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Thread: Soooo Why Not 30 minute Shouts for us?

  1. #21
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    Reagents? Seriously? As if I need MORE crap in my bags.

    (Though a megaphone would be kinda funny)
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  2. #22
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    No reagent. If 30 minutes means using a reagent, keep shouts on the short duration
    Yeah needing a reagent to shout seems fairly ridiculous.
    i would like to have the option. so those of you who are to cheap to buy a regent would still be able to use your short ass buff
    Last edited by Brucimus; 02-13-2009 at 09:30 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Reagents? Seriously? As if I need MORE crap in my bags.

    (Though a megaphone would be kinda funny)
    it would have to be reagents because that's the chosen mechanic for raid wide 30 min buffs it seems. Hardly fair if warrior shouts cost no mana, take no reagents and last 30 mins.

  4. #24
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    It's not a matter of cheap at all. It's a matter of:

    1) some reagent that, like most, likely starts out stacking to 10 or 20 for a year (or more - see arcane dust) before Blizzard relents and increases stack size.

    2) Eating yet another bag slot, when warrior bag space is already at a huge premium
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  5. #25
    Anyone know Bliz's thoughts what balancing mechanic this is? (HoW, BS and CS)

    Its too good so it should be short? We think its funny watching them run around and buff mid-fight?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by klor View Post
    No, our defensive stance is equivalent to your righteous fury... which is a 30 minute buff compared to our permanent defensive stance..

    However your shouts(auras) are a permanent buff compared to our 2minute ones.. PLUS you get blessings that are also 30minute buffs now...so...
    RF is just the threat/DR portion of Defensive Stance. Our seal gives us access to roughly 30% of our threat ability. To rephrase my comparison slightly differently, imagine if you couldn't use Revenge or benefit from the IDS enrage without Commanding Shout active.

    I was trying to avoid bringing this whole thing up because it'll just sound like Paladin QQ, but even after the seal duration buff we still have two 30 minute buffs to keep active that, combined, give us around the same benefit as the Warrior's passive stance. Seal + RF combined have roughly the same effect on Paladin threat and survivability that Defensive Stance has on Warrior threat and survivability.

    Compare shouts to auras and blessings all you like. Those comparisons make a lot more sense. All I'm saying is don't try to compare shouts to seals.
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  7. #27
    And regarding reagents: I imagine that, if Blizzard were to decide to buff shouts to 30 minutes, they still wouldn't include a reagent just because it would be silly.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Compare shouts to auras and blessings all you like. Those comparisons make a lot more sense. All I'm saying is don't try to compare shouts to seals.
    WTB Battle Aura and Commanding Aura
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    WTB Battle Aura and Commanding Aura
    and there we have it.. the real way in my opinion to solve this.

    Heres a thought, why not tie Commanding Aura to defensive stance, and Battle Aura to the other 2 stances?.. or add a 3rd aura and have one aura for each stance ?

  10. #30
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    Yeah, that'll happen. In any case, your idea is too foolproof; you can't forget to re-aura when you die.
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  11. #31
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    That's an excellent idea actually.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warwench View Post
    and there we have it.. the real way in my opinion to solve this.

    Heres a thought, why not tie Commanding Aura to defensive stance, and Battle Aura to the other 2 stances?.. or add a 3rd aura and have one aura for each stance ?
    Because berserker stance already has an "aura" also known as Rampage
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    This. I've been largely trying to avoid the discussion but Jere says this well. You simply can't compare seals and shouts. Warriors don't lose nearly as much by not having a shout active that a Paladin loses by not having a seal active.

    Imagine that you had to refresh Defensive Stance every two minutes. That's a little more accurate in terms of overall effect to the class.

    I'm not really arguing either way on whether shout duration should be changed, I'm just saying that "Seals got buffed" is not a good argument to make for it.
    I don't necessarily agree with the idea that defensive stance and seals are of comparable value to their class.

    A good argument to make against changing shout duration is the fact that seals affect one person where shouts affect the entire party. Even then, a slight change wouldn't be bad, but they should certainly not be treated as something that's equal to seals.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    This. I've been largely trying to avoid the discussion but Jere says this well. You simply can't compare seals and shouts. Warriors don't lose nearly as much by not having a shout active that a Paladin loses by not having a seal active.

    I've never seen discussions like this as a strict comparison between the two, but rather, as a "they figured out this was stupid for one two minute buff, why haven't they figured it out for these other ones."

    They design encounters forcing you to spread out further than shouts can reach, yet still insist on keeping an arbitrary stupid short time limit on it. Its just as frustrating as the pally seal thing was, if not as "important."

    I do think its really kind of funny that they basically swapped the mechanics of stances and buffs for warriors and pally's.

  15. #35
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    I think a minor glyph and/or 1-2 talent points for making the shout last 10 minutes even would be a great idea. 2-3 minutes is a pain. Id be elated with 10 minutes.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hit Me View Post
    I don't necessarily agree with the idea that defensive stance and seals are of comparable value to their class.
    I think his point was to try to come up with an example of something you had to refresh for yourself only or else there would be a noticeable difference in performance. Like, if you didn't refresh defensive stance every two minutes in his example, you would notice yourself taking more damage and not doing as much threat. It isn't a very solid comparison, cause warriors (I don't think) don't really have anything comparable to seals (whereas shaman do), so there really isn't a good metaphor to make for it. I think his (and my) underlying point was that you can't really use seals as the driving point for buffing shouts, since they really don't compare closely. Shouts do need to be buffed in my (and I think Lore's opinion) though. The arguing point should more be along the lines of "pally auras don't need to be refreshed" or "blessings last 10 minutes", or something more comparable.

  17. #37
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    Don't forget the short range on shouts, meaning that while tanking only melee get the benefit of the 2 min commanding shout, if you Bloodrage and shout before charging into the boss, then range can have it for a little while at first.

    I would be happy just to have the shouts off the GCD though.

  18. #38
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    To answer the original poster, it is because it can be exploited.

    Shouts are an area of effect cast, currently you can do this with a shout. Go to the caster grp and cast commanding shout, then go to the melee group and cast battle shout. Not a big deal with 2minute shouts, but if it was 10 or even 30minutes, that's 2 powerful shouts for the cost of practically nothing.

    An easy fix is to make shouts raidwide, but I suspect it uses the same implementation as demoralizing shout which will also need to be modified. Basically blizzard is probably too lazy or considers it a low priority considering the effort involved.

  19. #39
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    Since you both seem to be missing the point that Lore was trying to make..

    Seals are not in any shape or way in comparison to shouts. Like Lore said, imagine if you could not shield slam without commanding shout up..then imagine that it ate the commanding shout when used. Then shouts could be compared to seals as this is how seals used to be.

    Shouts are completely comparable to auras and blessings, as they are the same thing. Like many have said, blessings offer 10minutes for a single party member at the cost of mana. Whereas shouts give it to everyone in range at the cost of rage for 2 minutes. If they would just bump them up to 5 minutes, they would be alright, however that would mess with totem times and Shamans would cry that they have to waste 3.5 GCDs every 5 minutes where as a warrior only has to waste one. Granted they can use theirs outside of combat with no real drawback, but many won't see that.

    Also, to further on the note of adding shouts into our stances. That is a terrible idea and it takes out some of the group optimization (thats not the word i am looking for). I don't know about you, but plenty of my 5mans have been full of melee and had no paladin. Currently I am able to throw up battleshout to increase their dps AND my dps (since commanding shout becomes a joke in 5mans once you reach a certain point..the same as 10mans) and am able to buff the group accordingly whereas if the commanding shout was built into my defensive stance, I would no longer be able to do so. This is a bad idea. I wouldn't mind them being just like auras, but even then that would take away some of the uniqueness of it. I think the best idea was the idea of making them last for the duration of combat. Make them cost rage, and make it so you only have to hit it once for the entire duration, then have it wear off shortly after combat is over (a grace period) so that trash pulls or 5mans won't become bothersome and useless to shout. DEFINATELY a much better and unique idea. I <3 whoever made that idea.

    /rant
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  20. #40
    Increasing the radius on the shouts seems like a good call (imo, if you can read my /yell, you should benefit from my shout :P)

    I like the "Lasts until shortly after combat ends" idea as well, similar to the potion cooldown. Doesn't really help much when soloing or on trash clears though, when you go in and out of combat frequently... and in my experience, that's when shouts tend to be the most annoying.
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