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Thread: Holy Paladin Information

  1. #61
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    Don't take it personal man. I was just making sure since I put it in an edit. Those do get missed sometimes. Nothing offensive meant by it.

  2. #62
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    I keep up a 1.4 speed holy light for battles much longer then patch...

  3. #63
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    While your math looks good, you're forgetting the point that you shouldn't be touching flash of light that much on boss fights as a paladin. If you are hitting you're flash key that often, something is utterly wrong. The HPM that Flash does, does not warrant its use in pretty much any case except maybe healing on through the ice blocks on KT, even then Holy Shock is a better choice (1% extra crit or 6% if you neglect the glyph). Holy Light also has an extra 1% chance to crit (6% if you negate the use of the FoL glyph) which you neglect in your calculations also. You also assume 25 FoL/min which seems to be a pretty high number. If you go with HL spamming you'll never hit close to that number. If you go with a more conservative number like 10 FoL/min, then LoH looks better. The 2 talent points can usually be spared to get down to 51 in Holy for a PVE build. If you're the pally not taking Kings its easy to get down to that spot, and if you are, taking Imp Wisdom is useless at this point if you're buffing Kings. In 3.1 though with Kings moving out the Tree the spec gets a little less interesting as the 5 points in prot don't outweight the crit available in the ret tree.

    With that being said, it works nicely to take Divinity, Seal of Wisdom, Holy Light. The Glyph of Flash of Light screams PVP, not PVE. Using Divinity, SoW, and HL gives you better utility in case you ever need that mana of last resort, which on the longer fights is definitely useful in some cases. SoW + 4 Piece T7/7.5 bonus even further makes it unnecessary for FoL glyph. If FoL spamming is you're main thing, then yes, FoL glyph is useful, but at this point and time, it's efficiency still doesn't compare with that of Holy Light.

  4. #64
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    The point of the guide was to not assume how a paladin should be using their healing spells. Every situation that any paladin heals is going to be different depending on a large number of factors such as what they are fighting, who is in group with them, how they are geared, etc. I specifically refuse to tell a paladin, "OMG, don't touch FoL or HS or whatever spell EVER", because I don't know what each individual paladin is running. This guide is to be taken to be used by anyone from running 5 mans all the way to raiding material. You're doing a disservice to newer people who might be reading this guide in assuming that this guide is only directed to people running 25 man content. It's not, and that's why I'm not advocating Holy Light above Flash of Light, or Holy Shock above Flash of Light, and so on.

    Come 3.1, the glyphing situation will be a bit more situational depending on the paladin because of all the new glyphs being introduced. Until then, in the guide I've already explained, with math, the reasoning why picking up the Divinity Glyph, the Lay on Hands minor, and 2 points into Imp Lay on Hands is not nearly as mana efficient as people tout it to be (which is the only reason I have seen for people even going that route).

  5. #65
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    I've found that I don't use FoL as often as most people are saying, but that's mostly because our raids run with a healer surplus sometimes as we attempt to get healers geared to make 10 mans an easier farm. The only time I've found myself dedicated to using FoL is during the KT fight after an iceblock AND a holy shock crit, because that's a burst healing of 8-10k, which is great for the massive damage you can take if you don't pay attention.

    That being said, I still recognise the value of the Glyph and spamming FoL as a mana regen, but in most situations, your mana regen should be good anyway with all the crits outside of FoL you'd be giving. As a general rule, our raid groups won't take holy pallies with less than 25% holy crit to prevent mana problems.

    On the topic of overheals, I usually end up top due to casting Judgement of Light at every CD, giving me more haste and the tank/melee dps more heal help. It's not unusual for me to be near top heals too for that reason.

  6. #66
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    A paladin shouldn't go oom, but again, you're assuming that a paladin is running certain content. I am not.

    As for you saying that you're using Judgement of Light to boost your healing numbers... you are using it with the idea that there aren't any ret or prot pallies in your raids, right?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by qygibo View Post
    The point of the guide was to not assume how a paladin should be using their healing spells. Every situation that any paladin heals is going to be different depending on a large number of factors such as what they are fighting, who is in group with them, how they are geared, etc. I specifically refuse to tell a paladin, "OMG, don't touch FoL or HS or whatever spell EVER", because I don't know what each individual paladin is running. This guide is to be taken to be used by anyone from running 5 mans all the way to raiding material. You're doing a disservice to newer people who might be reading this guide in assuming that this guide is only directed to people running 25 man content. It's not, and that's why I'm not advocating Holy Light above Flash of Light, or Holy Shock above Flash of Light, and so on.

    Come 3.1, the glyphing situation will be a bit more situational depending on the paladin because of all the new glyphs being introduced. Until then, in the guide I've already explained, with math, the reasoning why picking up the Divinity Glyph, the Lay on Hands minor, and 2 points into Imp Lay on Hands is not nearly as mana efficient as people tout it to be (which is the only reason I have seen for people even going that route).
    Well if you actually show the complete math then and show the counter point of casting FoL without the glyph, the difference in the direct mana regen is also trivial. I think you're doing a greater disservice to the paladin community by touting a strategy that is far less inferior. Blizzard specifically designed paladins to be very simplistic in their healing. As far as they are concerned, if you press 1 all day long you are absolutely playing it right. If you want to play a class where healing selection matters play a priest or a druid. GC has explicitly come out to state this exact point that they like the simplicity of paladin healing and it was designed specifically for this.

    The tendency for a paladin in any situation SHOULD be to cast Holy Light. Not only because it is more efficient but because it is usually necessary. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't touch it but the inclination of your math dictates that when you show the math using a high FoL to Holy Light ratio. Your math is correct for your situation but your situation is far from the generic bell curve you tout you are trying to show newer paladins. Your math inclines them to use FoL which is even more inefficient at the lower gear levels and worse in heroics, and 10 mans. The splash effect of Holy Light increases the fewer healers there are in a given situation.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by qygibo View Post
    A paladin shouldn't go oom, but again, you're assuming that a paladin is running certain content. I am not.

    As for you saying that you're using Judgement of Light to boost your healing numbers... you are using it with the idea that there aren't any ret or prot pallies in your raids, right?

    Right now I would say holy paladins would be better off judging light than wisdom. Wisdom should have 100% up time on a boss and holy cannot guarantee that. Unless raid damage is tremendous the ret and prot pallies should be judging wisdom to keep the mana users from having to pop evo, pots, mana gems, and etc early on. A holy paladin should only need to judge 3 times in a 2 minute period to keep the haste buff on.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuchunga View Post
    Right now I would say holy paladins would be better off judging light than wisdom. Wisdom should have 100% up time on a boss and holy cannot guarantee that. Unless raid damage is tremendous the ret and prot pallies should be judging wisdom to keep the mana users from having to pop evo, pots, mana gems, and etc early on. A holy paladin should only need to judge 3 times in a 2 minute period to keep the haste buff on.
    Actually, no, that is not correct. If you have a ret or a protection pally, you want them to keep up Judgment of Light. The reason why is because Judgement of Light scales with attack power and spell power, whereas Judgement of Wisdom is just a flat percentage amount no matter who is judging it. Here is a comparison between a ret pally and a holy pally, for instance, judging Light (taken from Nixxen from Wowhead):

    Also, considering(as an example) a decent retri paladin has 3.5k AP unbuffed.
    With the Sheath of Light talent he will have 1050 SP.
    The healing mechanics of JoL being [0.10 * SPH + 0.10 * AP](in patch 3.0.8) would mean each heal when procced would heal for [0.10 * 1050 + 0.10 * 3500] = [105 + 350] = 455.

    Now take a holy paladin with 2k SP and 500 AP.
    The formula still being [0.10 * SPH + 0.10 * AP] this would be [0.10 * 2000 + 0.10 * 500] = [200 + 50] = [250].
    That's about half of what a retri judgement would heal for.
    In addition, a holy paladin only need to judge atleast once a minute to keep up his Judgement of the Pure - as opposed to a retri, in just about every case, would have judgement as a part of his normal spell rotation - Making sure to keep the debuff active at any time.

    Even a prot paladin would in most cases have more SP+AP than a holy paladin have SP+AP, but not by much. A decent geared prot paladin would have around 2.5-2.7k AP and around 700SP. The math being [0.10 * SPH + 0.10 * AP] as always: [0.10 * 700 + 0.10 * 2500] = [70 + 250] = 320. Slightly higher than the holy paladin example - but as i said, not by much.
    Also if, as you say, a holy paladin is only going to be judging 3 times every 60 seconds, a judgment lasts on a mob for 20 seconds. Unless the holy paladin misses, there's no reason they can't keep up a Judgment of Wisdom for the time you say they should be judging for anyway.

  10. #70
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    Wisdom is more important for your raid then light. If the holy paladin is judging only to keep up Judgment of the Pure and there is only one other paladin(prot or ret) in the raid the holy paladin should be on light and the other one should be on wisdom to make sure it has 100% up time.

    That being said when I need to judge light I try to judge every 20 seconds when possible though I sometimes miss and sometimes can't afford to blow that many GCDs.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeks View Post
    Wisdom is more important for your raid then light. If the holy paladin is judging only to keep up Judgment of the Pure and there is only one other paladin(prot or ret) in the raid the holy paladin should be on light and the other one should be on wisdom to make sure it has 100% up time.

    That being said when I need to judge light I try to judge every 20 seconds when possible though I sometimes miss and sometimes can't afford to blow that many GCDs.
    Please show me where mana returned is better than keeping people alive outside of patch.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    Please show me where mana returned is better than keeping people alive outside of patch.
    Judgment of light does not keep people alive...its useful healing is negligible on all fights outside of saphiron and even there it is better to have wisdom up for the dps. Ret paladins / hunters / enhance shamans rely on this mana to maintain a basic rotation and it improves caster longevity.

    Meanwhile judgment of light is mostly overheal or just sniping someone else's heal and making them overheal. Judgment of light might produce seemingly large numbers but if you stopped using it no one would ever know as chain heal / coh / hots that are already there pick up the slack. A lot of people would notice if wisdom was missing as it has a large effect of many classes dps.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by qygibo View Post

    Divine Favor: This costs 3% of your base mana, which at level 80 is 131 mana, is an instant cast spell, and when activated, "gives your next Flash of Light, Holy Light, or Holy Shock spell a 100% critical effect chance." This spell has a 2 minute cooldown.


    A lot of Holy paladins will see this and typically want to use it and then Holy Shock so that they can get the instant cast Flash of Light, and this is a valid usage in some situations. However, a usage just as valid is to use Divine Favor and then cast a Holy Light. Why? Because of mana efficiency. Thanks to Illumination that all holy paladins should be talented for, you gain 60% of base mana cost back when one of your healing spells crit. Now, what would you rather have, 60% of 1274 mana that a Holy Light costs, or 60% of 790 mana that a Holy Shock costs? Keeping in mind that this Holy Light will also give additional healing through the splash healing that the Glyph of Holy Light offers, whereas the Holy Shock will have only healed one target for less than the Holy Light healed for. For mana efficiency, Divine Favor should always be used with Holy Light.


    Here's the math behind your comparison (sorry if somebody has already posted this)

    I won't include the mana cost of divine favor because it's constant.

    Holy light= 1274 mana
    1274*(0.6)= 764.4 mana back
    -1274+764.4= -509.6 (this is the NET mana cost of your crit holy light.)

    Holy shock=790 mana
    790*(0.6)= 474 mana back
    -790+474= -316 (this is the NET mana cost of your crit holy shock)

    you're paying an extra 193.6 mana for a LOT more healing (and some aoe healing). Infact, if you add in the cost of the flash of light following your holy shock, your holy light will actually be cheaper.

    The only upside to the holy shock+flash of light combo is, if you don't have time to cast a whole holy light (i.e. your tank is low and you need a quick heal) you might lose your tank.

    But in any other situation where you have time to get both sequences off, assuming you have at least 20% haste (which you should from judgements of the pure alone)
    1) the holy light cast will be faster than (assuming you have at least 1 haste rating) or equal to the 2 GCD's spent getting your holy shock+flash of light off.
    2) it will be cheaper than casting both a holy shock and a flash of light.
    3) it will heal for noticably more (especially with the glyph) than the holy shock+flash of light

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeks View Post
    Judgment of light does not keep people alive...its useful healing is negligible on all fights outside of saphiron and even there it is better to have wisdom up for the dps. Ret paladins / hunters / enhance shamans rely on this mana to maintain a basic rotation and it improves caster longevity.

    Meanwhile judgment of light is mostly overheal or just sniping someone else's heal and making them overheal. Judgment of light might produce seemingly large numbers but if you stopped using it no one would ever know as chain heal / coh / hots that are already there pick up the slack. A lot of people would notice if wisdom was missing as it has a large effect of many classes dps.
    I disagre, by your logic, if you dont have a pally in the raid, you cannot bring a hunter or an enhance shammy because they cannot do a basic rotation without one, i know this to be untrue because i have both a enhance shaman and a hunter. There is only a few fights in the game where light would be purely overheal for the majority of players, and thats fights like patch. Otherwise, why would you not want almost mana free raid healing? The fact that it scales so much better with attack power means that a prot or a ret pally should put it up if you have a second pally. Its really not that hard to judge once every 20 seconds, and even if it falls off for a second or two it will not wipe your raid.

    But please meeks tell me on what fight you have to chain spam your holy light for more than 18 seconds strait on outside of patch.

  15. #75
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    Judgement of Light is more like reactive mitigation than anything else. Melee DPS eats a 3k aura tick, whacks the boss and gets a heal for 500, meaning the aura tick was really only about 2500.

    Judgement of Light will not keep the raid up by itself, but it does make things just a little bit easier on your healers.

    Given a choice between the two, I would choose to keep Judgement of Light up with the exception being fights where the raid is having difficulty beating the enrage timer (possibly due to DPS running out of mana somehow.)

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    I disagre, by your logic, if you dont have a pally in the raid, you cannot bring a hunter or an enhance shammy because they cannot do a basic rotation without one, i know this to be untrue because i have both a enhance shaman and a hunter. There is only a few fights in the game where light would be purely overheal for the majority of players, and thats fights like patch. Otherwise, why would you not want almost mana free raid healing? The fact that it scales so much better with attack power means that a prot or a ret pally should put it up if you have a second pally. Its really not that hard to judge once every 20 seconds, and even if it falls off for a second or two it will not wipe your raid.

    But please meeks tell me on what fight you have to chain spam your holy light for more than 18 seconds strait on outside of patch.


    Hunter dps drops by nearly 1000 without wisdom as it forces them to use aspect of the viper...ret also sees a drop because they cant maintain a full rotation without wisdom.

    Judgment of light is not magical free healing unless you look at things in a vacuum. In reality it snipes a lot of healing that would have been done regardless which means it is really adding 0 healing...just diverting numbers from wild growth to the pally. On a fight like saphiron it will do some useful healing but that is about the extent of it.

    As to when I spam chain light...every single 25 man encounter in the game as there is no compelling reason not to. Sure flash suffices for a lot of them but I'd still rather be casting holy light in case something happens. If I have the mana to maintain a holy light that is nearly GCD capped I will always do so on the off chance that the tank takes a big hit.

    Also there are plenty of fights other then patch where flash means tank will die unless another healer covers you...

    1) 3d sarth
    2) Maly
    3) Razuvious
    4) Grand widow if you just ignore the adds like we do
    5) Thadius for the glyph splash
    6) Every single fight on the ptr so far

    If you are not geared to chain holy light for an extended time you are not going to do well in uld 25 nomal, let alone hard modes.

  17. #77
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    I'm sorry, but how do you know that the intent is for us to be just chain casting Holy Light even? Is that evidence based off of the PTR?

  18. #78
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    I dont know what their intent is. I can tell you that if you are not chain casting holy light your tank is going to die, quick.

    Nearly every boss has moves that hit the tank for nearly 100% of their life. Cast flash and you will have a dead tank. You have to be chaining holy light even when the tank is sitting full because if the tank takes one of the bursts and you are not already casting a holy light things could get ugly.

    Ignis: Melees even with 0 stacks of his damage buff for about 90% of a fully BiS naxx 25 warrior.

    Hodir: Frozen Blows: Physical damage reduced by 70%, but attacks deal 40000 additional Frost damage. In addition, all enemies suffer 4000 Frost damage every 2 sec. Lasts 20 sec. Hodir gains this ability after casting Flash Freeze.

    Iron Council: Fusion Punch An attack infused with energy that inflicts 18850 to 21150 Nature damage and an additional 15000 Nature damage per second. 3 sec cast

    Note: On hard mode he gets a +50% damage buff.

    Mimiron: Plasma Blast: A stream of plasma errupts from the cannon, dealing 30000 Spellfire damage per second for 6 sec. This effect cannot be resisted. 100 yd range, 3 sec cast / Channeled, 7 sec cooldown

    I have not personally tested a few of the other bosses but looking at their ability list seems like more of the same.

    We have the mana to chain big heals and tanks are going to be taking constant large bursts. I do not know why you would ever risk your tanks life to cast flash.

  19. #79
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    Because each heal you throw is situational, especially since if you are in a raid situation there is going to be more than one healer. Sometimes you don't always need to throw out the big heal, it all depends on the circumstances and who you have with you.

    See, the thing I note about all of your arguments is that you don't really seem to bring much of proof or math to it, yet you're quite happy and willing to tear apart others. You say that big heals are imperative to ensure that the tank doesn't die, my view is that each heal you throw depends on a lot of factors such as your group makeup, the mob(s) you are facing, the content you are in, etc. I've read the same ability list that you have, and I've freely admitted when I'm making opinion, and I'm also holding judgment when it comes to what a paladin will "need" to do because content is still being tweaked.

    You're saying that you have to throw the big heals or the tank will die, but you're also disregarding abilities that will help to heal, such as Judgment of Light, because it offers zero effective healing, in your opinion. You are disregarding a great, cheap healing tool on the basis of an opinion. Either a tank needs all the healing that they can get or they don't. You can't say that Judgment of Light isn't needed and then say that you have to throw nothing but your biggest spells because a tank needs that much healing.

  20. #80
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    Ok...name one situation in any encounter, other then instant cast after shock crit, where there is a reason to cast flash. There isn't any. Sure a holy light might be massive overheal most of the time but who cares? If you can make it through the fight with your mana while casting nothing but holy light instead of flash then casting anything other then holy light becomes a liability because on the off chance the tank needs a large heal you will fail.

    I've tested nearly every fight that went on the US ptr including the hard modes and I can tell you that I would never invite a holy paladin there that considered flash as a useful tool. That line of thinking is a liability in there especially since none of the encounters went beyond my mana pool's ability to spam holy light.

    And I never said JoL adds no healing. I said it adds very little healing, much less then meters give it credit. All I said is that if you have 2 paladins Wisdom is the better choice for your raid and if you have 1 ret pally and 1 holy paly the ret should cast wisdom to ensure 100% uptime. When we are running 1 ret pally I always judge light every 20 seconds assuming I can spare the GCD.

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