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Thread: Sigil of the unfaultering knight

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelean View Post
    540 def = no crits, ever.

    540 def with sigil = you might be crit.

    easy choice...
    quoted the important part for the simple folk.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelean View Post
    quoted the important part for the simple folk..
    And should it happen, he failed as a Death Knight Tank at least 12 sec before the oppotunity for that chance to present it self... or 18 sec's if he didn't have the talent for 6 sec extra duration.

    Frost Fever is so vital to us on bosses... Threat, Minimizing incomming damage... What the above comes down to is that IF it ever happened. he would have subjected him self to 20% more incomming damage for 12-18 seconds...

    So... no offence, again... not to be harsh... any Death Knight on current boss encounters who would be subjected to "540 def with sigil = you might be crit." should never be alowed tanking even if he where at 540 defence WITHOUT this sigil...

    I wouln't care about that insignifigant chance to actually be crit when it only can happen if you fail at something far more signifigant...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    You could argue that that is an unacceptable vulnerability, but honestly, 0.4% is a VERY small chance for the small window you may have the buff off, if at all.
    Actually, it is unacceptable, though it was proven in BC by paladins' reliance on Holy Shield to be uncrushable. With the duration and cooldown being the same, it was possible for HS to drop, the paladin get crushed, THEN HS is recast by simple server lag. This was changed coming into WotLK by giving HS a 10 second duration, 8 second cooldown. Also note that while a paladin that was uncrushable was also uncrittable, they still geared to the defense cap anyways to mitigate this narrow window from crits.


    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    So... no offence, again... not to be harsh... any Death Knight on current boss encounters who would be subjected to "540 def with sigil = you might be crit." should never be alowed tanking even if he where at 540 defence WITHOUT this sigil...
    There are two types of tanks that don't need 689 defense rating (540 skill maxed at 80). The first are corpses, the second are druids.

    What I find amusing, having respec'ed to unholy, is I no longer use IT in my standard DPS rotation. Rereading this thread made me chuckle as a result. (Rotation: Blood Tap, Plague Strike, 2x Scourge Strike, Bloodstrike, dump.)

    Afterthought. I should really change my sigil from SotUK. Mebbe I got time before raid...

  4. #24
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    If you're not getting a snare up on bosses you've got much bigger problems than not getting crit.

    Any tank that can't remotely keep up the sigil is a complete failure.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYanger View Post
    If you're not getting a snare up on bosses you've got much bigger problems than not getting crit.

    Any tank that can't remotely keep up the sigil is a complete failure.
    Keeping it up or not isn't the issue. Btw, it's a slow, not a snare.

    What dissappointments me is the logic of 'it can be up no matter what', and thus opting to rely on it instead of just eeking out the ~60 defense rating to be crit immune.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Actually, it is unacceptable, though it was proven in BC by paladins' reliance on Holy Shield to be uncrushable. With the duration and cooldown being the same, it was possible for HS to drop, the paladin get crushed, THEN HS is recast by simple server lag. This was changed coming into WotLK by giving HS a 10 second duration, 8 second cooldown. Also note that while a paladin that was uncrushable was also uncrittable, they still geared to the defense cap anyways to mitigate this narrow window from crits.
    Since IT does not have a 30 sec nor 28 sec cooldown, this can hardly be used to make any sorts of points... you have PLENTY of time to refresh... and as I already stated, after Frost Fever comes up, theres at least 12 sec (and 18 for some) to the buff to ends...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    There are two types of tanks that don't need 689 defense rating (540 skill maxed at 80). The first are corpses, the second are druids.
    The whole discussion here is can we rely on this sigil to be above those 689 or not... Making this a rather pointless comment on top of it... We ALL know that DK, Warriors, Palas need to be above 689 on a lvl 83 elite...

    This is not what is in question, the question is to if we can count on this sigil to provide that in the situations where it is needed... meaning when we are actually tanking that lvl 83...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    What I find amusing, having respec'ed to unholy, is I no longer use IT in my standard DPS rotation. Rereading this thread made me chuckle as a result. (Rotation: Blood Tap, Plague Strike, 2x Scourge Strike, Bloodstrike, dump.)

    Afterthought. I should really change my sigil from SotUK. Mebbe I got time before raid...
    Not using IT in your rotation without fail can only be done with the SS glyph and extreme luck...

    If you look at the top Unholy DK's out there they use IT, although not in great numbers.... regularly below 20 on a boss fight... but they still need to enshure Frost Fever, so if it doesn't proc from SS, then they need to refresh it...

    This is top DPS'ing death knights... I doubt that so many very successfull DK's out there are failing at there class and you have the new cure for more DPS... im very sorry... Unholy is reliant on desieses, and even stated by blizzard is that we are meant to be heavly relying on that...

    I Gues the world is wrong and your right... I do apologize for that.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The above only goes for DPS, for a tank Frost Fever is not only vital to your threat, it's only vital to decrease damage. That said.

    If your not keeping up Frost Fever as a tank, you fail in my eyes, 20% damage reduction through the bosses attack speed IS very important, and if it's not up you have to keep in mind that your raising the requirements on your healers...

    This means that at the stage where I recommend you can use this to reach the cap, in the beginning of your naxx career, your healers are at a gear level as well where this can actually affect the sutuation very badly... meaning your the reason for there failure even if you where at 540 flat out defence...

    THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE...

    That being said... IF your actually as a tank using the SS glyph, and have that VERY sharp eye to watch your desieses while doing all your other duties... Then ok, you cannot rely on this Sigil, but then you made a destinct choice on your tanking style... in other words you CHOOSE to not being able to use this sigil... not the other way around...
    Last edited by dotJEM; 02-16-2009 at 04:57 AM.

  7. #27
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    Esch, "unacceptable" is a value judgement, YOUR value judgment.

    Don't try to distribute it as unalienable fact. People are doing this, for better or for worse, and none of them are EXPLODING like the infamous parry-gib of dual wielding doom.

    I happen to agree with you, I don't want that window, no matter how small, but it isn't the end of the world if someone takes that chance. You recognize that it is not a matter of maintenance, it is a matter of the start of the fight. During this time (on a raid boss) you have a 0.4% chance, and if there is any window at all, it is for maybe one swing (that being said I don't know a tank who doesn't get IT off before any swings happen). So though I am reluctant to play to probability, that would mean that if probability holds true, you'd get crit on the opening melee swing of a boss once out of every 250 fights. Go check your stats on the Armory and tell me how many WotLK bosses you've downed. Now tell me which of those bosses would've killed you or done anything more than given an extra half a heal for your healers if he got a double damage melee attack on his first swing (ignoring avoidance which in my case rarely hits anyway).

    You say unacceptable because you don't want even a minute window of possibility for extra damage, but you really are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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  8. #28
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    Ditto Satorri

    But really?? Who would be using this as a way to cap def other than a new tank that is only doing herorics? IDK about you, but I use def as one of my primary avoidance+mitagation stats. Def not only give the best avoidance per stat point + it gives us more dam reduction on IBF.

    Bottom line though, I would not let a DK tank in any 25 man that was using this to cap def. If you "need" the sigil to cap def, then your not geared enough. Now if your floating the line with gems or chants, then I still wouldnt let you tank because you dont understand the basic premise of what a tank is. Tanks are there to mitigate, avoid, and smooth out damage intake. leaving yourself, even if for 1 or 2 swings at the start of the fight, to a crit is not right IMO. If you really want to take that chance, have fun, but when you get crit and killed and wipe, even if its monthes from now, is it really worth it?
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  9. #29
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    I meant slow, I was tired when I said snare, as for not letting someone tank because they know how to manage their stats rather than meeting your bizarre expectations? I'm glad we don't raid together. While I'm defense capped without the sigil anyway, at certain gear levels in the past I can definitely see it being useful for hitting the cap without having to sacrifice in other ways.
    If I could drop 10 defense in another slot for a solid upgrade, I'd very much do it knowing the sigil covers that. Heck, I tanked most of Naxx ages ago when I wasn't defense capped anyway and it was fine - yes you get crit, none of the bosses hit hard enough for that to matter. So having a window to get crit when I A) don't start a fight with IT or get it up before a boss is in melee range, or B) somehow just 'forget' to IT (Hint: Doesn't happen to anyone that isn't terrible), I don't see how anyone could even fathom it as being an issue.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    That being said... IF your actually as a tank using the SS glyph, and have that VERY sharp eye to watch your desieses while doing all your other duties... Then ok, you cannot rely on this Sigil, but then you made a destinct choice on your tanking style... in other words you CHOOSE to not being able to use this sigil... not the other way around...
    *chuckles* I played a healer shaman pre-WotLK and I had to track multiple totem timers/locations. Eyeballing whether or not Frost Fever is on my target is not that hard, and there are mods as well.

    I do admit that 1) I tend to run with a Frost DK (and leave IT to him) and 2) I was reevaluating my rotation during a 10 man pug last night. IT is sneaking in, partly from dropping a SS for Unholy Armor refresh/IT and a spot in my rotation where I can either Plague Strike or IT. Depending on how that goes, I may reslot the SotUK for mitigation or keep my 203 SS sigil for DPS/threat.

    However, I could take IT off my bar, and still be crit immune. That's my core argument, that I am crit immune by gear, not by using a buff from food, another player or a proc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Esch, "unacceptable" is a value judgement, YOUR value judgment.

    (snip to save thread space)

    You say unacceptable because you don't want even a minute window of possibility for extra damage, but you really are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
    I make that judgement from this logic:

    1) Raid level, you have had time to research, review, collect gear.
    2) As a tank, you know you need to be adequate to survive bosses' damage. Defense, avoidance, mitigation and stamina are largely gear related.
    3) Choosing to not use adequate gear risks the raid, and is a decision made without the consent of other folks.

    Note consent - if a tank shows up, folks are putting faith in his ability to do his job, fill the role, etc. If he fails to hold aggro, doesn't use his class abilities or otherwise fails to perform, folks see it. I feel gear falls into the same spectrum, where you either make the effort and choose to be 540 def, or you choose not to be 540.

    Whether or not you're 540 is meaningless when solo'ing, as if you die, it's just you. If a 25 man boss crits you, however, you're liable to die and wipe a raid. Does that make sense on why I feel "unacceptable" is appropriate? I've joked about anyone being able to tank, if enough heals are tossed at him/her/it, but why risk a crit window if you don't need to?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYanger View Post
    I meant slow, I was tired when I said snare, as for not letting someone tank because they know how to manage their stats rather than meeting your bizarre expectations? I'm glad we don't raid together. While I'm defense capped without the sigil anyway, at certain gear levels in the past I can definitely see it being useful for hitting the cap without having to sacrifice in other ways.
    Apologies for being picky. Bored @ work = nitpickiness ensues.

    If DK 'has' to use the sigil to hit 535 for heroics, I'm okay with it. I expect at least one person in any pug heroic group is learning/gearing. I'm more focused on raid content, as staring a boss in the face and seeing 5-6k noncrits makes me realize what a 10-12k crit would look like if it happened. (BTW, Did you know patchwerk can hit for 31k noncrit, in 25 heroic naxx?)

    However, I was 'okay' on being crit immune from level 70 to 80, by using the Cobalt armor set (guildie made it for Blacksmith skill ups and tossed it to me). I used pieces of that almost to Naxx, just to give me a +defense piece of gear if nothing better had dropped or been rewarded from a quest. I won't say it was lvl 80 epics, but it showed me that there is enough +defense gear out there to collect from 70 to 80 that someone choosing to be geared to tank would do okay.


    @Everyone. I'm enjoying this thread, both in the responses & discussion (yes, that includes you dotJEM!). Having to think about DK tanking is certainly more intersting than work.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Ditto Satorri

    But really?? Who would be using this as a way to cap def other than a new tank that is only doing herorics? IDK about you, but I use def as one of my primary avoidance+mitagation stats. Def not only give the best avoidance per stat point + it gives us more dam reduction on IBF.
    Funny been my arguement that this was a sigil that could be used from the very biginning of your raid tanking career... thats not far fetched from the above... Difference is i i don't se problem with that DK being in naxx 10 either... and even in most parts of the 25 man wings...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Bottom line though, I would not let a DK tank in any 25 man that was using this to cap def. If you "need" the sigil to cap def, then your not geared enough.
    Ha!... one can (make great effort to) fall below even with some of the best tanking gear out there... look at my profile... if i removed RotSG i would fall below... :P...

    It's not impossible that someone would use the sigil with my gear instead of the Rune... personally never... but hey


    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    However, I could take IT off my bar, and still be crit immune. That's my core argument, that I am crit immune by gear, not by using a buff from food, another player or a proc.
    Not much to do with the current discussion though... since thats about weather its ok or not to use this buff for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Apologies for being picky. Bored @ work = nitpickiness ensues.

    If DK 'has' to use the sigil to hit 535 for heroics, I'm okay with it. I expect at least one person in any pug heroic group is learning/gearing.
    What about a DK starting in naxx 10... im curious... becouse this is my standpoint... ive said from the very beginning that i don't have an issue with one using this to cap as he enters naxx... but he should keep the focus of getting to 540 without this throughout naxx...

    While my point of view for that is options on sigils... i prefere using my SoA sigil for threat instead... but thats just me...
    Im just thinking back how much a pain in the ass things was in the biginning of my carieer... and i think this can lift that part a bit so you gen relax more in your gearing untill you finnaly have those naxx shienies... which at this point you should almost make effort not being over 540...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    I'm more focused on raid content, as staring a boss in the face and seeing 5-6k noncrits makes me realize what a 10-12k crit would look like if it happened. (BTW, Did you know patchwerk can hit for 31k noncrit, in 25 heroic naxx?)
    Hatefull strikes, as far as im aware they are, even with no defence, unable to crit... Ohh and my max strike has been 24k...
    Last edited by dotJEM; 02-17-2009 at 02:15 PM.

  12. #32
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    defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense........

    spelling are hard

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense........

    spelling are hard
    Troo story!!
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense........

    spelling are hard
    While making remarks about others ability to spell... is seriously sad if you ask me... it's even worse when your wrong...

    defence - definition of defence by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    defence or US defense

    Defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Defense or defence (see -ce/-se) may refer to

    /golfclap...

  15. #35
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    I agree with Satorri. I don't see a problem with using this to cap defense.

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