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Thread: Holy Paladin Information

  1. #81
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    So based on your own personal experiences then you say that a paladin needs to be casting nothing but Holy Lights or in your eyes they fail. You see, the thing is that that's your way of healing, and you're judging how all paladins should heal based on your own personal experience. I am not judging a paladin's healing experience based off of what I've done, because I don't know what that particular holy paladin is doing content wise, who they are running with, what their group makeup is, etc.

    In fact, I've seen plenty of holy paladins say that in groups where they take 4 or 5 healers into H Naxx groups that even on Patchwerk fights they are bored out of their mind usually and throw up FoLs because they don't see the point in just mindlessly spamming HL. If Blizzard had wanted us to be one button healing spammers they would have just given us one button that said "Holy Light, spam here!" and not given us a single other healing spell. We're simplistic healers, but we're not meant to be one button spamming healers. There's more thought a holy pally should put into healing than that.

    If you have one ret pally in the group and one holy pally, the numbers have been posted as to why the ret pally benefits the group more by throwing up JoL than in having a holy pally throw it up. But I'm sure if you're playing strictly a numbers game, then it's a great epeen to have JoL show up as more healing that a holy pally has done. But as a healer, you're not there for your own ego, you're there for the entire group, and if the group is going to get more healing from another paladin's JoL, it's in the group's best interest to make sure they get all the healing that they can get. There's little reason, if you have a holy pally and a non holy pally in your raid group, that a holy pally can't keep up JoW, even considering that due to our lack of hit gear we'll sometimes end up missing a judgment on occasion.
    Last edited by qygibo; 04-03-2009 at 02:52 PM.

  2. #82
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    You can not judge joke fights as the basis for healing. When I "heal" a heroic I dps and I can keep people alive with sacred shield and instant flash of light from IoL. So obviously this means a good paladin only needs sacred shield and a chance at a flash every 6 seconds?

    When I talk about how a paladin should be healing I am referring to how they should be healing in a fight that is actually straining the group. I happen to take this heal style and use it on all 25 man encounters because I see no reason to get complacent.

    And no numbers have been posted to show that ret helps the raid more doing light. All you showed was that a ret doing JoL was stronger then a holy doing JoL which is true. No where did you show numbers comparing wisdom to light and you can't because you can't quantify the differences in what they do.

    The real test is this...if you have 1 paladin in your raid what will people notice the least? I can tell you that is JoW is not up dps starts complaining in 5 seconds and there are people screaming on vent for it. If I was assigned JoL I could never use it and the only person that would notice is me because I would not have my haste buff. The healing is nice to have when you have 2 paladins but it really does not do that much. Pretty much the only fight where JoL is doing constant meaningful healing is saphiron.

  3. #83
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    There are no numbers that are going to support whether a holy or a ret or a prot pally should be judging Wisdom. Why? Because no matter what paladin judges it, it returns a constant amount of mana back to whoever hits the target. However, it has been shown that because JoL scales with AP and with SP, that whoever has the highest of the two combined should be using JoL.

    You say that the group is most likely to scream if there isn't a JoW up... that sounds more like your group personally screams to have JoW up rather than it being something that's universal all around. Plus why is your group so reliant on having Judgment of Wisdom up that they apparently would have huge mana issues without it?

    Now, you say that a paladin NEEDS to be using huge heals on fights that strain the group. I'm not making a judgment as to what a paladin healer will consider a strainful fight, thus I'm not going to judge what type of heals they'll need on a given encounter. That's all what you're doing there. If you want to make preconceptions about a particular holy paladin for whoever might be reading, then please, go update your particular guide that you started up, quit trying to do a disservice to paladins reading this by making assumptions for them as to what they need to do in a given situation regarding what sort of heals they MUST throw out to be considered a good paladin healer.

  4. #84
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    Trying doing a 6 min maly kill without wisdom or a 3drake sarth with several hunters/ret pallies. From your achiements you do not seem to have done maly/3d/kt or even 3min patch. Nothing wrong with that however for those that want to progress you need to approach encounters differently. JoW is a difference maker for hunters as it allows them to make it through encounters without need to use aspect of viper resulting in a lot more dps...also allows ret to use consecrate which make a nice difference as well.

    Your method is fine for nax but if you are going for hard modes or achievements or ulduar when it comes out people that take your advice are going to struggle.

    The methods I have laid out are for those looking to squeeze the most out of their paladins and is intended for serious raiding.

  5. #85
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    A serious raiding paladin is most likely not going to need a guide that spells out abilities that most paladins take for granted, such as Cleanse or the basics of what Holy Light or Holy Shock does. Now, if you do want to make something separate for those paladins that are at the point of Sarth 3D or Malygos in 6 mins or less, then please, feel free to do so in your own guide that you haven't updated in quite some time.

    I have said TIME AND TIME again that I am not making assumptions as to what a paladin is running content wise, or who is in their group, or etc. You're coming in here and basically trying to say that because you've done something X way, that it's something that paladins should be doing, because you're raiding top content, you know best! Guess what? 25 man raiding is not the end all be all of raiding, and not every paladin plays for that, and that's ok. Please, if you would like to epeen about how you are somehow better than me, you made the starts of a guide a while back and never seemed to bother to go back to that. Why not start there instead of making statements that you rarely, if ever, seem to follow with actual math or evidence and tearing apart the arguements of people who do seem to provide all of that?

  6. #86
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    And I never said JoL adds no healing. I said it adds very little healing, much less then meters give it credit.
    Actualy you did, heres where.

    Judgment of light is not magical free healing unless you look at things in a vacuum. In reality it snipes a lot of healing that would have been done regardless which means it is really adding 0 healing

    Also for a few of the rest of your posts

    Trying doing a 6 min maly kill without wisdom or a 3drake sarth with several hunters/ret pallies
    If your doing it with several ret pallies, they can do both therefore you dont have to judge, same as s3d. So your argument is when theres multiple ret pallies they should all judge wisdom? Otherwise i fail to grasp that logic.

    The real test is this...if you have 1 paladin in your raid what will people notice the least? I can tell you that is JoW is not up dps starts complaining in 5 seconds and there are people screaming on vent for it. If I was assigned JoL I could never use it and the only person that would notice is me because I would not have my haste buff. The healing is nice to have when you have 2 paladins but it really does not do that much. Pretty much the only fight where JoL is doing constant meaningful healing is saphiron.
    By this logic, if you don't have a pally in the raid you might as well not go? Keep in mind neither light or wisdom judged on a mob is seen as a necessary buff/debuff for raiding. Now true if you bring no other sources of replenishment it can hurt dps, but not to the degree your trying to make it out to be. Having some one die hurts dps a lot more than a hunter swiching to viper for 15 seconds.

    And Flash of light is still a very useful tool. Keep in mind, its a tool, like any other tool has a time and a place for its use. Blizzard clearly has a problem with the pallies ability to chain cast holy light though a whole boss fight. Keep in mind they keep removing holy pally mana regen because of it. But heaven forbid you have to use more than one button. A smart pally uses all the abilities they have to keep the target alive. You would be surprised what a Shield and a flash of light can do for a dpser if the crap hits the fan. I mean why would a soldier ever need a knife if they carry a gun...

    Oh yeah thats right because its about using the right tool for the right job. After reading though all of Q's posts here i dont see once her saying you should spam flash of light on the tank instead of holy light for a 25 man hard mode fight in content not currently available. In fact the only person i see making comments like that are you and thats what your trying to argue against.

    Try to think back to what you were like when you first dinged to the level cap on your first toon. You knew the basics, you probably just needed help getting organized and started off. That is clearly what this guide was meant for, not a pally about to do s3d. Its great you have those achievements, but that just means the post was not meant for you. How many pallies in greens and starting blues do you think have the mana pool to chain cast holy light for 2 minutes? And by the same token how many of the heroic bosses 2 shot a semi geared tank? I think what would be best is for you like Qygibo suggested is to start up your own "Serious Raiding Pally Guide" and impart your wisdom on those who need it, but in a post meant for starting pallies, "Serious Raiding" tips dont have much of a place.

  7. #87
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    Can you give us a new spec for pallys after 3.1

    Just wondering since kings will now be learned where should the extra talent points go and are you going to remake your talent trees so that we can see what may be best?

  8. #88
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    Well a lot of the talents got moved around/changed, so it isn't just about the change to BoK.

    I am personally going with something like:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    But there is a lot of room for play in there. If you favor Divinity more, you can move more points into it, or if you want aura mastery, you can move a point into that.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxamas View Post
    Just wondering since kings will now be learned where should the extra talent points go and are you going to remake your talent trees so that we can see what may be best?
    Actually, the two talent specs that I have up remain relatively unchanged, number of points wise... there's still 51/5/15 or 51/0/20.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    An updated talent tree, the one above is for if you are going 51/5/15 for Divinity. The 2 points in Improved Judgments could also go into Imp Blessing of MIght if you wish.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    An updated talent tree without Divinity. The last 2 points are for use as you see fit.

    I'm aware that there were several, several changes made to paladins in 3.1, but I'm not really going to update too much more on this site, reason being is that given the poor experience I've had in here with people wanting to shoot down the holy paladin information without actually doing any of their own work, I'm not going to go through that again... this information is available on another site that will receive more regular updates, if there are requests made I'll update the one on this site as people wish.

  10. #90
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    Just to toss out my own opinions on pally mechanics.

    In a raid 10/25 if there is a single ret pally, he will be the one using JoW, the reason being he will have a 100% uptime. It's part of his rotation. In endurance fights, or fights where speed is key to winning and incoming dmg is mostly done to the tank, the 100% uptime allows for the casters/ranged to have a constant return of mana...overall allowing them to cycle their spells/attacks without focusing on their mana regen, which equals more damage. JoL, whereas is nice and does more healing when applied by a ret pally, is useless in fights where the raid isn't taking constant damage, it all goes directly to your overheal. When I heal I basically keep JoL up as often as I can, reguardless of who else is judging it, not for the heals, but for the haste bonus, and to fill in any gaps of downtime. Still in general I can't have a 100% uptime on any judgement, I have to move, fulfill other roles, ect...JoW is more useful overall to a raid to always have up. This point is pretty moot though if you have 2+ ret pallys, or a pally tank, seeing as how when a pally tank keeps up JoL it helps add to his overall threat. In the end, keep it up if you want, it's not hurting anyone, and can definately help healing...but it's not 100% necessary for successful pally healing.

    As far as the whole FoL vs HL spam, a HL pally spammer is intent more on seeing their name at the top of a healing meter than effective healing. They will smash the healing chart...and destroy the overhealing. Also by standing stationary and spamming HL your movement reaction time is lower, so in fights that require alot of movement, you'll notice they tend to die a bit more. Effective healing would be to cycle your CD's along with your holy shock and FoL, weaving in sacred shield, beacon, ect. Personally I find it more effective to use beacon on my target, holy shock (using divine favor is helpful for loading up your next heal), if it crits and there isn't anyone below 50% I hit a person within 40 yards of my target with an instant FoL, together that's roughly 13k-14k of healing, split between 2 targets...with the full amount hitting my main target. All in under 1 second. Combined that equals over 20k healing in 1 second...and a HL spamming pally would still have a half second of casting to hit his 1 target...which I most likely healed anyway, giving him 100% overheal. Grats you've just wasted 1200 mana! Now if a target had been under 50%, I had my 15% haste up and enough gear haste to help, I would use a HL, as long as it wasn't neglecting another person who I could have saved using the previous method. I notice more raid deaths occur around a holy light spamming pally as well, seeing as how raid healing comes slower.

    Pallys who think there's a way to spam heal in a real raid need to learn how to prioritize their healing for the most effective hps, spread across the most targets, with a minimum of overhealing.

    Just my 2 cents.

    edited: because like a retard I kept refering to JoL as FoL.
    Last edited by patrix; 04-17-2009 at 03:09 PM.

  11. #91
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    I'll end up saying this, because I'm tired of debating it, but here's the gist of it: If you as a holy pally are judging light when there is a ret or a prot pally, you're just trying to boost your own healing numbers on the healing meter... thanks for not caring about the group and putting your own numbers above what the group really needs, which is someone with a lot of ap and sp to judge light, and you to stick with wisdom, which is easy to keep up if you use something like Grid + Clique or Healbot.

    2nd: I don't dictate what heals to use when because I'm not assuming what you are running or who you are running it with, again. Things like this are why this thread won't get updated anymore, because people don't seem to care enough about reading.

  12. #92
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    Yep, JoL should be left to either prot or ret. They produce better mileage out of it than holy.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by qygibo View Post
    I'll end up saying this, because I'm tired of debating it, but here's the gist of it: If you as a holy pally are judging light when there is a ret or a prot pally, you're just trying to boost your own healing numbers on the healing meter... thanks for not caring about the group and putting your own numbers above what the group really needs, which is someone with a lot of ap and sp to judge light, and you to stick with wisdom, which is easy to keep up if you use something like Grid + Clique or Healbot.

    2nd: I don't dictate what heals to use when because I'm not assuming what you are running or who you are running it with, again. Things like this are why this thread won't get updated anymore, because people don't seem to care enough about reading.
    Most pallys have been agreeing with you mr. angryface. Looks like you don't want to read ;p

  14. #94
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    This is a great help as I have a Holy Pali alt which I use alot and fill in healing when needed, its alot to get used to going from a pew pew hunter in a raid to mana management and raid survival, this brought alot of helpful information. Thanks!!

  15. #95
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    Focus Magic

    Hmmm You Pally healerz are very powerful with all your tricks to crit. You help me as a mage very much! Anytime there's a Holy Pally in my raid group I usually buff them with Focus Magic giving them a 3% more critical chance. Usually, when we are in a boss fight my proc from there crits is about 95% always buffed up on me as long as they are casting heals. Since you are sending critical heals quite often, I also get a 3% crit increase which makes Arcane mages hit even harder!!! <3 <3
    -Summix

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