Darksend]

Does it matter? Do they have to design for anyone specific? Can't you live with an encounter that's just going to be difficult, to be handled differently by every one, so each tank/group has to come up with it's own solution?

THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS DISCUSSION.

If you design for a warrior, druids live it so easily it is not even a challenge. If you design around a druid, warriors will never be able to tank it ever.

[WBill]

No offence but you version of CharDev Warrior
is flawed. to get those specs i would have to be a Blacksmith to get extra sockets* in certain gear, a Jewelcrafter to get the +41 to stamina, and an Leather working to get the +90 stamina enchats....

*my emphasis

They're actually not using the BS only sockets so no harm no foul.

[Mhoram]

Irony much? <_<





This post was just above yours for crying out loud. :/
(and I have absolutely no idea how you managed to involve Titanguard into this)

Must be, cause you managed to miss the last part of my post, which called you into question for saying that in the first line of yours, and then saying druids would have 22% more in the last part of yours. For crying out loud.

Reading comprehension much? <_< I'll even quote it, so you can see it close together:

Here is the thing; I think most people think we want everyone to have exactly the same Health.

A Druid would have 22% more health if nothing changed in T10 (let alone EH and MEH because they have more armor reduction and a better stance modifier than Warriors) than a Warrior which is completely ridiculous. This is not flavor, this is imbalance.

And you specifically state "more health (let alone EH and MEH). So what do you want? Druids have that much more health because they can't do the things warriors and druids do. I've read that here, I've read that on the WoW forums, and nobody's ever said "that's just gonzo talk. Stop that this instant." Now it's not true? No wonder we're in the state we're in.

I just don't get it. Different classes were designed differently, and they were designed to do what they do differently. This is how it's been for four years, and now what? Again, I don't see what you want to happen - either everybody's the same, or different. You can't have it both ways. If you're going to go after base class design and function to this level, then you're gonna have to do it for everything. Why can't warriors turn into birds and fly? Why can't priests call up a couple wolves? Why can't paladins shoot fire from their hands? Why does that warlock have a bunch of little pets to follow him around, while I'm stuck being a rogue, opening boxes.

I just don't see what you all want here. You can't have it both ways. You just can't.

Get the point much? <_<

(BTW - Norrath, that's why I'm saying what I'm saying. Liar specifically separated health, EH, and MEH. So if you're having this much trouble specifying which health you mean, don't be surprised when people don't get you.)

[Mhoram]

THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS DISCUSSION.

If you design for a warrior, druids live it so easily it is not even a challenge. If you design around a druid, warriors will never be able to tank it ever.

I thought they were trying to avoid that. (And that, is why I brought Titanguard up - they said we couldn't have it, because then they'd have to design for tanks having that much more health. Now they seem to be doing just that, if I'm reading this right.)

[Darksend]

I thought they were trying to avoid that. (And that, is why I brought Titanguard up - they said we couldn't have it, because then they'd have to design for tanks having that much more health. Now they seem to be doing just that, if I'm reading this right.)

Avoid what exactly ?

[WBill]

OK - maybe this is a bit remedial but ...

Isn't druid EH meant to make up for the deficit that arises from Leather Armor and the resulting lack of Damage Reduction?

I was under the assumption that the higher health pool offset the fact that they were taking more damage as a result of lower armor values.

[Liar]

Must be, cause you managed to miss the last part of my post, which called you into question for saying that in the first line of yours, and then saying druids would have 22% more in the last part of yours. For crying out loud.

Reading comprehension much? <_< I'll even quote it, so you can see it close together:

Wow. Feel free to read the sentence after that. I specifically said we do not want health to be exactly the same which is why I replied to your post that asked if we wanted all health to be same. So yeah, you managed to read my post but apparently not closely enough. Here it is again:

Here is the thing; I think most people think we want everyone to have exactly the same Health. That is not true. Health is only ONE slider to adjust EH and MEH, Armor and Stance reduction are the other two (and cooldowns you can use often like AMS and Barkskin).

So you don't want every tank to be the same, but you want them all to have the same health?

I underlined the relevant part. We do not want health to be same, we want MEH and EH to be same. Is that where the confusion lies? Health != MEH. Health != EH.

[Darksend]

OK - maybe this is a bit remedial but ...

Isn't druid EH meant to make up for the deficit that arises from Leather Armor and the resulting lack of Damage Reduction?

I was under the assumption that the higher health pool offset the fact that they were taking more damage as a result of lower armor values.

No, druids have the highest armor of any of the 4 tanks, they already nerfed it once and and nerfing it again in 3.1 and giving druids a weak form of block, but one that supposedly works on magic damage.

Druid hp is a product of a 1.749 stam modifier with kings. This is due to the lack of parry and block.

Savage defense is a tool blizzard could have used to address druid health, instead they addressed druid armor, which i feel is a mistake. Blizzard needs to adjust savage defense to lower the stam modifier not out armor modifier.

[Liar]

OK - maybe this is a bit remedial but ...

Isn't druid EH meant to make up for the deficit that arises from Leather Armor and the resulting lack of Damage Reduction?

I was under the assumption that the higher health pool offset the fact that they were taking more damage as a result of lower armor values.

Druids actually take less damage from hits than Warriors because they have more armor and a flat -12% damage reduction (Warriors have 10%). Block is generally not included in EH but even if it were, it only takes a medium to hard hitting boss to give Druids the mitigation advantage even if you'd assume the hypothetical Warrior would block 100% of the hits.

You are on the right track. IF Druids took more damage from melee damage, then they should have more health to compensate - but currently they have the armor and health advantage.

So in short, you can either have high armor/mitigation OR high health. But not both because that is making things imbalanced.

[Forklift]

Good topic. I didn't much care for the other two General Tanking Topics threads, but this is actually quite relevant, I think. However, I will agree with Talldar that it's really only a problem because of how blizzard designs encounters, rather than because the HP are not within a few % of each other.

Right now, in current t7 content, we have three different types of bosses:

1. EH--really just Stam, since you cannot really gear for armor anymore (Maexxna, Widow, Patches, Sarth, Sapph, etc.)
2. Gimmick--basically, gear-independent (Heigan, Thaddius, Grobb, KT, etc.)
3. Block (Loatheb, Gluth, that's about it)

The vast majority of bosses fall into category 1. Those that fall into category 2 are met with threat gear, and off the top of my head, only Loatheb and Gluth fall into 3. Those single bursts of damage from all the category 1 bosses are the only roadblocks for a tank deciding how to gear up.

We need to vary encounter design. If you only make us care about stacking Stam because those are the only fights where the tank's gear choices actually matter, then obviously the druid and DK are going to be OP. If you force tanks to be good at mitigating/surviving multiple types of damage income, then all of a sudden, higher HP is just one aspect.

Barring revolutionizing encounter design, yeah, buffing spell reflect to work on more boss abilities or changing the block mechanic to work against magic damage would be the best solution.

[Lacunata]

Just in new Patch note:

Sartharion Breath will percentage based on your max Health. Think Frostblast Iceblock from Kel`thuzad.

[Extermi]

WHile this is an interesting discussion, I would like to point out a few things:

1) Ranged weapon slot. The tanking guns you can equip there compensate (or, at least they did in the past) any advantage a Paladin would get from better scaling. DKs and Druids are also bound to their relicts that have much much worser stats

2) Blocking is a beast to balance. With Paladins being hit immune in T7, and Warrios closing in, Block is God mode against weak hitting opponents, while ineffective against hard hitters and magic attacks. This has to be looked at in its entirity, I well recall a feral AOE-taunting 30 little adds I was happily keeping at bay, just for fun, and dying within 1 second to what I was holding for minutes. I would suggest either all tanks need a mix of block (fixed reduction) and armor (percentage reduction) to function on trash and bosses

3) Magic mitigation is the DKs playground and niche. As long as it stays a niche I dont see a problem, I would expect ~80% of boss damage to the tank being physical and Sartharion just being a gimmick fight.

Extermi

[Taelas]

(BTW - Norrath, that's why I'm saying what I'm saying. Liar specifically separated health, EH, and MEH. So if you're having this much trouble specifying which health you mean, don't be surprised when people don't get you.)

My own post specified Effective Health.

[brain9h]

This topic is great. Congratulations Xav and others to bringing this out.

People who do not understand EH theory and its relation to true progression tanking and how that can affect boss tuning are just not qualified enough to comment on this. This thread is not a lobby in favor of warriors or paladins, this discussion is to make a better game, because with such health disparity, in no way can Blizzard balance adequately the future encounters for tanks and healers.

This has been said already but needs repeating because some people still don't get it: currently, if they tune battles for warriors then with druids it will be TRIVIAL, if they tune it for DK/Druids they are ruining the game, forcing guilds to call it a night when the Druid or DK tank is absent, or forcing the warrior/paladins who currently are guild main tanks to roll DK alts "just in case".

The solution is quite simple, boost warrior/paladin HP with talents. DK / Druids retain their status quo and everybody is happy. This is not a nerf thread in anyway, I don't know why some people are just so sensitive about it.

[Roana]

Sartharion Breath will percentage based on your max Health. Think Frostblast Iceblock from Kel`thuzad.

Attacks that do damage based on a fraction of max health (and they're nothing new) are actually a fairly effective way to offset the benefits of higher health (and if you only get to significantly higher health through sacrificing avoidance, can actually make you a poorer tank overall -- note that one of the goals for the next patch is to constrain healing through mana, not by GCDs).

Personally, I would have opted for diminishing returns on health (along with normalizing EH for tanks) to get a similar effect instead, but that would probably have led to an uproar because it would have been perceived as a game-wide nerf. Since there are already a number of percentage-based damage effects in the game, it's probably the smarter choice in terms of game politics -- players complaining about a boss being too hard are much less likely to find sympathy than ones complaining about their class being hit with the nerfbat and their gear being devalued as a result (even if the latter choice might be the better one for the game as a whole).

[nips]

The solution is quite simple, boost warrior/paladin HP with talents. DK / Druids retain their status quo and everybody is happy. This is not a nerf thread in anyway, I don't know why some people are just so sensitive about it.

If you do this 2 out of 3 dk specs will have alot less hp then all the other tanks. Nerfing blood hp is one thing, but boosting warriors/paladins hp is not ok.

As a sidenot i used the calculations on the first page with a frost dk build and the dk ended up between a paladin and a warior tank regards to hp.

I will admitt i'm far from an expert at tanking and i have learned alot from better players on this site, but meh if i got an oppinion i think i'm entiteled to say it. It's a game after all.

[Hamburglar]

The big issue I see is this: High health is nearly the solution to any survival situation in WoW. Druids have by far the highest HP pool and historically have used this combined with high physical mitigation to be the preferred tanks for the real hard hitters(ie: Morogrim, Gruul hatefuls, Azgalor, etc, etc). As far as magic damage bosses go however, it didn't make sense to have a druid over say, a warrior or pally.

Aside from DKs and their spell damage reduction cooldowns/mechanics, Blizzard has really not addressed tank mitigation versus bosses that rely heavily on magic damage. The only way to really address a boss like that was to out-stamina the magic damage. Now because druids have such a laughably larger HP pool than the others, they can almost be considered the ideal MT for any situation. This is due to extremely poor class design making them uncrittable by simply putting a couple points into their talent tree.

That said about Druids, DKs are facing the same thing but from a different perspective. Now, DKs are the preferred tanks for bosses that rely heavily on magic damage because of the large amount of cooldowns and percent-based damage reduction talents they have. Unfortunately, they are also able to get quite a large HP pool through a variety of percent-based stamina increasing talents and such. So in turn this large amount of HP and percent-based damage reduction make them like a magic-damage version of a feral druid tank. They own the magic damage like ferals own physical damage, but the large HP pool makes them own physical damage as well.

[hvidgaard]

Just in new Patch note:

Sartharion Breath will percentage based on your max Health. Think Frostblast Iceblock from Kel`thuzad.

While this will help to reduce the problem with the high health disparity of druids, it does not help against all the DKs cooldown - a side effect of this will also be that a druid will need more healing in such encounters and actually make them worse than the other 3 tanking classes from a purely mana point of view.

The only thing that will truely balance this out is to have the classes within 5% (M)EH of eachother.