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Thread: Death Knight Frustrations

  1. #21

    Blizzard

    I am a warrior tank, and I can see what you are QQ'ing about...

    However, I don't think it was ever Blizz's intent to enable to a DK to be a true serious tank. Remember back to the BC days when DKs were cited as being the tanks that MT'd a spell casting type boss.

    If you want to be a "real" tank and MT every boss and such start leveling a Warrior or a Druid. Yes DKs are able to tank heroics and such (I have yet to see a really good one on my Alt), but Blizz doesn't really want you filling up the raid with another Warrior slot.

    I mean really, lets be honest. When a DK ISNT tanking he can put out nice DPS. I'm sure any Fury warrior would enjoy the same luxery of being able to tank.

    Also, don't forget that Blizz's intent in this expansion was to increase the number of tanks that could do heroics, not the tanks that could raid.
    Last edited by f14flier7; 02-06-2009 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by f14flier7 View Post
    I am a warrior tank, and I can see what you are QQ'ing about...

    However, I don't think it was ever Blizz's intent to enable to a DK to be a true serious tank. Remember back to the BC days when DKs were cited as being the tanks that MT'd a spell casting type boss.

    If you want to be a "real" tank and MT every boss and such start leveling a Warrior or a Druid. Yes DKs are able to tank heroics and such (I have yet to see a really good one on my Alt), but Blizz doesn't really want you filling up the raid with another Warrior slot.

    I mean really, lets be honest. When a DK ISNT tanking he can put out nice DPS. I'm sure any Fury warrior would enjoy the same luxery of being able to tank.

    Also, don't forget that Blizz's intent in this expansion was to increase the number of tanks that could do heroics, not the tanks that could raid.
    Huh what? Troll? IDK where to start with this.............
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syuivil View Post
    Domira... that has to be one of the, if not the worst rotations I have ever heard of. Ill assume that the people you run Naxx with are around your gear level, and sure for where you guys are that works fine..... Do not expect it to stay that way.

    Your threat is terrible without DnD because you don't have KM... post 3.0.8 KM is considered Baseline in frost tanking.

    Also if your going to pick up Annihilation you may as well pick up Epidemic. You'll see a huge benefit in your threat in that manner which will only scale once you grab Sigil of Awareness.

    Picking up Rune Tap dictates you to have it properly glyphed for raid utility.... but even then I wouldn't suggest it.

    I run Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Give or take a few talents...

    With BoS (don't even get me started on that) I spike to about 10k tps. Sustain at 8k on patch. 6k sustained TPS is fine but if you are MTing you will only be throttling your OT's DPS / TPS and gimping their rotation.
    Raid utility is fine, but I take rune tap purely because its a free "potion" use once every minute. Its an affective "holy shit" button I can cooldown to mitigate further damage. I'd add a glyph for it, but then I'd have to remove something else more uselfull, if I was dps, I might have it more for a raid utility.

    I've tried something like 100 different talent setups so far. Through pure testing, this has been the most affective one to date. I don't like the idea of taking Km, and then losing acclimate. I understand frost aura is not especially usefull in itself, however with the talent setup I used, it was either stick a point in it, or stop right there

    The point of this setup tho, and really the point of my suggestion of rotation is BURST TPS. Which I see a ton of complaints about.

    I burst upwards of 50k. Average burst is 20k. Sustained tps yes, is 6k - I go between 6 and 8, I can do higher threat rotation as the fight gets prolonged. If I want to burst up to an easy 100k, a short cycle will work, the penalty can be having a gap between cooldowns. This is going to lower your "average" tps. But ultimaty if your ahead of the burst curve, your sustained tps will climb faster than your dps, and other tanks.

    Call my rotation bad, I'm not one of these guys who can do the math for you. But I'd test the spec setup before telling me its terrible. KM is overrated, the percieved tps increase is from anhiliation, I checked. Crits do help achieve higher sustained threat, however simply doing icy touch, pest, howling blast - will get you an easy crit on aoe, and simply icy touch, howling blast will get you a crit. Keep in mind frost fever already increases your frost damage on a target, and howling blast automaticly crits on targets infected with frost fever.

    The advantage of a short cd cycle is you don't need to take talents in unholy to increase your disease duration, when you are taking advantage of that duration to make your quick rotation more affective.

    I agree, people in my gear range it is fine, but I'm double, or trippling threat dropped down every fight. I'm laughing at people geared much better than me, and I run with a lot of diverse group to guage just how affective my cycles are.

    FYI, if you check my armory at the moment, I just upgraded my pants to set, and am not quite gemmed/enchanted so that might affect how my charactor looks at the moment until gear is re-balanced.

  4. #24
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    I will try to be as civil as I can get, forgive me for being blunt at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by dorimira View Post
    I've tried something like 100 different talent setups so far. Through pure testing, this has been the most affective one to date. I don't like the idea of taking Km, and then losing acclimate. I understand frost aura is not especially usefull in itself, however with the talent setup I used, it was either stick a point in it, or stop right there
    Looking at your armory, you have respecced 5 times. IT's nowhere near 100 times you claimed. I respecced more than that to find my ideal leveling build.

    Frost Aura doesn't stack with MoTW nor Paladin Aura nor Shadow Protection Prayer. Acclimation is really bad due to it being too 'RNG'. The only fight that we can reliably rely on Acclimation is Saphiron, and honestly that fight is not hard enough to sink talent points into that talent.

    The point of this setup tho, and really the point of my suggestion of rotation is BURST TPS. Which I see a ton of complaints about.

    I burst upwards of 50k. Average burst is 20k. Sustained tps yes, is 6k - I go between 6 and 8, I can do higher threat rotation as the fight gets prolonged. If I want to burst up to an easy 100k, a short cycle will work, the penalty can be having a gap between cooldowns. This is going to lower your "average" tps. But ultimaty if your ahead of the burst curve, your sustained tps will climb faster than your dps, and other tanks.
    How do you come up with your numbers? 50k is absurd. There's no such thing as 'Average' 'Burst' - those 2 are as different as night and day. How do you define your 'burst'?

    Your rotation (IT - HB - BT - HB - DnD) does at most 20k (I am being very generous and assume all of them crit and raid buffed). You spent 4 GCD's there for 6 seconds. 20k/6 is 3.3k TPS, nowhere near 20k or even 100k that you pulled out of your rear. Sigh, Tankspot is becoming more and more like WoW forum, filled with misleading info all over the place.

    Call my rotation bad, I'm not one of these guys who can do the math for you. But I'd test the spec setup before telling me its terrible. KM is overrated, the percieved tps increase is from anhiliation, I checked. Crits do help achieve higher sustained threat, however simply doing icy touch, pest, howling blast - will get you an easy crit on aoe, and simply icy touch, howling blast will get you a crit. Keep in mind frost fever already increases your frost damage on a target, and howling blast automaticly crits on targets infected with frost fever.
    I took the liberty of underlining your misconceptions.
    Per your armory

    Here let me do the napkin math.
    You have 0% chance to crit. Now assume fully raid buffed, with moonkin aura (5% more crit), AI, kings, and mage debuff on the mob (10% more crit from imp scorch or winterchill) on your mob, you will sit at around 20% spell crit.

    20% is not 'a lot of crit'. How did you check and say "KM is overrated - perceived TPS increase from Annihilation?" Honestly.

    Howling Blast does double damage to Frost Fever-ed target, yes, but it does NOT automatically crit.

    Now were you to take KM and watch for the proc, it is really easy to bring your HB crit rate to 80-90% range (mistakes happen, having to renew IT just after KM proc sucks). Taking into account GotG (+45% bonus crit damage), you just practically doubled your HB damage.

    The advantage of a short cd cycle is you don't need to take talents in unholy to increase your disease duration, when you are taking advantage of that duration to make your quick rotation more affective.

    I agree, people in my gear range it is fine, but I'm double, or trippling threat dropped down every fight. I'm laughing at people geared much better than me, and I run with a lot of diverse group to guage just how affective my cycles are.
    Your rotation is NOT effective! Did you mean short rotation?
    You don't have to take Epidemic (+6 sec duration on diseases) to tank as frost.

    If you are doing double triple threat with your current spec/gear then I'd wonder what kind of people you are running with.

    FYI, if you check my armory at the moment, I just upgraded my pants to set, and am not quite gemmed/enchanted so that might affect how my charactor looks at the moment until gear is re-balanced.
    I am unholy dps specced atm, but I tank as frost with talents similar to what Syuivil linked.

    I am sorry, I can pull numbers out of the rabbit's ears and say I can 'burst' 1 million TPS, but until I can back it up people will just be calling me a clueless liar.

  5. #25
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    Taking into account GotG (+45% bonus crit damage), you just practically doubled your HB damage.
    Howling Blast only receives a 22.5% critical damage modifier from Guile of Gorefiend.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    Howling Blast only receives a 22.5% critical damage modifier from Guile of Gorefiend.
    He was bringing a 20% crit rate to 80%-90% crit rate just by taking KM and watch the proc.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by binatang View Post
    Your rotation (IT - HB - BT - HB - DnD) does at most 20k (I am being very generous and assume all of them crit and raid buffed). You spent 4 GCD's there for 6 seconds. 20k/6 is 3.3k TPS, nowhere near 20k or even 100k that you pulled out of your rear. Sigh, Tankspot is becoming more and more like WoW forum, filled with misleading info all over the place.
    I would agree with you about alot of what you have stated. The only thing I saw that was alil off was you didnt add in the 60% threat modifier for Frost Pres which brings that 3.3k to 5.3k. (Unless of course you already assumed that was added into the 20k in which case yes.. the 3.3k would be correct)

    There is alot of great information out there for people that are having trouble with threat. I dont really care to watch my threat numbers, as long as people arent pulling off me I just do my thing. Unless there are lots of dps pulling from you, you dont have an issue. I have a shadow priest in my guild that can pull some crazy numbers out reaching as high as 7k dps on certain fights. She may be right on my heals in threat but I dont care until she pulls, then I will see about fixing anything that might be amiss.

    I leveled frost, tanked frost and loved it. I love the frost three. Its the only one that to me... doesnt feel squishy. Currently I am a Blood frost build for self healing and added ap for soloing world bosses (need money and dailies get boring). I tanked adds for sarth just the other night and didnt have much problem picking up adds. It was alil rought without some of the better AoE threat talents but held up against the 7k dps shadow priests AoE. Is it the "best" spec for AoE tanking... not by a long shot. But through communication and timing, our dps would hold off until the call was made for AoE which I then get to set the tone and build up as much threat (within a resonable amount of time) I wanted. There is the other answer. Many people have said "DPS hold off?????!?!??!?!!!??". Even when I was playing my hunter or mage, you still need to use your head and understand that YOU the dps play a Huge role in the outcome of the engagement and its not just the tank. With this in mind, all dps, tanks, and healers understand that only through a team effort will things get done. Everyone loves to see big numbers, be it DPS, heals or tanks. But the love and lust for such numbers can and will lead to the downfall of the group. We tell our dps, the only numbers you need to be looking at are those coming from Omen. Those numbers are more important than those being flashed at you by DM or recount...

    I know we all have our spec's/tree's and dont want to have to respec for any certain situation but would rather like to see said spec's/tree's do everything so we dont have to change. But there in lies the problem. If we wanted every tree to be able to do everything then why have any other class. We'd all be able to do everything the only differance would be HOW it got done. For me I like knowing that I am not the greatest AoE tank unless I pick the right talents. I like knowing that I may not be "best" suited for the job, but that "that'll do pig" is just fine with me. Knowing that you have weaknesses is the first step in breaking down exactly where those weaknesses stem from and doing your best to nip them in the butt without QQ to devs on the WoW forums. After reading soo many posts by soo many talented DK's and figuring things out for myself, I have come to the conclusion that I dont want warrior abilities nor pally abilities. For me... half the battle is dealing with what short comings we have and smashing them to bits with creativity and knowhow.

    I guess what I am getting at is that you cant keep beating the class down for being built a certain way. And you cant just expect that because your dps or heals that you dont have to have alil intellegence and self control to help the tank out. For those that are having troubles and you have tried "everything"... Then I prolly dont have anything to say that your going to listen to. For me, there's never and end to the possibilities... especially with DK's!

  9. #29
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    What i've found to work for that snap threat Entry (granted it takes 3 GCD so not truly snap) is actually just my normal rotation. I use ps/it/SS or it/ps/SS (depending on if i'm pulling from range) to start and within that span i usually have about 15k threat up on the target. I run a pretty standard unholy build and yes i'm in one of those top guilds you're asking for opinions from. as of right this minute armory has me in my dps gear but i usually run with 258 hit, 41 expertise. i have a lot of the BIS pieces for mitigation and threat (missing those damn thaddius 25 boots). i NEVER am lucky enough to have BoSanc in raids as we have no prot pallies in guild and yet i still stay around 6-7k tps, spiking up to 9k situationally.

    Wow Web Stats

    i was tanking the faerlina fight, and i think maexxna, just look for any fight that has rune strike in as a top dps.

    i know the dps numbers look shitty in here, bear in mind most of the guild doesn't try for naxx anymore as it's too much cake. we have done sarth 3d 10, maly in 6m, and are just the immortal short of glory of the raider. i've tanked every fight in the game with them and am always ahead of the 5+k wars/boomkins/shams and by a wide margin

    one recommendation i can make for any dk that's having threat issues, DON'T WEAR just mitigation/avoidance pieces. for 95% of the fights in wrath for high end guilds your healers can survive with you in threat gear. use your gem slots for threat, not stam. i have a seperate set (chest, legs, shoulders of t7.5) that i use for avoidance and only swap it out for the fights i need it like sarth 3d or OT patch. stack expertise, it makes a huge difference. too many times i see dks with 20 expertise complaining about threat issues because they think that the magic damage they do makes up for not landing ps/melee/ss/ob/hs and whatever else. it's not terribly hard to get spell hit capped right now, you just may have to gem/chant for it which isn't hard to do at all
    Last edited by Malkieri; 02-06-2009 at 07:34 PM. Reason: added another comment about parse

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    Edit2: Also, BB doesn't actually work unless you get a disease on an add, as Sarth just immunes off you BB, leaving your Blood Rune unspent. Same for Pestilence, it fails to consume your Blood Rune unless a disease is applied to an additional mob.
    Cheers! 3.1 BB works off of mobs with no disease!

  11. #31
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    I guess a lot of us are missing the things right at the top of OP. This thread was intended for high-end tanking frustrations.

    Bandage solutions like "Tell your DPS to hold 5 seconds before unloading" is not applicable. Why tell the DPS to hold for DK tanks while they don't have to for Paladin tanks?

    Most people don't run into this problem as some people are still not geared to your progression, where you don't have 5, 6, 7k DPS breathing down your neck. I bet most of us who replied hasn't done 3 min Patchwerk or 5 min Malygos. In that case, yes, DK tanking TPS is perfectly fine. Once you have some DPS who know what they are doing who get within 10% of your threat, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss OP's concerns.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    *Lack of an AoE Taunt
    As much as this can be a blessing, it can also be a curse... When i think of it from my warrior i only ever used it in the "OMG" situations, you know those situations that should not even happen!...

    And... just how many "taunts" to you want us to have? o.O

    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    *Minimal ability to react to situations such as additional mobs coming out of nowhere
    Im puzzled by how you think we are worse of here than warriors... As far as i would say we are better off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    *Mediocre burst threat
    If your talking initial pull, i agree that we arent as powerfull as warriors and druids...

    What i don't understand is why you take patchwerk as an example... now im Unholy so i don't know what differences that makes to frost TPS whise...

    Normaly i put down DnD way ahead of him reaching me, while this ofc means he won't take a full blow of it, it enables me to run (0.0)DnD -> (4.0)IT -> (5.5)PS -> (7.0)BS -> (8.5)DC -> (10.0)BT -> (10.5)SS -> (12.0)SS... where DnD and IT is out before he has reached me... for me DnD is still roughly 15-17k Threat raid buffed (Observed)... so even though it only get 5-6 ticks on the boss, it's is still a good boost for me...

    Since our DPS wait's till hes at me and my fellow tanks feet, this gives at about 6 sec before the first FrostFireball, Shadowball or whatever they use hit him... and often a bit more... at this point im normaly close to my first 20K depending on a Parry or Dodge so i can have my first RS landing as they land just about when there first spells...

    Obviously Melee will land there first attack a bit sooner, but in most cases since hes fat, it seems to go softer on the threat.

    From here on its surstained threat, and on patchwerk i don't really seem to find an issue, when first he begins to hit you, the TPS goes up quite alot.

    Now your rotation is obviously somewhat difference as frost, but you should still be able to put threat on him before he reaches you, what abillities is best as frost for that im not shure, DnD gives lesser numbers i can only presume?...

    Now if you have DPS starting of before he reaches you well, then they are obviously idiots... especially if it's the melee kind o.O... and that doesn't matter what tank type you have on him...

    For the rest of the bosses, being able to do a pull like that is very situational... and not all bosses will allow it... And i have feelt some DPS'ers up and beond my ass... normally things turn out ok... but it does happen that someone get an lucky but unlucky crit streak right at the start... And then i really need to push it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    *Heavy reliance on Rune Strike
    100% agree... this is where i really feel like im standing on the wrong feet as a DK tank. Theres lot's and lot's of good abilities, but even with hit capped when im raidbuffed + expertise over the dodge cap, i find my self in need to mash RS as much as possible... funny when it was meant to among other things compensate for our Misses and getting dodged...

    Finding solutions to this is beond my creativety for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    *Lack of a means to generate more Runic Power than you normally could (regardless of if a boss hit you for 9000 or 9, you'd still be generating identical TPS)
    Keep in mind you won't gennerate less either if the boss barely hit you... Sadly we are at a turn where warriors and druids seem to have endless rage making the comparison here a bit silly for now...

    But, in further content there are the potential risk of them getting rage starvated at surtain turns, we knew this to be a huge issue back in TBC... lets hope for them we never quite get there again. But we don't know if we will end un going in the direction of it...

    For now, the advantage of our Rune/RP system mostly seem to benefit our DPS brothers, and not as much us tanks... But lets se what Ulduar brings before we cry out to much about this.
    Last edited by dotJEM; 02-09-2009 at 01:59 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    As much as this can be a blessing, it can also be a curse... When i think of it from my warrior i only ever used it in the "OMG" situations, you know those situations that should not even happen!...

    And... just how many "taunts" to you want us to have? o.O



    Im puzzled by how you think we are worse of here than warriors... As far as i would say we are better off...



    If your talking initial pull, i agree that we arent as powerfull as warriors and druids...

    What i don't understand is why you take patchwerk as an example... now im Unholy so i don't know what differences that makes to frost TPS whise...

    Normaly i put down DnD way ahead of him reaching me, while this ofc means he won't take a full blow of it, it enables me to run (0.0)DnD -> (4.0)IT -> (5.5)PS -> (7.0)BS -> (8.5)DC -> (10.0)BT -> (10.5)SS -> (12.0)SS... where DnD and IT is out before he has reached me... for me DnD is still roughly 15-17k Threat raid buffed (Observed)... so even though it only get 5-6 ticks on the boss, it's is still a good boost for me...

    Since our DPS wait's till hes at me and my fellow tanks feet, this gives at about 6 sec before the first FrostFireball, Shadowball or whatever they use hit him... and often a bit more... at this point im normaly close to my first 20K depending on a Parry or Dodge so i can have my first RS landing as they land just about when there first spells...

    Obviously Melee will land there first attack a bit sooner, but in most cases since hes fat, it seems to go softer on the threat.

    From here on its surstained threat, and on patchwerk i don't really seem to find an issue, when first he begins to hit you, the TPS goes up quite alot.

    Now your rotation is obviously somewhat difference as frost, but you should still be able to put threat on him before he reaches you, what abillities is best as frost for that im not shure, DnD gives lesser numbers i can only presume?...

    Now if you have DPS starting of before he reaches you well, then they are obviously idiots... especially if it's the melee kind o.O... and that doesn't matter what tank type you have on him...

    For the rest of the bosses, being able to do a pull like that is very situational... and not all bosses will allow it... And i have feelt some DPS'ers up and beond my ass... normally things turn out ok... but it does happen that someone get an lucky but unlucky crit streak right at the start... And then i really need to push it.



    100% agree... this is where i really feel like im standing on the wrong feet as a DK tank. Theres lot's and lot's of good abilities, but even with hit capped when im raidbuffed + expertise over the dodge cap, i find my self in need to mash RS as much as possible... funny when it was meant to among other things compensate for our Misses and getting dodged...

    Finding solutions to this is beond my creativety for now.



    Keep in mind you won't gennerate less either if the boss barely hit you... Sadly we are at a turn where warriors and druids seem to have endless rage making the comparison here a bit silly for now...

    But, in further content there are the potential risk of them getting rage starvated at surtain turns, we knew this to be a huge issue back in TBC... lets hope for them we never quite get there again. But we don't know if we will end un going in the direction of it...

    For now, the advantage of our Rune/RP system mostly seem to benefit our DPS brothers, and not as much us tanks... But lets se what Ulduar brings before we cry out to much about this.
    I'll start off with your assessment of our ability to react to a situation such as additional and unintended mobs coming at a later time. We are limited by runes. In a game where every single global matters, runes cause huge problems for me in situations like this. Yes, I can Death and Decay (mine has a 30 second cooldown, but I suppose if you were Unholy it'd be 15), but that takes one of every rune. You've now halved my available abilities. So let's say some mobs come out of the woodwork about 10 seconds into the pack, your death and decay has since expired, and the mobs are starting to run for healers. You sit there staring at your runes, maybe hitting your Empower Rune Weapon (only to have Death and Decay remain on cooldown), and maybe land a near worthless howling blast on 3 of the 6 mobs that just came without your anticipating it. Ideally this is where another of the tanks in the raid would step up, but sometimes it doesn't happen. Ideally you could pestilence as they come in and tag them with Frost Fever to get a decent threat lead on everyone when you HB. However, adds rarely come in at such an ideal angle. Regardless of whether this is an intended weakness of the class or not, it's frustrating (see title). I, personally, am simply limited by globals and runes when generating threat right off the bat. I know what to do, I can do it, and I do, well, do it.

    The rest of your points are directed at a content level lower than what I inteded to be discussing, and I apologize for being so rude, but I definitely value your input and criticism.
    Last edited by Entry; 02-10-2009 at 03:17 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    I'll start off with your assessment of our ability to react to a situation such as additional and unintended mobs coming at a later time. We are limited by runes. In a game where every single global matters, runes cause huge problems for me in situations like this. Yes, I can Death and Decay (mine has a 30 second cooldown, but I suppose if you were Unholy it'd be 15), but that takes one of every rune. You've now halved my available abilities. So let's say some mobs come out of the woodwork about 10 seconds into the pack, your death and decay has since expired, and the mobs are starting to run for healers. You sit there staring at your runes, maybe hitting your Empower Rune Weapon (only to have Death and Decay remain on cooldown), and maybe land a near worthless howling blast on 3 of the 6 mobs that just came without your anticipating it. Ideally this is where another of the tanks in the raid would step up, but sometimes it doesn't happen. Ideally you could pestilence as they come in and tag them with Frost Fever to get a decent threat lead on everyone when you HB. However, adds rarely come in at such an ideal angle. Regardless of whether this is an intended weakness of the class or not, it's frustrating (see title). I ,personally, am simply limited by globals and runes when generating threat right off the bat. I know what to do, I can do it, and I do, well, do it.

    The rest of your points are directed at a content level lower than what I inteded to be discussing, and I apologize for being so rude, but I definitely value your input and criticism.
    Can you point out where this is happening?
    I can think of Gothik as one place, but if you let your dps know when they can aoe and when they can not alot of the issue is resolved.

    Having to comunicate with your dps dont mean your are a bad tank its not like a warrior can just thunderclap and let the mages go wild anyway. Atm the only class that can effordlessly handle a steady stream of mobs are paladins with druids on second place. Warriors and dk's have to time their aoe abilities meaning the dps have to time with you. It dosent make us sub par, it only makes us different.

    As for the bos and rs synergy i can see your point, but as i said earlier i dont see the point in complaning about it when blizz already have stated they are going to change how bos works, since its current form is flawed.

    Also stating the dk's will have major issues in future raids because our initiall threat is lower is a shoot in the dark when we have no idea on what is inside ulduar. Unless you have inside information on what to expect there i sugest you wait and see before you come with such claims.

    Personaly i dont want the class to be balanced around making a 2min timer on patch. If your warrior can make that timer easier just suck it up, there is alot of stuff dk's can do better aswell.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Can you point out where this is happening?
    I can think of Gothik as one place, but if you let your dps know when they can aoe and when they can not alot of the issue is resolved.

    Having to comunicate with your dps dont mean your are a bad tank its not like a warrior can just thunderclap and let the mages go wild anyway. Atm the only class that can effordlessly handle a steady stream of mobs are paladins with druids on second place. Warriors and dk's have to time their aoe abilities meaning the dps have to time with you. It dosent make us sub par, it only makes us different.

    As for the bos and rs synergy i can see your point, but as i said earlier i dont see the point in complaning about it when blizz already have stated they are going to change how bos works, since its current form is flawed.

    Also stating the dk's will have major issues in future raids because our initiall threat is lower is a shoot in the dark when we have no idea on what is inside ulduar. Unless you have inside information on what to expect there i sugest you wait and see before you come with such claims.

    Personaly i dont want the class to be balanced around making a 2min timer on patch. If your warrior can make that timer easier just suck it up, there is alot of stuff dk's can do better aswell.
    Gothik is one of them, yes, but it's largely frustrating on trash. It's not DPS AoEing that presents the issue, but healers healing and generating more than the zero threat I'm generating while I pray for enough Runes to reactivate to be able to prevent deaths. Warriors can Thunderclap every 6 seconds, in addition to being able to toss a shockwave to snap additional mobs to them. Death and Decay has a 30 second cooldown, Howling Blast only does decent damage against targets infected with Frost Fever, and we're limited by Runes, not particularly globals in this type of situation. Your other points about DPS AoEing are irrelevant and not what I was talking about at all. Next, I don't care that BoSanc is being changed, I know that it is, but it's a serious concern right now. It will continue to be until they fix it, and I'm trying to expedite the process. Do you have any idea what I mean when I say top-end DPS/guilds? Why should DPS have to hold back for a few seconds for one class but not another (assuming equal gear)? This goes against Blizzard's declared intentions. The conclusions that I've reached are not based solely on Patchwerk, it's a benchmark I use to weed out the bads that try to post irrelevant and unhelpful information (I'm referring to you a tiny bit here, Nips).


    Edit: I also foresee the same thing happening with Blood Boil (upcoming change) that I cite above as happening with Howling Blast.
    Last edited by Entry; 02-10-2009 at 04:28 AM.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    Well ill admitt i dont tank for a high end guild lol.
    This site is for everyone to post on. I'm not saying i'm right and you are wrong, but doing the old i tank for a great guild so my opinion is more valid strikes me as odd tbh.

    You say dk's are bad at picking up aoe from healers and your dps have to hold back, well lets clear that up.

    warriors have thunderrclap on a 6 s cd, shockwave on a 20 s cd a aoe taunt with a 5min cd and one ranged taunt.

    Frost Dk's have howling blast on a 5s cd, dnd that can be talented to a 15s cd pestilence who can be used 2 times each 10 seconds and 2 ranged taunts.

    so Basically a dk have more abilities to pick up spawning adds... but thats not the whole pickture. No dnd can be placed 30 yrads from you (great for picking up whelps when tanking tenebron with multiple drakes up, oh wait.. dk's are the better choise tanking sarth aswell). Howling blast have a 30 yard range which outperform thunderclaps short range by far.

    It's pretty clear that you dont see the limitations on warrior aoe tanking compared to a dk. A warrior have to charge around picking up mobs while a dk can pretty much stand on one spot and harvest mobs. Thats alteast what i do on gothik... i just stand on one spot and collect whatever that spawns.

  17. #37
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    Oct 2008
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    My former main was a Warrior, I am fully aware of their limitations and what they excel at doing. You're forgetting the part where you have to spend 3 talent points much better placed in another spot to pick up a mediocre talent that's largely useless as Frost (only useful for trash, and even as Unholy with it talented there's downtime to the spell [Unholy Blight'd probably make up for this, not sure]). At least try to make your posts coherent while completely missing my points please.

  18. #38
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    Jun 2008
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    261
    Well since your former main was a warrior i'm sure you have tried to tank the adds on Jan'alai without killing the hartcher on one side at a time. If you think a warrior would do that job better then a dk please explain.

    And no, morbidity is not useless when your healers are dying on you.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    22
    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Well since your former main was a warrior i'm sure you have tried to tank the adds on Jan'alai without killing the hartcher on one side at a time. If you think a warrior would do that job better then a dk please explain.
    What? Old content is old and not part of this discussion.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    261
    It was an example, and if you had answered it you would see that dk's are not as bad off as you intially think..

    Anyways if you can handle picking up the adds on gothik i dont see how you can complain that dk's have problems picking up spawning adds>.>

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