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Thread: Sigil of the unfaultering knight

  1. #1
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    Sigil of the unfaultering knight

    Having had this sigil since it recently came out because even though I was at def cap it still helped more then the other two, I've started to hear curious things about the sigil such as DK tanks are starting to rely and use it for keeping themselves at the def soft cap and constantly refreshing IT for it's continued use. this has brought me to the following questions if someone could take the time to review.

    1. Is using it in the first place a safe idea or is this asking for trouble?

    2. If yes to #1 would this be a prime choice to start using to max out my other avoidances/hp.

    3. If one is say disease juggling is it such a huge loss in threat to keep bounce out a HB in the rotation so one could refresh the buff?

    If I wasn't sick I'd do the math myself but I'm to fuzzy brained right now I just thought I'd bring it up to tankspot though and see your guy's oppinion on it.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroborous View Post
    Having had this sigil since it recently came out because even though I was at def cap it still helped more then the other two, I've started to hear curious things about the sigil such as DK tanks are starting to rely and use it for keeping themselves at the def soft cap and constantly refreshing IT for it's continued use. this has brought me to the following questions if someone could take the time to review.

    1. Is using it in the first place a safe idea or is this asking for trouble?

    2. If yes to #1 would this be a prime choice to start using to max out my other avoidances/hp.

    3. If one is say disease juggling is it such a huge loss in threat to keep bounce out a HB in the rotation so one could refresh the buff?

    If I wasn't sick I'd do the math myself but I'm to fuzzy brained right now I just thought I'd bring it up to tankspot though and see your guy's oppinion on it.

    It simply doesnt worse the risk imo.

    If you doesnt have agro trouble, it can still be a good avoidance sigil (the only one in fact), but I wouldnt count on it for def. Plus with the new runeforge you really dont need it to be at def cap.

    EDIT: I didnt know that the buff will pop even if you miss IT.

    So there is no reason left to avoid it to reach def cap; it still easy to reach it without though, but it can help (especially in resist gear, or stam gear, etc.)
    Last edited by Feanorr; 02-13-2009 at 04:44 PM.

  3. #3
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    As Feanorr said it's the only "avoidance" sigil we got atm, so use it if you need more avoidance and use a dmg sigil if you need threat more.

  4. #4
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    Since the proc is a 100% proc, meaning that everytime you throw a IT on something you will have the defence buff for the next 30 sec.

    And since you will use IT way more often than that as a tank, yes you can rely on it for reaching your defence cap.

    I bought it my self just to test it out, and well it works just fine for that. But personally I keep my OB/SS segil on for more Threat since I don't need more defence as is.

  5. #5
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    This in no way should be used as a way to reach the crit cap. That is just a stupid idea IMO since you are leaving yourself open to a bad RNG in something that is so easy to cap.

    Honestly, stacking def is your best option for avoidance anyways, so I typically sit at about 570 in my normal tank gear. I did buy this sigil for the reasons listed above. Its an avoidance sigil. Its quite a nice one too for fights like Sarth 3D, OT patch, and more fights in the future. I really hope blizz gives us something similar in Uldar. Its nice having the options between threat (which is my standard sigil) and avoidance.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

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    This sigil is just like paladins using holy shield to get uncrushable in BC. You're going to have 100% up time because the CD is at max 1/3rd of the duration, so roll with it if that's what you need -- there are lots of reports of people making it work for them to hit the uncrittable mark, and really, these people that need these are "almost there" and are only crittable vs. raid bosses/heroic bosses, not trash. It's much easier to maintain a rotation (and thus uptime) on a boss than the trash that goes poof.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    And since you will use IT way more often than that as a tank, yes you can rely on it for reaching your defence cap.
    That is a dangerous method to keep the 540 def skill. Yes, you can do it. First time you run Military wing Naxx and get strangulate'd before your IT, you are vulnerable to a crit string. The responsibility of a tank is to ensure the RNG is the lowest possible cause of a death.

    Personally, I got 540 defense pre-Naxx on quest, Rep (Wyrmrest) gear and normal dungeon drops. I didn't even have the Argent Crusade rep helm enchant or RotSG. It does take effort, but it ensures you're a reliable tank instead of a gimmick.

    I can see someone using it while gearing up, especially in heroics, but once you hit Naxx, being 540+ skill baseline is a requirement.

  8. #8
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    To clarify alot of posters are taking this on a personal level, no this is just all theory crafting as it does not help me to go under 540 personally as the only way I could do that is remove enchants (lol) or change the 2 plus def gems I have (also lulz). No this is a question to the entire community whether the risk vs reward is worth it, 10 def skill for example is about something like .1 crit reduction so if for some reason it doesn't get refreshed how likely is it that your really going to be crit in the time it takes to throw it back up? Once a career? What's the chance that one instance will cause a wipe? The entire idea of this discussion is whether it's truly ok to sacrifice def planning to making it up with the sigil in as mentioned a similar way to holy shield which several pallies used to reach their personal cap, in favor for sta or raw avoidance.

  9. #9
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    Personaly i think even 1 in a million is a to big risk when its not needed. After the new wepon rune getting 540 def is quite easy as a dk and you would have to remove def gems/enchants or maybe even put on a cupple of pure dps pieces to get below 540 defence or get a hold on a set with realy low def on each piece.

    So yeah its not needed and in my book unessesary to rely on this sigil to reach 540def even if the chances are one in a million or once in a lifetime. Personaly i know it would give me more tension knowing i had to have it up at all times. Its more of a psycological thing i guess?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    This in no way should be used as a way to reach the crit cap. That is just a stupid idea IMO since you are leaving yourself open to a bad RNG in something that is so easy to cap.

    Honestly, stacking def is your best option for avoidance anyways, so I typically sit at about 570 in my normal tank gear. I did buy this sigil for the reasons listed above. Its an avoidance sigil. Its quite a nice one too for fights like Sarth 3D, OT patch, and more fights in the future. I really hope blizz gives us something similar in Uldar. Its nice having the options between threat (which is my standard sigil) and avoidance.
    if you can't keep it up 100% on bosses with 30 sec and secure proc, then you might as well put your BB talent somehere else since this is a similar effect you must be getting nothing out of...

    There is nothing wrong with using this Sigil to reach the soft cap at all... ive tested it out in full naxx where i was able to have full uptime on bosses...

    And as for defence, when you reach the 540 def, dodge is actually a better stat for us... defence best for a shield barer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    That is a dangerous method to keep the 540 def skill. Yes, you can do it. First time you run Military wing Naxx and get strangulate'd before your IT, you are vulnerable to a crit string. The responsibility of a tank is to ensure the RNG is the lowest possible cause of a death.

    Personally, I got 540 defense pre-Naxx on quest, Rep (Wyrmrest) gear and normal dungeon drops. I didn't even have the Argent Crusade rep helm enchant or RotSG. It does take effort, but it ensures you're a reliable tank instead of a gimmick.

    I can see someone using it while gearing up, especially in heroics, but once you hit Naxx, being 540+ skill baseline is a requirement.
    Since you are now talking Trash that becomes a very mood point since you don't need 540 defence on that, i have yet to meet a boss Naxx, Heroics or whatever that silences over 30 sec...

    And for the 540+ requirement in naxx... on bosses only, and here you will be able to keep it up 100% of the time... if you play this sigil right it can be 100% reliable...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And finnaly, lets get something straigt, i would never suggest people to get to the point where there defence+segil meant they where at 540 and then stop, i would recommend that people go for 540 flat... BUT... i find it perfectly fine to use this to do so IF your below and are at a gear level that would otherwise support naxx...

    Way back before RotSG and this Segil, for me to cap defence i had to use som heavy pure defence items and gems where i could have had much better options with this sigil... i wouldn't hessitate to do so in that situation...

    Today with RotSG 450 is easyer to cap with more balanced gear...
    Last edited by dotJEM; 02-10-2009 at 11:39 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oroborous View Post
    The entire idea of this discussion is whether it's truly ok to sacrifice def planning to making it up with the sigil in as mentioned a similar way to holy shield which several pallies used to reach their personal cap, in favor for sta or raw avoidance.
    Short Answer: No.

    Long Answer: Holy shield improves blocking and threat. While it can push boss crits off the attack table (IE, 'uncrushable'), it's still a required ability that you need to maintain. Get silenced or mana drained to 0? You're exposing yourself. I would find it hard to believe that a paladin wouldn't be at 540 defense, regardless of what libram they opted to equip.

    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    And for the 540+ requirement in naxx... on bosses only, and here you will be able to keep it up 100% of the time... if you play this sigil right it can be 100% reliable...
    Reliable isn't based on a proc. It's 'hard coded' in that you can turn around, afk, go DC, etc. and know it's not an issue. I have seen a prot tank DC on Sarth and manage to hold aggro and take the hits. While unusual, it's a result of the effort he put into the gear to ensure he was maxed. If a DK running the sigil (and 100% reliant on it) DC'ed, in less than 30 seconds he's open to getting critted.

    We, as players, can gear to 540 and ensure that the only crits we'll see are the mob specific attacks (IE, Fire Revenants in HoL) instead of having a slim chance by any attack, including bosses. Sigh. I want Garr 2.0, it would help folks understand gear matters.

    Way back before RotSG and this Segil, for me to cap defence i had to use som heavy pure defence items and gems where i could have had much better options with this sigil... i wouldn't hessitate to do so in that situation...
    Getting gear requires the effort. I can think of several tanks I've met that skimped out, relied on gems, etc. to make the 540 def mark pre 3.0.08 patch. HOWEVER, if you research quests, look up rep rewards, etc., you can find a massive number of gear pieces that fit a DK well, provide adequate defense without pure defense gems or giving up socket bonuses. You can't just go to a vendor and buy it or expect the loot to appear when you ding 80, you have to actively get it. Ciderhelm's guide is a good starting point, albeit more for Warrior/Paladin tanks.

  12. #12
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    This in no way should be used as a way to reach the crit cap. That is just a stupid idea IMO since you are leaving yourself open to a bad RNG in something that is so easy to cap.
    This is not really true.
    This may be the frost tank speaking out of me because I always use an icy touch within 30 seconds anyways - but if you know you rely on the proc to reach 540 def you can make sure to have enough time to apply a second IT if your first one misses.

    Using this sigil to reach the def cap is not wrong at all. I passed the Sigil of awareness to our unholy dps dk and I will take the next one that drops and exchange sigils/different piece of gear or differently gemmed piece of the same gear depending on the encounter.

    a 100% proc is no RNG, it is a sure thing.

    I wouldnt exactly plan on sacrificing def rating to make up for it with this sigil, it just happened with the better gear I got. I dont see the necessity to regem for defense and lose threat when I can use this.

    dcing during a boss fight is really the only situation where I can see that it "might" be a problem. but here again, if you know you rely on it your other tanks should know this too and act accordingly.

  13. #13
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    I'd prefer not to use it, but it's silly to say that there's any huge downside to using it to reach the cap. If you're not ITing every 30 seconds something is horribly wrong with your tanking rotations, and you're probably taking a hell of a lot more damage than the small chance to be crit is causing.

  14. #14
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    a 100% proc is no RNG, it is a sure thing.
    And to make it proc, you have to land an IT, once every 30 seconds ; and that one is far from sure. Most of the time you'll be fine, yep, but go tell your raid leader you got one-shotted because you failed to land your initial IT and got wtfpwned, not being uncrittable. Pretty sure he/she won't be happy.

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    You don't even have to hit, you just have to cast it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Reliable isn't based on a proc. It's 'hard coded' in that you can turn around, afk, go DC, etc. and know it's not an issue. I have seen a prot tank DC on Sarth and manage to hold aggro and take the hits. While unusual, it's a result of the effort he put into the gear to ensure he was maxed. If a DK running the sigil (and 100% reliant on it) DC'ed, in less than 30 seconds he's open to getting critted.
    Another mood point, if you DC for more that 30 as a DK, your BB goes down, IT debuff wears off, and your not ready to use your CD's... and if your at a place where you use this according to my recomendations... 540 defence or not.. you go down hard...

    If you go AFK on a boss fight while tanking a boss, your obviously an idiot or worse...

    And finally im not even going to be bothered with such redicilous arguments untill the day that blizzard actually incorporates this into the encounter.

    Imagine that "Boss ability: Disconnects the tank every 2 min"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    We, as players, can gear to 540 and ensure that the only crits we'll see are the mob specific attacks (IE, Fire Revenants in HoL) instead of having a slim chance by any attack, including bosses. Sigh. I want Garr 2.0, it would help folks understand gear matters.
    With this segil and 530 defence + this sigil you can also enshure just that, unless your not palying right...

    Any half-crappy to awsome Death-knight tank will have this buff up 100% of his in combat time... meaning for him it's equivalent to a 53 flat out boost...

    Whenever you hit your Icy Thouch button, you get 53 defence, it doesn't matter if your IT is reflected, it doesn't matter if the mob is immune to frost, it doesn't matter if it's resisted...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Getting gear requires the effort. I can think of several tanks I've met that skimped out, relied on gems, etc. to make the 540 def mark pre 3.0.08 patch. HOWEVER, if you research quests, look up rep rewards, etc., you can find a massive number of gear pieces that fit a DK well, provide adequate defense without pure defense gems or giving up socket bonuses. You can't just go to a vendor and buy it or expect the loot to appear when you ding 80, you have to actively get it. Ciderhelm's guide is a good starting point, albeit more for Warrior/Paladin tanks.
    I did put alot of effort, i did run instances over dusins of times to get that one upgrade from that one instance... but i was always at a turn where "ok that has more dodge, more parry, more stamina, more armor... But Buuuuhuuuu it had less Defence, so i can't use it"

    I Did run instances over and over againg to obtain reputation...

    I Grindet and i grindet to get my Warriors BS up so i could get the Mace and Boots... Helm was crap back then...

    So don't even get startet on effort...

    This sigil just eases the means of getting there, ones your in naxx i still will recomend to keep going for that 540 hard cap (without this trinket)... But theres absolutely nothing wrong with going in before that if your capped with this sigil...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYanger View Post
    If you're not ITing every 30 seconds something is horribly wrong with your tanking rotations, and you're probably taking a hell of a lot more damage than the small chance to be crit is causing.
    As some here I prefer not relying on this sigil to be soft capped, but I must react when I see something like that. I'm not the best tank ever, but I really don't hit my IT touch for minutes during Naxx, really.
    Thanks to 3.0.8 I'm able to manage my deases while running and chain pulling with Pest. Now I just IT the first mob, then Pest, burn it down, go to the second mob, then Pest, etc. Deases juggling is not only for 1 pack not refreshing deases, I do it for a whole trash from one boss to an other. My first attempt at that was the miilitary wing, from start to Razz, then from Razz to Noth. This is working quite well as soon as your raid know what you're doing and assuming that you have the ability to pull packs while dealing with the lasts mobs.
    On a boss, this is a different matter of course. To that sigil one thing come to my mind, it's Maex web spray. I usually refresh IT just before so I take less hit while not being healed, but if you just miss that refresh, and are near the end of your buff, this may be really anoying. Other than that, this is a really handy thing you can buy to be soft capped.

  18. #18
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    The answer is no, never, not in a million freakin years.

    The whole point of getting to 540 def is so that there is 0% chance that you will be crit, with 540 def you can't be crit ever(well until next expansion).

    If you use the sigil to reach that def cap, then it is no longer 100% sure thing, you might be able to keep it up most of the time, maybe even 99.99% of the time, but there is still that 0.01%. You might as well only have 539 def, cos there is still a CHANCE that you will be crit. So unless you can prove that having this buff up is a 100% guaranteed thing, that there is no situation now or in future content patches that you might not be able to keep this buff up, then find your 540 def somewhere else.

    So in short:

    540 def = no crits, ever.

    540 def with sigil = you might be crit.

    easy choice...

  19. #19
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    It's really not that big a deal to use this to reach the cap, though personally I'd use it after 535, if I were going to use it towards the cap.

    At 535 there's nothing in any instance or raid that will have a crit chance except for raid bosses. When the effect isn't up, you have a 0.4% chance to be crit by a raid boss. There are currently no silences or stuns on raid bosses that last long enough for that effect to fall off unless you don't hit IT for 15 sec, and the only boss I can think of for that is Anub if you don't kite.

    You could argue that that is an unacceptable vulnerability, but honestly, 0.4% is a VERY small chance for the small window you may have the buff off, if at all.

    I don't think it's such a big deal, personally I don't rely on it. Love having it for the extra avoidance when I want it.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelean View Post
    The answer is no, never, not in a million freakin years.

    The whole point of getting to 540 def is so that there is 0% chance that you will be crit, with 540 def you can't be crit ever(well until next expansion).

    If you use the sigil to reach that def cap, then it is no longer 100% sure thing, you might be able to keep it up most of the time, maybe even 99.99% of the time, but there is still that 0.01%. You might as well only have 539 def, cos there is still a CHANCE that you will be crit. So unless you can prove that having this buff up is a 100% guaranteed thing, that there is no situation now or in future content patches that you might not be able to keep this buff up, then find your 540 def somewhere else.

    So in short:

    540 def = no crits, ever.

    540 def with sigil = you might be crit.

    easy choice...
    Thats about the same logic as "don't use this becouse you might disconnect"... in fact idd say the chances of you disconnecting on a boss, sending the boss on a killing spree throughout the raid is bigger, the chance of that being because of a power shortage in your house is bigger....

    Seriously... Now if we talk about your chance of screwing up... well that might be a whole nother thing... Then the odds are also that you would accedently equip your fishing pole while tanking on a boss and leaving you below 540 becouse you used RotSG to reach the cap...
    Last edited by dotJEM; 02-14-2009 at 10:53 AM.

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