Progression Tanking Balance

[Murdog]

And myself and a paladin will prolly tank 90% of Ulduar as a MT/OT .... ummm wheres the druid DK doesnt matter .... if your tanks are good the mantra stays strong.

[slashtankadin]

Our 25-man Raids have 3 Tanks MT=War, OT=Pally(Myself), OT=Drood, We run that setup with no problems we all know our place and when it is needed i think in some ways it is good that blizzard have done this. Like Cider said were not bringing the class anymore we are bringing the player, I would rarther have these 2 tanks with me than any1 ealse has we all work well together, I have no problem with tanking the adds in OS3D our war is on the drakes and our drood is on sarth. And we run that setup well we have so far downed OS2D and we are working on OS3D , it would be nice to think that myself or the war could step up and do it, but seen has we cant we dont have any problems with that, it just means we all have to think a little bit more about raid comp rarther than tank&spank

[Manßearpig]

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This alarms me. On the fights where tank classes are judged, the hardest fights, is where the tank disparity is going to be the greatest. The "bring the player, not the class" mantra breaks down at the pointy edge of the spear.

This is a product of how encounters work. On trivial fights, disparity among tanks is negligible. The harder a boss hits and the more burst potential in a fight is guaranteed to magnify something that is almost inconsequential in another fight.

[Odwome]

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This alarms me. On the fights where tank classes are judged, the hardest fights, is where the tank disparity is going to be the greatest. The "bring the player, not the class" mantra breaks down at the pointy edge of the spear.

Me too. It's a bit worrying that they are still going to try to make super-hard-mode bosses that decidedly favor one tank class over another. I mean, for DKs, the boss can do insane amounts of magic damage. That makes sense for that class. The Druid-focused boss is obviously going to be one that hits for insanely high amounts of melee, physical damage. The Paladin boss could be something like Loatheb, where having high block will seriously reduce the damage taken.

However, what niche is filled by Warriors? All three of the other classes have a fairly clear design intent, but with Warriors as the "Jack of all trades," how can you make a boss focused around their abilities, without making it easier to be the tank that can handle physical damage more easily (Druids), or the other tank that can get block-capped (Paladins).

[Regill]

My concerns are more in theory, looking forward. Sure I can tank anything now, even sarth 3d. That's not the issue. The issue is that a feral or dk is a better progression tank.

The bottomline for me is this. I'm a raid leader, and essentially I feel forced to pass my MT job off to another tank. And that has me all emo and depressed.

I don't know, maybe proper balance means every tanking class is equally worried about losing their roles.

[Murdog]

However, what niche is filled by Warriors? All three of the other classes have a fairly clear design intent, but with Warriors as the "Jack of all trades," how can you make a boss focused around their abilities, without making it easier to be the tank that can handle physical damage more easily (Druids), or the other tank that can get block-capped (Paladins).

Dont be a scrub ???? i will bet my account that world first's and top 10 will be done with a majority of warrior "MT" ( again i use the term loosely because there will prolly be not many 1 tank fights) cause why ??? they are bringing the player that tank has been with them through EVERYTHING so they are gonna put him in and guess what they will get the job done, as well as myself i will prolly be in that boat as well by tanking a majority of Ulduar.

Dispite what people think should happend whenever a tank class goes upto a boss's weather it magic dmg, spike dmg all tanks will be able todo it if you are prepared for the fight. Which ever tank you have around you will use your regular high attendance tank that has been with you for most of your guilds raiding he will take 9 times out of 10.

[warpdrive]

However, what niche is filled by Warriors? All three of the other classes have a fairly clear design intent, but with Warriors as the "Jack of all trades," how can you make a boss focused around their abilities, without making it easier to be the tank that can handle physical damage more easily (Druids), or the other tank that can get block-capped (Paladins).

that's just it...War tanks can tank it ALL.

the reason you bring a war tank is that he/she can do all the fights quite well...best at anything? maybe not, but the differance is so small it's almost not noticeable.

I'm a Warrior tank, and can MT or OT/hatefulls any boss in the game right now. my past guilds agree, that when in progressive content, I MT regardless of gear/class/or anything you can think up of next.
the guild I'm in now just canseled tonight's raid due to me not being able to make it.

bring the player not the class, seems true from the beginning till now.
I don't fear looseing a raid spot because of my class.

Warpdrive

[Heartwood]

On of the disparities I find between Pally vs. War OT/MT roles is in AoE threat situations with lots of little adds. I could be wrong here since I've never played a pally before, so any feedback from a Tankadin would be appreciated.

First, as a Prot War I generally start with no to little rage, whereas the Tankadin starts with full mana. Thunderclap has a six second CD between uses, which can be an awful long time if you just used it and have Shockwave on CD while some adds are tearing through your healers/dps. Consecrate appears to pulse much more frequently and is a 'fire and forget' AoE threat generator leaving the paladin to then be able to focus on specific run away mobs, or switch between specific mobs if DPS are split on targets. On the actual amount of specific threat generated on any given mob in AoE situations, I generally don't even bother competing because I know the Tankadins will exceed my AoE threat output.

Are these takes on the situation accurate, or am I off base due to unfamiliarity?

Thanks.

[Squashed]

The problem isn't that S3D favors Druids and DKs, its that if you have a warrior or paladin tanking corps, youare forced to bring certain classes not players, for their mitigation cooldowns.

You need one of the following: a Druid, a DK, or 2-3 classes with mitigation CDs (priests, paladins)

[Joacimcans]

OMG i figured it out they are going to rework ROS and make it fit into uludar so if a warrior is MTing he can Spell reflect deaden. and if it is not a warrior you can simply interupt it and you dps would just have to step up its game.

[Joacimcans]

The problem isn't that S3D favors Druids and DKs, its that if you have a warrior or paladin tanking corps, youare forced to bring certain classes not players, for their mitigation cooldowns.

You need one of the following: a Druid, a DK, or 2-3 classes with mitigation CDs (priests, paladins)

this might be true for 10 man 3D because my guild hasn't downed him yet but as a warrior i usually only have to use my own CD's of Sheild Wall and then Last Stand+ Mighty fire prot potion. then if we got really unlucky and the acolyte spawned right as a flame wall was coming i might need a 3rd CD from a different class but it usually isn't the case.

[Squashed]

this might be true for 10 man 3D...

I should have elaborated, yes, I was speaking of 10 man 3d. I consider that to be the hardest encounter currently in the game.

[mabijaoude]

We keep spinning the wheel here, and I have tried to actually bring a discussion forward on a couple of these forums about this but it always results in the same arguments again and again that just don't hold up to basic logic.

using the best tanks out there is not a way to prove an argument. also using any player skill is not the way to prove an argument since these figures can not be quantified. Also using Warriors have be MT for so long and are leaders of guilds so people feel comfortable with them is also not away to prove an argument. It comes down to CDs and stats. That is all. of course the best War tank will be better then any scrub DK/pally/Bear.

The issue lies if you hold all constants equal, skill of the player, experience in raiding, likability etc. and look directly at how much threat (if it is a non issue in 3.1 still then don't worry about it) and damage reduction. I have already sited examples that blizzard have admitted niches.

The real question is if you had 4 Equal tanks in all ways, come to a 25 man in 3.1, and there is no loyalties to a MT / OT role, will switching in a certain class for each encounter increase the raids survivability or not? and if so, which type of encounters would Warrior tanks be best suited in?

Please strip away your egos on your responses, yes we know there are amazing war tanks out there but this is more of a class question.

[Xav]

Ah, this is phenomenal timing for the next topic. I'm guessing cider has been talking about it over on those boards so I will go look.

[Oiysters]

I don't know, maybe proper balance means every tanking class is equally worried about losing their roles.

This. Good christ the QQ is out of control.

Blizzard has made giant steps toward "bring the player not the class" in the last couple of months. The process is still in progress, there is relatively open dialogue between the devs and the playerbase, and no one on either side is claiming that the game has arrived at perfection. Tweaks, corrections and adjustments are being made, and there will always be outliers. Discuss problems and solutions, but whining about wanting 'niches' when Blizzard is actively trying to eliminate them is pissing into the wind.

Love this site; it's a great resource and the majority of posts are serious and high quality. Hate having to bring my waders to make it through the warrior tears lately though. Too many people from the official forums making it over here these days.

[Ahti]

I don't think warriors need a niche, but what Cider pointed out about progression tanking is spot on - the real issue is not whether every class CAN tank an encounter, but which class does it easiest. If warriors can tank Sarth+3 but your DK can do it much more easily and let your guild focus on other things, then hey - they're a better tank.

His first line doesn't worry much too much, that's life. Warriors and paladin have a gross, significant advantage on Loatheb, but no one cares...because it's Loatheb. The hard fights are always going to be the ones where tank disparities show up.


My worry is just that every hard fight will consist of hard hitting bosses and/or magical burst, which effectively means "druids and DKs will always be best on hard fights." I guess we'll see.

[Draks]

The real question is if you had 4 Equal tanks in all ways, come to a 25 man in 3.1, and there is no loyalties to a MT / OT role, will switching in a certain class for each encounter increase the raids survivability or not? and if so, which type of encounters would Warrior tanks be best suited in?

Yes, and that question is exactly why there's a bit of concern going around. I cannot think of any (non-gimick) fight mechanics that would favor Paladins/Warriors in the same manner that current hard hitting bosses favor Druids/DKs. As such is makes sense to have one of the latter two classes as MT due to the lack of potential downside.

[Brucimus]

The bottomline for me is this. I'm a raid leader, and essentially I feel forced to pass my MT job off to another tank. And that has me all emo and depressed.

WHO CARES? as long as you get the win.... it's all that matters

[mabijaoude]

WHO CARES? as long as you get the win.... it's all that matters

This is one of my points, As a warrior tank I agree, if there is a better class for the job equally skilled, I should be replaced as MT for that specific encounter because it is best for the Raid. As long as the boss drops that is what the raid wants to see. I have no problem with niches since they will be impossible to avoid, as long as there are niches for every class. If the best choice for lets say the 4 Hardest encounters doesn't include warriors (Again keeping everything equal and egos aside) then warriors are broken. and might not be able to be fixed that is fine, but it seems these discussions get squashed so quickly before there is a reasonable discussion on how warriors (and I see pallies might be in a similar boat) can be fixed. On other forums I discussed buffing shields, they need to be more important on boss fights, a mere 1-3 K block on a 15-20K hit doesn't nothing. Something like Shield Block could be buffed to increase block value more and/or reflect 25-50% spell damage for the time it is up. Which will help give us some more spell reflect, also not being able to spell reflect certain boss spells I don't see the point in that, and spell cast should be able to be reflected, so it adds a bit more utility.

[Brucimus]

also not being able to spell reflect certain boss spells I don't see the point in that, and spell cast should be able to be reflected, so it adds a bit more utility

side question kinda OT
is there a way to track how much damage spell reflects do? I never see them on Recount or WWS.