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Thread: Holy Paladin Information

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    And please tell me why you believe 3% personal crit is better for the raid than 1215 Stamina, 456 Int, 372 str, 181 spirit, 327 agi for a 10 man raid, or 2.5 times that for a 25 man raid? Yes for your own healing performance picking up kings currently puts you slightly below in healing, but the gains to the rest of the raid by far exceed that. And note currently in 3.1 kings is replaced by a tallent that increases healing by 5%. So the points STILL would be better spent in prot teir 1 than getting the extra 3% crit in ret.
    Not disputing the merits of Kings, just to whom should spec for it. 3% crit is better than the pvp talents that ret gives up to spec for kings. I would argue that the 3% crit is better than what a prot pally would give up for kings too.

    IMO, a 5% increase in healing is better than a 3% increase in crit. So when 3.1 goes live, I will certainly pick it up.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    Now please direct your attention to your previous post.



    Now lets go to the dictionary



    Your argument that its better for a ret or a prot pally to spend the points is with the assumption that one of those two classes will be in every group you are in.

    Say your the only pally in the raid, who should spec for kings? You should... Or say its you and another holy pally, One of you needs to spec for kings. Its that simple

    And this isnt meant to be an attack on you, but instead please show me your proof, i have my numbers of why kings is a worthwhile raid buff, please show me your numbers that show 3% more crit is a buff of that magnitude. Thats what i am asking from those who dismiss kings.


    ROFL,

    Say your the only pally in the raid, who should spec for kings? You should... Or say its you and another holy pally, One of you needs to spec for kings. Its that simple

    Lizana, that's alot of assumptions!! But out of spite to your rhetorical question, I'd respec retribution and buff the raid with kings and improved might for myself.

    Seriously though, can we agree to disagree? Read my previous post. All of us are guilty of making assumptions. Have a pleasant weekend.

  3. #23
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    I've had a lot of disagreements with Lizana in the past, but I'm going to back him up on this one. Unless you are in a situation where you are guaranteed to have Kings whenever you do something it is a safe bet that you should have specced into Kings.

    Let's pretend you have a Holy pally AND a Ret Pally in your raid. I think that is reasonable. You've also got a number of melee/physical dps classes in your raid (because you're raiding) and they want the Ret pally's Imp Might buff, including the Ret pally. Now they have to take the untalented version of BoMight because the Holy pally was worried about his crit rating. Good job, you just buffed your healing by a small amount that won't be noticed in any real sense AND you nerfed the dps in a very real sense.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    I've had a lot of disagreements with Lizana in the past, but I'm going to back him up on this one. Unless you are in a situation where you are guaranteed to have Kings whenever you do something it is a safe bet that you should have specced into Kings.

    Let's pretend you have a Holy pally AND a Ret Pally in your raid. I think that is reasonable. You've also got a number of melee/physical dps classes in your raid (because you're raiding) and they want the Ret pally's Imp Might buff, including the Ret pally. Now they have to take the untalented version of BoMight because the Holy pally was worried about his crit rating. Good job, you just buffed your healing by a small amount that won't be noticed in any real sense AND you nerfed the dps in a very real sense.
    I guess I'm just unable to relate to their guild's trials and tribulations since my guild doesn't have their problems.

    Let me make a quick point. There are seven paladins in my guild covering all three specs. Of the seven, three of us use all three specs. When we raid, we usually bring four(at least two ret,holy,prot) with us. Yes we have the luxury of covering all paladins buffs and auras, only because we don't mind filling any role in the raid.

    When I finally looked up Lizana's armory and consequently his/her guild, I'd just laughed. Everything in the previous posts made perfect sense. They have eight level eighty paladins in their guild with four being prot and four being holy. Apparently, it never occurred to them to have one of their eight respec retribution. And they tried to push a less than optimal spec off because of it. Nevermind the fact that a ret paladins provides the following: three percent crit, haste and damage to raid, replenishment, kings and blessing of might, and 100% JOW uptime.

    In the end, it's your monthly fee so spec and do what you want with your toon. But I'll say this again, I don't think it's good advice telling a holy paladin to spec for kings, even in Lizana's guild. Just have a one of them respec and get the right talents. To me that makes more sense Ninja.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    Okay, now you want to try to make this a personal attack on myself and my casual guild. Good luck there, not going to take the bait. Yes my guild is a casual raid guild that doesn't force spec changes. None of our current pallies want to raid as a ret pally so we dont make them. And as i am now saying for i think its the 5th time now, this guide is clearly not meant for a hard core raid pally. The puropse of this info is pretty clear, its meant for new pallies that are wanting to learn more about healing. The only point in this entire thread i have even said anything about my guild and the palies in my guild is when i was using one of their stats for my argument to show kings is a worthwhile raid buff, even at the cost of 3% personal crit.

    Now for your note about having my guidies respec so they can provide the following - and remember these are your words not mine Now the bold text is my emphasis of your argument. Please tell me how many of these 7 pallies you bring to a 10 man raid? Remember the game isnt just 25 man raid content, and i wish elitist/snobbish people would stop assuming just because some one isnt doing 25 man s3d ever week that your opinion doesn't matter. My guild focuses on 10 man content, and we pug the 25 man stuff out. And you know what we have a blast doing it, but sometimes that means we only have 1 or possibly 2 pallies in the raid, dont always have a chance to get a ret pally in. Your offering advice based on your guild and how your guild does something, both qygibo and myself are offering advice that isnt based on our own guild, but instead from a lot of other guilds as well. Now i am sure if you go and ask the top 3 guilds on your server do they have a ret pally 100% in their 25 mans they would say yes, but at no point in any of the posts has the information been directed just at people doing 25 man raids or even raids at all. This is general information meant to help some one new to the pally class get a firm grasp of the class to improve themselves.

    Now please stop trying to make personal arguments about me or my guild.

    Nah, no one is making any personal attacks against you or your guild. There is no drama between us, please stop yelling fire in a crowded theater.

    I first chimed in to this thread after reading all the previous posts. Here we have posters commenting on who specs into kings, commonly known information that isn't exclusive to the top 3 guilds on any server. You getting defensive because they did not share your point of view, which is why I said in my first post "Lizana, you sound angry."

    My guild is a casual, not hardcore guild. We have to pug 25 man occasionally but we started off like everyone else. We would bring 2-3 paladins for a ten man, they're pretty versatile.

    The puropse of this info is pretty clear, its meant for new pallies that are wanting to learn more about healing.

    Agreed. I don't agree on holy paladins speccing into kings, but you seem satisfied with it and uptight at the same time when no one agrees with it.

    Your offering advice based on your guild and how your guild does something, both qygibo and myself are offering advice that isnt based on our own guild, but instead from a lot of other guilds as well.

    I don't agree with this. I'm inclined to believe that the advice you're giving is based off your own guild's makeup, otherwise you would be open to another paladin speccing into Kings. To be fair though, I'm sure that there are plenty of guilds that resemble yours and the same could be said of mine.

    In summary:
    We cannot agree on who is to spec into kings, have been going back and forth for several hours now, and that IMO is the focus of our arguments. Thank god 3.1 will bring closure to this. I'm not personally attacking you or your guild. In the end, I don't particularly care how you or anyone else play their toon. They can research and decide for themselves.

  6. #26
    Too many people here are comparing apples to oranges and getting all high-strung about it. Please use what advice works for you, discard the rest and don't worry so much about who's right and who's wrong. Keep things civil and avoid forcing moderators to dispense warnings and bans.

    Lastly, here's a little bit of wisdom you can refer to next time you feel the urge to get into a debate.

    Thanks.
    Armstrong
    <Elysium>
    Burning Legion US

  7. #27
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    anyone who tries to say that 5% healing is better than 3% crit is <wrong>.

    Its the exact same reasoning behind why the Seal of Wisdom glyph is better than the Seal of Light glyph. Paladins spend so much of their healing power in overhealing, that 5% more healing is just going to be spent on overheals, not effective heals.

    In addition, bonus % of healing is solely a healing output stat, whereas 3% crit is both an increase to your healing output AND to your mana longevity, not to mention the fact that the 3% crit spec allows you to pick up either Pursuit of Justice or Imp BoM, both of which are decent.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 03-03-2009 at 04:58 PM.

  8. #28
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    The thing is that 5% increased healing may well be more valuable when it comes time for raiding Ulduar. Have you read up on any of the bosses yet to see the type of damage that they're capable of putting out? I'm getting the feeling based off of that that we're going to need to be throwing out some bigger heals in order to compensate for the increased damage that's being thrown around.

    In 3.1, gone will be the days when paladins will throw out nothing but big heals because they have infinite mana anyway. 5% more healing actually makes your healing more health per mana efficient, unlike crit, which at best extends out your mana pool. Having more healing for the same amount of mana means that you don't need to throw out as many heals in the first place.

  9. #29
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    Well realistically, in most cases, we aren't going to toss out less heals because we heal for 5% more on the ones we got. We are gonna toss out heals as soon as the tank takes damage and/or before hand, depending on your healing style. That's not to say I disagree with your stance on the benefit of 5% healing, as I do find merit in it, but I also tend to lean on the side of the 3% crit in this case. Still, perhaps some math should be done to see what the actual increase would be for the 3% crit (in throughput and mana regen) so we could make a better comparison and maybe a better decision.

  10. #30
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    So 5% healing would boost your HL heal from around 9504 to about 9980 based on the example.

    The 5% healing, while providing theoretical mana savings, won't really provide practical ones. 480 extra healing isn't gonna make you not use a holy light. So you will be casting the same amount of holy lights no matter if you have the 5% extra healing or not. It does have the benefit of a practical healing increase that is sustainable though, which is a nice feature.

    On the flip side 3% crit won't provide practical healing increases given that when the crit occurs is a random event (aside from DF). It will however provide you with a practical mana savings over time.

    So it comes down to whether you want the extra mana savings or the extra healing. In my current gear, I would go with the mana savings, so I would go 3% crit. If I could find the points for the 5% healing as well, I would get that, but I really need practical mana regen more than the extra +healing at the moment.

  11. #31
    I am in no way a "pro", hell I haven't been healing "that" long as a pali either. My guild is pretty casual (everything but Sarth 3d clear) but we have some very consistant members. Both myself and the other holy pali use the 53/0/18 build and we normally have 1-2 ret pali's and 1 prot pali per raid.

    I personally like BoKings a lot, it's a great buff no doubt. It's deffinitely worth taking IF you are unsure if someone else is bringing it to the raid. If I take BoWisdom, HolyPali2 takes BoMight, that leaves Kings up to 1-3 other people. With that being said, there isn't a reason to get at each other's throats about what is a better spec. It depends on the guild and the members and specs.

    I haven't looked at 3.1 stuff that much, maybe I'd pick up the kings replacement in the prot tree, I roll around 45% crit right now so losing a few wouldn't hurt that much. I'm unsure about how much 5% more healing would really affect me though. Like Jere said, I'd be more interested in the mana regen then the extra healing, especially given the overheal that is put out already. I've got some play points anyway so maybe I could work em in but overall, I think I'm with what Jere said.

  12. #32
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    See my updated post above for the math against the "mana saving"

  13. #33
    The bonus math is suggesting that you would need to heal less because of a 5% bonus to healing. Am I going to cast HL 5% less times? Not likely. My main question would be, what % of my heals are causing overheal. If I'm overhealing with 90% of my heals (overhealing in the sense that a 9.5k HL heals for 8k with 1.5k overheal) then how is that 5% spell power going to help me?

    Like was said earlier there appears to be some heavy hitters in Ulduar, I'm all for trying different things. Math based numbers and actual trials are once again two different things. I'd like to see some WWS or something where a pali is NOT going over 50% overheal and see what kind of heals they are doing. On a normal raid, not one with either 10 healers or 3. I'd be willing to bet on boss X that requires moderate raid/tank healing there will be enough overheal that 5% will not matter in the slightest.

    Moreover, with the math about how it would add up on gemming in such.

    One last thing to keep in mind, if we take the extra healing you get from the 5% healing and convert it to and equivalent spell power it would convert to 286 spell power or in terms of blue level gems, over 15 red spell power gems. Were as if we were to gem for 3% crit from blue level gems it would only take 9 gem for the same increase.
    Using your formula for HL spell power bonus, you're actually looking at a 255.6 spell power increase not 286. The healing difference is 475.2/1.12 (holy light talent) = a bonus of 424.28 healing from spell power which is divided by the 1.66 to make 255.6. Which is 13.45 gems (14 rounding).

    I'm just really not convinced that 5% bonus healing is as effective as you say it is. Looks fine on paper but what's it like in practice will be the question. Like everyone I'm gonna do what works best for me and my guild. With the content available now, the players, and numbers in my guild, I just don't see where 5% healing is gonna be a "must take" for 5 talent points. That may change in Ulduar, no doubt, but I can't ever see it causing people to heal less like you are implying.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealclubber View Post
    The bonus math is suggesting that you would need to heal less because of a 5% bonus to healing. Am I going to cast HL 5% less times? Not likely. My main question would be, what % of my heals are causing overheal. If I'm overhealing with 90% of my heals (overhealing in the sense that a 9.5k HL heals for 8k with 1.5k overheal) then how is that 5% spell power going to help me?

    Like was said earlier there appears to be some heavy hitters in Ulduar, I'm all for trying different things. Math based numbers and actual trials are once again two different things. I'd like to see some WWS or something where a pali is NOT going over 50% overheal and see what kind of heals they are doing. On a normal raid, not one with either 10 healers or 3. I'd be willing to bet on boss X that requires moderate raid/tank healing there will be enough overheal that 5% will not matter in the slightest.
    This post is exactly on spot in my opinion. You won't be healing less to accommodate the extra 5% healing. This simply will not happen in practical situations. Similarly, you aren't gonna rely on the 3% crit to give you that crit heal you need at that crucial moment.

    However, you will possibly rely on that 5% to give you that small extra edge until the next heal lands, because it is always there. You will similarly rely on the 3% crit to provide you some mana gains, because they will be there over the healing time spent. It simply becomes a choice of whether you really need the extra 5% healing (like this poster said, you have to consider average overhealing as well) or not and which is better for you versus the 3% crit.

    This is a pretty interesting discussion overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana
    One last thing to keep in mind, if we take the extra healing you get from the 5% healing and convert it to and equivalent spell power it would convert to 286 spell power or in terms of blue level gems, over 15 red spell power gems. Were as if we were to gem for 3% crit from blue level gems it would only take 9 gem for the same increase.
    This is a very good point to consider in terms of gearing. Of course it really depends on how you are gemming (I.E. do you lose gemming bonuses or other stats switching your gems to accommodate), but this is good info to consider.

  15. #35
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    The % of overheal honestly doesn't matter as long as your not going OOM. Now if pallies would get out of the mindset of just spamming heals you could easily control your overhealing to reasonable amounts. If the target needs 6k of heals, why throw a holy light and have at least 3k overhealing, why not throw a couple of flashes instead, or a flash and holy shock. The fact that your spamming heals and overhealing for 70-80% of your heals is the reason your needing more mana regen. Heal based on the damage taken and the expected future damage.

    And as far as the regen from crit vs more healing. Keep in mind that your tradeing a 100% increase in your healing power to a small chance to increase mana regen. And yes 3% is a small increase when you consider its a 100% scale. Also note, if your having a lot of overheal in the first place, you could probably trade out some of your crit for other regen stats like Int or for mp5. Keep in mind that your crit heals overheal just like an extra amount of healing would.

    And please if your going to argue, please show math to suport your claim, so far the only responses are boiled down to "I dont think i will need it", Please show how the crit will befit more than a healing increase. Keep in mind were going to be faceing bosses that can throw out 40k damage bursts and tanks that will be crittable for some of the boss fights. Please tell me how you belive your mana restored will allow you to heal that 40k faster and more efficiently than a healer with 5% more healing.

  16. #36
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    You can't mathematically compare the benefits of mana regen to increased healing. One is used more for "at the moment healing" (increased healing) and one is used for "over time healing" (mana regen). Trying to convert them takes more than math, it takes practical experience (for example, you cannot convert the 5% healing to mana regen. It simply does not work in practice. Sounds good on paper, but you can't really do that conversion). They offer two different things. Considering neither option actually provides the other in a practical way, it will be up to choice. You either want the mana regen (crit) or the reliable increased healing (5% heals).

    Also, your overheal does matter. Some of that 5% will be absorbed in your overheal. If you have any overheal at all, that will be true. You don't need math to show that.

    EDIT: Though if you want math on the overheal comment:
    Before 5% healing: Lizana heals Jere for 7600 (2400) overheal
    After 5% healing: Lizana heals Jere for 7600 (2900) overheal

    Taking the 5% healing is going to increase your healing, but if you have any amount of overheal, it won't increase your effective healing by 5%, it will be less than that. It will only increase your effective heals that don't fill up the tank's health by 5%, the other ones will absorb it into overheal.

    Is what we are referring to.
    Last edited by jere; 03-04-2009 at 06:00 PM.

  17. #37
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    And my point is, if your are overhealing that much you need to change the way you are healing. If every heal you land is an overheal, your throwing the wrong spells or your healing at the wrong time. A players lack of skill and ability to play their char should not factor into a talent build

  18. #38
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    I am willing to bet the average player has more than 0% overheal. Even the best of players have overheal. It isn't about "that much" overheal. It's a simple mathematical fact that you will dilute your 5% healing if you have overheal, which you will. No amount of skill will reduce your overheal to 0. High overheal can be mitigated by skill for sure, but not all of it. There is some portion that will occur no matter how good you are. It just how it is. You can't handwave it like it isn't there and say it doesn't matter and then complain about people not providing math. Still, even in the presence or absence of it, it doesn't matter, because again you can't really mathematically compare mana regen to healing as they focus on two different aspects of healing in practice, at least in those small amounts. This becomes a choice for the player. There is no mathematical fact that 3% crit is worse than 5% healing or vice versa. It's gonna come down to practical use, not mathematical comparison. It boils down to choice at that point.

    The gemming blurb you presented however is a very good argument in favor of 5%. I think that should be explored and would further solidify your stance probably.

  19. #39
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    I don't know where exactly the 5% healing came in, but any holy paladin that wants 3% crit over 5% healing is eighter at a very early gearing level (i.e. needs the crit for mana regen to even be able to heal) or doing it wrong. There is two reasons for this.

    1st crit is an RNG factor, you have to assume the worst and see if you can handle that, and 3% crit gives you nothing in the worst case (unless it pushes you to 100% crit). This also means that unless content is trivial at your raids gearlevel you can't wait until a crit would not overheal before you let it land in case it's will not crit. With overhealing in mind I doubt anyone would argue against that the heals that overheal the most is crits, I know it is for me.

    2nd 5% healing is (the way I read 5% healing) scaling, so it improves all your healing with 5% now and in the future.
    Last edited by hvidgaard; 03-07-2009 at 06:15 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    The % of overheal honestly doesn't matter as long as your not going OOM. Now if pallies would get out of the mindset of just spamming heals you could easily control your overhealing to reasonable amounts. If the target needs 6k of heals, why throw a holy light and have at least 3k overhealing, why not throw a couple of flashes instead, or a flash and holy shock. The fact that your spamming heals and overhealing for 70-80% of your heals is the reason your needing more mana regen. Heal based on the damage taken and the expected future damage.

    And as far as the regen from crit vs more healing. Keep in mind that your tradeing a 100% increase in your healing power to a small chance to increase mana regen. And yes 3% is a small increase when you consider its a 100% scale. Also note, if your having a lot of overheal in the first place, you could probably trade out some of your crit for other regen stats like Int or for mp5. Keep in mind that your crit heals overheal just like an extra amount of healing would.

    And please if your going to argue, please show math to suport your claim, so far the only responses are boiled down to "I dont think i will need it", Please show how the crit will befit more than a healing increase. Keep in mind were going to be faceing bosses that can throw out 40k damage bursts and tanks that will be crittable for some of the boss fights. Please tell me how you belive your mana restored will allow you to heal that 40k faster and more efficiently than a healer with 5% more healing.
    For a start! pallys are designed around spam healing... why do you think the main source of mana regen is done WHILE healing ... ie critting, yes current state allows for spamming HL but its originally designed around FoL.

    With that damage you state incomming you would NOT be the solo healer as even with +20% healing you would not be able to heal it, and if you could not for any length of time lol

    and pray tell me what the point of that +5% if your going before the end of a fight .... you know the main way pally regen mana right ... yes thats it through critting, not MP5, and via int only as it adds to crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    And my point is, if your are overhealing that much you need to change the way you are healing. If every heal you land is an overheal, your throwing the wrong spells or your healing at the wrong time. A players lack of skill and ability to play their char should not factor into a talent build

    You point is null and invalid, as the current state of pally healing means rather more overhealing than the other classes especially if using BoL.

    Spam healing in a lot of boss fights, and there will be a lot of Overheal done because of it, you cannot always do reactive healing like your saying, it has to be proactive which inherantly leads to over healing its unavoidable, you can minimise it but it will always be there

    Yes you can do reactive healing, but lets face it, you wait till the target needs healing then 2 things happen:

    1: a: it get healed by another healer and or b: you heal is to slow or delayed and the target snuffs it.

    2: you heal regardless and take the overhealing...


    and what you say is so hyprocritical to be believeable in the previous post you make you state the % of overhealing amount doesn't matter then you now say if your overhealing your doing something wrong ...

    Please at least try to be consistant lol

    The more I read your posts the more I feel its down to how you see it rather than any hard fact.

    And I do wonder at your grasp of how are pally's meant to heal. they not reactive healers
    Last edited by Shakari; 03-16-2009 at 12:54 AM.

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