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Yeah, removing the rage cost would make keeping them up a lot less of a headache.
That's why I specifically suggested "X minutes duration, or the duration of a fight, whichever is higher." I'm still very much in favor of the idea to make Battle and Commanding Shout rage-free, to avoid the silliness of using an inspiring shout after a fight rather than before.Originally Posted by Lore
Just tagging a long here on page #5 to say ... I wouldn't want this. Everything we do (except charge and taunt) costs rage, why would we change that now. It's not needed, unnecessary changes are a bad thing and more often that not just create a new issue.
Cause shouts don't require mana or reagents and are not required for a successful spell rotation, whereas Paladin's need to constantly be keeping their Seals active in order to either hold aggro, regen mana/health or deal more damage. I can see taking away rage requirements for it, as like energy, runic power and mana, it's required for your spell rotation to keep your AP or health up.
Shouts require rage and a real PITA to buff at the start of the fight as a tank due to the fact that you have to choose between your first threat gen ability or a shout.
I conceed the point that shouts and seals are two different beasts, however I do agree that the duration of a shout needs to be increased, maybe it's not as big a deal for a prot warrior to have to shout every two minutes but to make a DPS warrior use a GCD on a shout every two minutes is rather flawed to me. Also with the limited range the benefit of a warrior shout is pretty limited when you consider that most of the time the warrior giving commanding will be ~30 yards away.
I think increasing the shout duration would be a great way to solve this problem, the question is how long should the shout last?
I think 10 minutes would probably be the ideal length of time. That way it would be long enough to encompass the entirety most boss battles but not such a long duration that the warrior does still have to refresh it. Making shouts a presence similar to a druids leader of the pack or a paladins aura would be awesome, even if it did have limited rage but I doubt it would become a reality.
I tried to read over this whole thing and i didn't see anywhere, although I could have missed it, the discussion of talents into battle shout as well. I personally don't like how short the buff is on BS. At the same time I wouldn't mind a regent for a longer buff. To be honest my prob with BS is that with five talent points our buff is only 2 mins long and is still less powerful then the pallys 30 min blessing of might. I would think that five talent points should be MORE THAN ENOUGH to at least level the playing field. then you have to invest in a glyph and more talent points to increase the duration to 5 mins. those talent points could be very usefull somewhere else in the talent tree esp considering it's less powerful still than the pally buff as previously stated. I know you could just put your talent points else where, but unless you do nothing but raid then you hurt yourself and your grp when a ret pally is not around. Even in 10 man raids you can't always be sure there will be a "might" buff and then esp in heroics. Blizzard always talks about not wanting certain classes to always be "wanted" in a raid, well I personally as a warr always look forward to a pally to be in grp for "might" buff becuase 1. it's more powerful than my shout and 2. because I know I don't have to rebuff 15 times in the next 30 mins to cover there one buff
Can you explain a bit more? Fully talented, both provide the same amount of AP/RAP. The only difference is BS is shorter duration and hits the whole raid while BoM costs a reagent and hits a whole class. BoM isn't more powerful than BS fully talented, though it might be more convenient.
it actually provides one more ap. which is how it overrides bs
That's odd. When did they change it? Last I had seen, both provided 688 AP fully talented.
Even so, if someone is really worried about a 1 AP difference, then that is kind of disappointing.
They changed it in 3.0.3 so that 2 minute shout would not overwrite 10 minute blessing
(World of Warcraft 3.0.3 WotLK Patch Notes | WotLK Secrets & Guides)Blessing of Might: Rank 8 points increased slightly to prevent from being overwritten by Battle Shout 8 that has a shorter duration (also applies to Greater Blessing of Might 3.)
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With regard to BS, I think the concern is that for 7 talent points, warriors get an inferior buff(not due to 1 ap) that is harder to apply and doesn't last as long.
Paladins have to spend 2 points for imp bom (if I'm remembering correctly)
Yeah, but our talent trees are different overall. Shoot, warriors pay 2 points for 30% more block while paladins pay 3 points for it. Talent trees will be different for both classes. Sometimes it falls in favor of paladins and sometimes it falls in favor of warriors. If it is going to go into a talent point discussion, then it isn't as simple as looking at one talent. It might cost 5 in your tree for another reason totally outside of in-fight mechanics.
However, I disagree that it is harder to apply. It is definitely more of a nuisance to keep up (2 min duration), but not to apply (raid wide application). Blessings are more difficult to apply (reagent + class wide application), but less of a nuisance to keep up (30 mins).
Don't get me wrong, I do think BS needs to be buffed up in terms of duration, but his/her assertion was that it was more powerful, making it sound like it was 50-100 (or more) AP difference, when in reality it was more like 1-2 AP difference. I am all for buffing it, but not for using polarized info to get there. Our intents and connotations should be as honest as our words.
Yeah, this is what I meant to say in so many words. I def could have worded a lot better. thx
I believe they have stated that they were gonna look into talents that gave the same buff to raids but costed more. So the fact that imp might only takes 2, but the shout takes 5 maybe addressed in 3.1, but then maybe not because it also effects Commanding shout.
Does anyone actually use imp BS anymore? I guess for 10mans and instances. I make DPS warriors put up commanding cause its better then the prot warriors one in 25.
Personally make it five minutes and be done with it. Thats my opinion. 30mins is just too long, but i think 5mins is reasonable.
You should ask hunters without pallies in the raid if battle shout is harder to apply. 20 yard range is often less than the distance hunters are from the warriors. And in some fights, particularly in 10 mans if I'm the only war and there is 0 or 1 pally, keeping up battle shout can be a pain if melee are spread out for Sapph or whatever. [As an aside, battle shout is so much more valuable than commanding shout in almost every situation. I only use comm shout if another war or might is available.]
As far as the "difficult to apply" blessings goes, I would hardly call it "difficult." "Our intents and connotations should be as honest as our words." Remember? Besides, the reason it's not a single application like battle shout is because pallies have the flexibility of giving other buffs instead to people who don't need might. I'd be fine with shouting at different classes respectively if I had kings shout, wisdom shout, etc.
My thing is that bom was brought in line with the ap amount given by battle shout as part of the whole Wrath homogenization. I don't mind might being given love like that. However, battle shout was given no love at all. For the sake of "fairness," might was put on par ap-wise with battle shout, but battle suffers from limitations might doesn't that are more than nuisances.
Battle shout has a 20 yard restriction, fully talented and glyphed is only 4 1/2 minutes, requires rage (so, aside from having to keep it up in combat, if you want to cast it before the fight, you have to burn bloodrage), and uses cooldowns in combat.
Pally blessings are 10 minutes minimum. They can set it and forget it. Just pass out the blessings while everyone is buffing and you're done. No worrying about the hunters or melee that had to run out being out of range for the buff. No extra timer to worry with. No extra rage/GCD to burn.
The seals comparison was off. Blessing of might is right on, apples and apples (Blizz "made" them that). Blessing of might was inferior pre-homogenization regarding the AP granted, but was superior in virtually every other aspect. They brought it up to par in that department, but battle shout was untouched (except for getting a whopping 1 more minute from a glyph; compared to 30 minutes, or even 10 (which used to be 5 but was considered too tedious), that is hard to get excited about for me).
And the people talking about the logistics of a shout would do well to realize that they are going at the discussion from an irrelevant angle.
The argument I was always told regarding such a short buff timer on shouts was that they were so powerful. That now makes no sense in light of might being what it is, and now that weak argument is completely worthless.
40 yard range. 10 min baseline. Rage cost is fine. Reagent for longer duration is unnecessary.
Last edited by protlikeme; 02-20-2009 at 02:00 PM.
Umm battleshout was not left untouched. It used to only give melee AP and not ranged. When BoM was homogenized, so was BS as it was given the same effect as BoM (the inclusion of ranged AP). Again, lets be honest and argue for BS buffs using a non polarized discussion. I am all for them and think they should be given. Complaining about how BS got the shaft, etc. really doesn't help.
As per your other points, everything you said goes back to the difficult to maintain, easy to apply argument. You, just like a paladin, can apply the buff before the raid, only you do it with one cast and no reagent cost (though I would call that reagent cost a wash since you use a 1 minute cooldown to do that) compared to 8-10 casts, each costing a reagent and mana. Not to mention the mana cost of blessing an entire raid is a lot more than the rage cost of a single shout. Bear in mind, you are making too much of my words. In a strict comparison, BoM is harder to apply than BS (not talking about maintaining it during the fight). That doesn't mean either are "hard" per say, but that one takes more effort/resources than the other.
You are right that during the battle, it is difficult to maintain on hunters (again, difficult to maintain). Ours typically don't have any issue there as they can stay in the 20 yard range of the dps warrior (typically 30ish yards from the boss, depending on hit box sizes) and still DPS when we have warriors applying it. Some might have issues with that, but it works for us. Still, it is a big nuisance for BS. If the range and duration of BS were increased, then that would be great.
Sounds like a good suggestion.40 yard range. 10 min baseline. Rage cost is fine. Reagent for longer duration is unnecessary.
Last edited by jere; 02-20-2009 at 03:21 PM.
I think Shouts are symbolic of a warrior's relationship to melee fighting, requiring rage (read: combat) and having a limited AoE range.
Mourning Nightfall since 2.4.2.
My bad on the ranged AP oversight. The value of it is somewhat hamstrung by the 20 yard range, but it still is a buff. Staying within 20 yards isn't too difficult, but people who have been hunters for quite some time, I'd imagine, are used to doing their thing from farther away to avoid splash damage. And again, that wouldn't matter on a fight like 4H if a hunter was tanking the back two.
Maybe Blizzard should lower the mana cost of blessings since they're so oppressive? Hehe. The "difficulty" of applying any buffs that can be cast before engaging the boss and then require no attention from thereon out is strictly a matter of (in)convenience. And the inconvenience of having to cast multiple buffs for the different classes is more than offset by the utility of being able to give buffs more tailored to the recipient of the buff, as I noted earlier. If you want to be fair, don't talk like pallies really have it rough putting up all those buffs. It's an advantage, even though it requires more "work" outside of the actual encounter. They may take some of the tedium out of it like they have done in the past, but that is irrelevant to this conversation imo.
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