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Thread: Death Knight Frustrations

  1. #1
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    Death Knight Frustrations

    90% of the content of this post is assuming a high end raiding guild (bare minimum sub 2-minute Patchwerk). Keep that in mind as you read please.

    So, I'll start this off with my background as a tank. I played a Rogue throughout a large majority Burning Crusade (obtaining top 10 Sunwell kills), after which I switched to a Warrior main. After playing this Warrior through the beginning of Wrath, I switched to a Death Knight main with the intention of remaining as a tank. I have to say, things have gotten a lot better after 3.08. I mean A LOT better. I play as Frost currently, but I've danced between a Death Rune Icy Touch spam build (Death Rune Mastery/Frost), Unholy, a Vetern of the Third War/Frost build, a 16/50/5, and my current build: 13/50/8. Having played as the variety of specs that I have, I can (without prejudice) say Frost is currently superior for single target threat, in most cases AoE threat (excluding add tanking on Sartharion and general trash sometimes), and survivability (Sartharion 3D excluded). Overall I'm happy with the way the spec plays. I'm not overwhelmed with perfecting my rotation as I was with the Death Rune Mastery/Frost build, I don't have obscenely long amounts of time with nothing to do like I did with the Unholy builds, and my threat is pretty significant no matter what the circumstance.

    With all that said. there's almost always threat issues at the start of a fight. As a Death Knight your threat windup is pretty time consuming and ineffective. Let's look at a Warrior's compared to a Death Knights:

    Minute:Second:Fractions of a Second
    Warrior:
    Heroic Throw (start, going off when the mob actually arrives to you here)
    00:00:00 Shield Block + Lavanthor's
    00:00:00 Shield Slam (rage permitting, assuming you Bloodraged before the fight this shouldn't be an issue)
    00:01:50 Revenge/Devastate (avoidance permitting)
    00:03:00 Revenge/Devastate/Shield Slam ("+S&B)

    Death Knight: All of this is unbuffed and non-critical.
    00:00:00 Icy Touch (1220 with Sigil if it's your first ability, 1440 if you already have a disease up) 25 Runic Power
    00:01:50 Plague Strike (see above, interchangable) 10 Runic Power
    00:03:00 Howling Blast (1978 damage on average) 15 Runic Power
    00:04:50 Blood Strike (700ish) 10 Runic Power
    00:06:00 " 10 Runic Power
    Sit around for 2 seconds while your rune comes back up, or pop your 5 minute cooldown (Empower Rune Weapon) to get some more threat in there. Of course, if you have Blessing of Sanctuary you can afford to Frost Strike with the massive amount of Runic Power you get, otherwise you end up saving it for Rune Strikes. While 2 seconds may not seem like a large issue, the fact that we can't start out using our primary threat generator (Rune Strike) is a huge issue, and results in pretty lackluster burst threat. Heroic Strike for Warriors is pretty big, and without the ability to spam it their threat becomes somewhat mediocre. Rune Strike for Death Knights is f***ing massive, and without the ability to spam it our threat becomes s***. This can all of course be remedied with Blessing of Sanctuary, but we won't get into that discussion here. Also, plesae note that all your magical damage will hit a lot harder with buffs and a Curse of Elements mechanism, as well as Razorice and various other things.


    All in all, what I listed above isn't all that bad though. Until you factor in the fact that, as a Death Knight, you have to deal with the spell hit cap in place of the melee one. Good luck getting 17% hit (4% from a spacegoat and a Shadow Priest/Balance Druid) in your best in slot gear (chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x). Now, not being hit capped as a tank isn't usually that huge of a deal. On a Warrior missing sucks, but it doesn't completely shut you down. Howling Blast getting resisted though, actually does completely shut you down for 5 seconds. You can IT with the Frost Rune, but that's about it. You can remedy this with Virulence in place of 3% crit across the board, which is a trade that I'd make 8 times out of 10, but getting hit capped is still complicated. So, with the gear I linked you have 210 hit rating, which is about 8% spell hit. Add virulence in and you're at 11%, add another 4% from a spacegoat and a Priest/Druid and you're at 15%. Doing pretty good, and you almost cap out with hit food. What if you're a Horde Death Knight with no space goats? Or what if you don't have a Shadow Priest or Balance Druid? You're s*** out of luck. Making a tank reach the spell hit cap is ridiculous. and nearly impossible with the best gear out there. You can swap gear and reach it just fine, but what about that Ulduar boss that hits like a f***ing truck, rendering your +hit gear and your reliance on it as a Death Knight a hinderance to the raid. I personally just hope they leave a big hole in that frost resistant boss spot that usually pops up (Sapphiron anyone? I can't land s*** on that dragon). Partials are pretty annoying as well, especially because they affect almost everything but Rune Strike.

    Blessing of Sanctuary takes Heroic Strike from probably around 60%, maybe lower, to a solid 100%. That's a lot of threat right there. Blessing of Sanctuary takes Rune Strike (150% threat modifier, swinging a 2h weapon with 150% damage modifier as well, that's a TON of threat per strike) from around 30-40% to 100%. In addition, it enables you to Frost Strike with the Runic Power you generate independantly of the Blessing. I was looking at a 2:45ish Patchwerk parse, and a Death Knight had gained over 1100 Runic Power from Blessing of Sanctuary. I know I said I wouldn't get into the Sanctuary discussion here, and I apologize, but the reliance on it is so severe for Death Knights it's the difference between 4000 TPS and 8000-9000. Yeah, it's that huge. My point is, the severity of the reliance Death Knights have upon Rune Strike is obscene and needs some form of modification. Be it removal of the RP cost (could very well unbalance PvP), some talent that lets you generate RP when you avoid an attack, or some other form of change, I don't care.

    I'm personally of the opinion Death Knight survivability is for the most part perfectly fine, barring things like Sartharion when he gains the immunity shield, which prevents you from putting Blade Barrier up. Unless of course you force someone to drag an add to you so you can pestilence it, and then blood boil off of it. The issue with that though, is it'd have to take place almost every 10 seconds, creating unnecesary confusion and complexity. Icebound scaling more efficiently up to 50% would be wonderful, I'd even take 40-45%. Unbreakable Armor taking a Frost Rune is somewhat annoying, but nothing more than that. The parts of the class that needs changing right now (in my opinion) include:

    *Lack of an AoE Taunt
    *Minimal ability to react to situations such as additional mobs coming out of nowhere
    *Mediocre burst threat
    *Heavy reliance on Rune Strike
    *Lack of a means to generate more Runic Power than you normally could (regardless of if a boss hit you for 9000 or 9, you'd still be generating identical TPS)

    I'm sure there's more I'll include at some point in time, but that's all for now.

  2. #2
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    Hi and thanks for all that thinking.

    I'm currently playing as a DK tank in a "not so bad" but not top guild (We are able to do Patchy 3 min, but not all the time, and never went less than 2'50 I think in 10 men, never got it in 25 as we aren't 25 to raid most of the time, but I remember we managed to do it in about 3'10).
    I know this is not really what your talking about, but I've been asking the same question about how can we push great aggro from start just like prot wars with their shield slam ? Well I've come with a pretty way of getting that aggro, not so bad I think but must got some talents. Here si how I pull some Patchy's like mobs (read here : mobs where you need to be at top right from the start).
    I just follow the sequence :
    Blood tap (DRBBUU)
    00:00 : IT (DRBUU)
    01:50 : HB (DRU)
    03:00 : Death Chill then Obli (R)
    04:50 : BS

    This is the best I've managed to come out with. I play a 11/50/10 spec with virulence and I'm currently at 7% hit with spell none buff. This lack of hit with spells (ally side with a space goat an generally a BoS) is really annoying as for the relliance on BoS so we can achieve more and more TPS.
    RS i sa great tool, but it cost us too much (just seeing the numbers, let's say that a 2.0 boss hit you and you dodge/parry at near 60%. So in 20 seconds the boss hit you 10 times, and you were able to RS 6 times, so in 20 seconds you should come with 120 RP. That IS doable, but you wouldn't be able to do anything but that).

    About the points you point at, at the end. AE taunt ? Why whould we need that ? Course it would be cool to be able to do that, but palyes/bears/prot war can do it, and moves lile DnD - IT/Pest/HB are kind od AE taunt, but it takes time. How many time I've said, I need an AE taunt, but in the end I'm not sure this is necessary.
    Our ability to react to situation such as additional mobs is ERW (Empower Runic Weapon). With that you lay be able to drop a DnD or go Pest/HB most of the time. In an other way AotD is a great tool too, this can just buy you the time you need to construct good aggro on the newcomers. BUT theses abilities are on a too long CD, and if they weren't they would be overpowered.
    On the burst threat, appart from KM and Death Chill we don't have anything. KM is a proc, so can't rely on at start, and DC on a 2 min CD, that means one in a fight.
    RS mechanism is good. Just we need some inate talent, or low tree talent, that allow us to generate at least 10 RP / parry or dodge. Cause today we are dependent of that blessing.
    The RP generation is great today. Just think, we got a ressource that IS really infinite, why would we change that ? We just need more RP to properly use RS and our RP dump when we may do it. But at the opposite, juste think about all your RP tech cost nothing or a RP bar that is always full (a Vael like buff). What are you going to do then ? Would youe really use more and more RP tech or still just "dump" your RP when no runes are up ?

  3. #3
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    Thanks Entry, that's a nice analysis of your spec vulnerabilities, and of the class, albeit a bit editorial posed as absolutes.

    One thing you didn't mention, that may help fill a gap, after you spend your runes, ERW is one option much better as an oh-sh*t, but Blood Tap you can just about use on CD. I find it perfect after you dump your first set of runes, since later on, personally, my rune spending evens out well and I don't often have big blackouts. For Frost, with your glyphs and talents, Blood Tap + IT will be a big insert and threat smoother.

    I'm with you mostly though, there are some very distinct vulnerabilities for us as tanks, they aren't terrible if you are a smart player, but they are certainly there, and I'm glad the computer doesn't think so as to exploit them.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
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    First off, Props for a good write up of the situation and from the same server.

    Pretty much everything you have said is true (I dont have a sub 2 min kill, but I have 6 - 7K DPSer behind me for patch).

    My suggestion for a high threat opener on a patch like fight would be this:

    Rune tap
    IT (as boss is running to you) 1500 ave
    HoW (as boss runs in) Threat from RP gained
    OB 2000
    OB 2000
    BS 700
    FS 1500

    Thats should add up to close to 15K threat in 4 GCD of the boss getting to you plus whatever you get from RS hits plus MD and ToT.

    To me its not the initial threat that is the problem. Its the sustained threat. I normally play unholy so I have alot of "down" time (not burning a GCD on something) and I would argue a unholy tank has more reason to be spell hit capped than a frost tank. The 2 main problems I have are parried/missed attacks which push my rotation off a GCD and whenever I have to use/setup a defensive CD (BS for me, UA for you) which require runes which then interferes with our threat rotation. Correct me if im wrong but I believe we are the only tank in the game that has defensive CDs that both eat a resource and a GCD. I would be fine if BS/UA took a GCD to do as long as they didnt burn a rune. I would then only push my rotation off by a GCD which I can live with as opposed to now my whole rotation is off as I wait for the rune to come off CD.

    Overall though, I do feel threat on the tanks is much better than it was in TBC. And maybe we have been spoiled by the whole premise of not having to worry about threat due to the large leads, but as a DK, we are capping out the top end DPSer where as other tanks are not having this much trouble. Now, the fact that you are in Alpha (top guild on server to those who arent aware), I would assume that your DPS are burning there threat dump CDs and havent forgotten them .

    As far as the picking up of adds is concerned, as unholy I think I have a big advantage here (my disease tick for a good ammount) so I can just do a double pest to catch a group that is running in. I think the change to pest has made this a much smoother issue and I actually havent had any trouble picking up add packs. But there are situations where I do wish I had an AoE taunt, but in a controlled situation, I have yet to need it.

    Last tid bit, for Sarth 3D, you can burn pest without an add on you. the only problem doing this is you may get an add on you. I have yet to try this out, but someone had suggested using BB (since you can still disease him through the immunity, or atleast he gets the debuff) as that would not aggro a blaze on you.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  5. #5
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    *Lack of an AoE Taunt
    *Minimal ability to react to situations such as additional mobs coming out of nowhere
    *Mediocre burst threat
    *Heavy reliance on Rune Strike
    *Lack of a means to generate more Runic Power than you normally could (regardless of if a boss hit you for 9000 or 9, you'd still be generating identical TPS)

    Aoe taunt can be solved with using dnd or hb before any of the dps go nuts and if you got your runes on cd you can use Empower Rune Weapon - Spell - World of Warcraft or tell your dps to slow the f#% down...

    Mediocre burst threat?
    Try using IT/Deathchill/HB on your pull. Normaly you would start at 12-15k threat before the mob even reaches you. I dont see how any other tanking class can top that sort of burst at boss pull.

    Hevy reliance on rune strike.
    So what if we are reliant on an ablity that is buffed by bos, every tanking class is that atm and its getting changed in the future anyway.

    Lack of a means to generate more Runic Power than you normally could.
    Again so what?
    DK's are capable of generating more then enough threat atm more is always better, but it's not needed.

    Personaly i think that a frost thank is more then fine atm. The other tree's could be buffed some, but there is no real argument to denye a dk tank stuff.

  6. #6
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    Well in our defense one of our staples (warriors) is the best single target threat.

    Do you want warriors to be last in everything ..?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by greendragonempire View Post
    Well in our defense one of our staples (warriors) is the best single target threat.

    Do you want warriors to be last in everything ..?
    Must say i aggre with you (although i think warriors bring more then just good single target threat). Alot of dk's seems to think that unless they have all the good stuff that other tanks have they are lacking and post major conserns threads... I dont mind a discussion over dk tanking, but dk's are more then fine atm.

    Here is the deal.. Tanking classes are still different and you cant have every tanking ability that is in the game. So if you encounter a situation that you feel you are lacking in you should plan ahead and adapt rather then come qq'ing here.

  8. #8
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    wow, I really dont think you understand the DK class at all or have ever tanked for a truelly end game group Nips.

    Tell DPS to slow down??? Huh, what? Are we in MC or Kara? And why the hell should I make my DPS slow down when other tanks (read all of them) dont have the same problem.

    yeah, we are highly reliant on RS. Pre patch, RS was my top damaging ability by a long shot. So, in theory I would want to use that on CD right?? Like Shield slam?? Oh, thats right, we cant. No word of a lie, my threat almost doubles in a 25 man raid when I have BoSanc as compared to when I dont have it.

    The point of burst threat is that Warroirs and pallys can do almost double what we do in our first 4 GCDs. So on heavy burn fights, we are by far (50%) worse than other tanks? You think this is ok? Im fine with the fact that maybe we cant be the best burst threat tank, but I dont want to be 50% of what the others can do. 80 or 90% of that would be better. And the whole point of what he was saying is that we are dependent on an ability that at best will only miss 7-8% of the time on the pull. Warrior and druids only deal with maybe 5% from parries in top end gear? this is why I suggested using a DC+OB opener just due to the fact its not a spell and therefore will hit more realiably. And its not just about burst threat either, its long term threat too. If we have a bad string of misses, we dont have a move that can instantly burst threat (SS or Mangle) and will have to reset our diseases and rune rotation.

    this is not a discussion about 5 man or 10 man threat, this is a discussion of top end 25 mans especially with Uldar to come where things will be harder.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  9. #9
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    Concern

    I am currently a Death Knight tank in one of the better guilds on my server. That said, when 3.0.8 came out I had a similar problem to most previous 23/5/43 tanks. Adjusting to these changes, the frost play style, and increasing my TPS during the spec change. Last night I ran with BoS for the first time and saw an absolutely ridiculous increase in my TPS numbers. I pulled 2750DPS on patch and saw my threat spike upwards of 10k TPS. I could have easily reached 3kDPS if I hadn't had to stop my rotation at ~30% in fear that I would pull off the tank.

    My hopes for 3.1 is a new system of RP Generation possibly based on damage. Possibly make Replenishment give 1RP per tick? Possibly let JoW give RP?

    I and my fellow deathknights would hate to see the future of DK tanking be
    "LOLIHASSANCLAWL"

  10. #10
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    Ray you are right i'm not as leet as you, but you guys are still wrong. There are alot of warriors that would give their left arm for some of our abilities, just like there are dk's wanting ss a rage bar or whatever. But sure comparing ss and rs shows you realy knows the ups and downs of both warrior and dk tanking.

  11. #11
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    Ss > rs

    SS instant.....
    RS is not

    SS eats a GCD
    RS does not...

    What do warriors want that DK's have.... lackluster threat (comparatively) without BoS?

    Ideally a DK has less than 5% White attacks while tanking, however without BoS this is just a delusional fantasy.

    You tell me.

  12. #12
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    The comparison you outlined relies on using three CDs (Heroic Throw, Shield Block, Trinket) to produce burst threat for the warrior without a corresponding threat boost for the DK - doesn't seem too fair there. Now if you actually use your cooldowns: Blood Tap, Deathchill, and some form of trinket your burst threat will increase significantly.

    Either way, a higher threat opener would be:
    IT - PS - OB - Blood Tap/OB - RP Dump; with the potential for a free HB if Rime procs.

    A single disease rotation is another option:
    IT - BS - OB - Blood Tap/OB as an opener.

    If my brain is working right, you already have 7% spell hit in a raid environment (assuming your spec with 3/3 Virulence, Heroic Presence, and Misery/Imp FF.) Obtaining 263 hit rating in a threat set is very reasonable. The big problem may be that you are building a rotation around HB rather than OB if missing it is really that big of an issue. Of course, you could just Obliterate if your HB misses and be done with it.
    Last edited by larson; 02-05-2009 at 01:36 PM.

  13. #13
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    I wouldn't mind some more AoE threat as a warrior??? DK's are godly at controlling groups of mobs. Pallies destroy Druids and Warriors, and DK's destroy pallies. Sure we get an AoE taunt, but it has a huge CD and functions only for 6 seconds unless we build up threat on everything we taunted.

    Also, I'd currently consider DK's a fair bit more defensible than a warrior, and certainly able to soak burst near the level of a druid.


    As far as the OP goes I'd like to point out the use of Lavanthor's is a choice. I find that my initial threat is just fine without and normally stack full sunders before using shield block / Lavanthor's to burst above in threat. Barring fights that jack up dps numbers I can pull twice the threat of our dps.

    Our DK (even when we don't have BoS) does just fine, but a simple fix would be to take BoS out of the protection tree and give it to all paladins. When our DK has BoS his sustained threat is great, and his burst threat is just fine.



    A small caveat to the above would be say three drake Sartharion where guilds commonly blow all CD's including Hero right when the first drake lands. Ok, maybe then I'd put my warrior in that possition before any other class. I don't think that's a problem. Druid/DK dominate us at taking Sartharion breaths, and DK/Pallies dominate us on adds. That gives DK's strong viability in 2 of the three possitions in that fight while each other class only has one.


    On a side note the one ability I want that a DK has is deathgrip. I'd give up shockwave to turn my taunt into a deathgrip, and I'm a man that loves my shockwave.

  14. #14
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    A bit off-topic, but I completely disagree that a Paladin dominates a Warrior on tanking Sartharion adds. In fact, until recently it was the other way around.

    Before 3.0.8, Warriors were so much better than Paladins with an infinite taunt, on demand threat with TC + Shockwave, and far superior mobility. Now that Paladins have a second taunt it's a bit closer, but I would never want a static consecrate over my mobile TC for that specific fight. (Though in 10 man 3 drake, with a paladin healer with RF on a Paladin is likely superior.) Non-blood DKs obliterate both classes though - a ranged consecrate, two taunts, and multiple ways to aggro new mobs is win.

  15. #15
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    Tps

    So I've not run into this threat issue yet on my DK. I'm sure I will, but when I OT patchie, I have to auto attack through the fight not to pull threat. I don't dare touch anything till the other tank has over 50k above me.

    Initial threat can be an issue, but I think theres a really easy fix that I suspect is being overlooked.

    Do you remember to tap 1 (assuming 1 is your auto attack) right before, or just after you toss out an icy touch?

    Just making sure my auto attacks hit, icy touch, howling blast is a solid initial 20 to 25k right off. Follow that up with blood tap, DND - you will be laughing with your easy 6k + tps.

    Frankly, we get to focused on a long rotation, when a short rotation can be just as affective. If your frost specced, frost fever is your golden ticket, all you need is that icy touch, icy blast then crits giving you EASY tps. If you cycle in (assuming blood of the north) blood strikes, along with timely blood taps, your going to have death runs to double up your icy touch/howling blast, and continue dumping DND. This maximizes threat so you can just focus on moving, cooldowns, and other things going on. An occassional cycle of plague strike, pest, is good. And I think it almost goes without saying, your going to be dumping all your RP for even more tps madness.

    The only time I've had someone have issues with pulling initial threat off me so far is when they failed to wait for me to hit ANY aoe.

  16. #16
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    Dorimira, not to disrespect you in anyway shape or form but what Entry is refering to is multiple DPS that are pulling 6k+ dps on patchwerk and playing the max/min game with rotations and gearing, particularly Fearlol i believe...

  17. #17
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    I apologize, but I read the start of some peoples' posts and I decided against replying to them, sorry. However: why would I want an AoE taunt? Really? The fact that as a class we're limited by Runes limits our reactivity in regards to unexpected circumstances arising such as a tank dying on trash, mobs getting out of control and running around hitting 10 different people, among many other situations in which an AoE taunt is quite necessary. In regards to openers, I Deathchill my Howling Blast (after my initial IT), and usually end up all right. I don't actually use Obliterate because of the fact it can be parried (or dodged, but I'm personally sitting on 28 expertise currently) as well as the Glyph slot it takes up. And yes, I remember my Blood Taps and Horn of Winters, but when an excellent enhancement shaman starts out on Patchwerk 3 seconds after engaging him (maybe one second with him in my face) and generates 5k TPS right off the bat, there's almost nothing I can do as a Death Knight to overcome this. I actually still play my Warrior as an alt (Egress, feel free to armory if you want) so I personally understand the various means of burst threat that warriors have. I'm not asking for Death Knights to be identical to or better than Warriors by any means, I'm asking for Death Knights being able to generate the snap threat that Druids, Paladins, and Warriors are capable of.


    Edit: Realize I'm talking about top end DPS here, nothing under 4.8k as a benchmark.


    My biggest concern with some of the replies:
    Hevy reliance on rune strike.
    So what if we are reliant on an ablity that is buffed by bos, every tanking class is that atm and its getting changed in the future anyway.
    What's the matter with being reliant on Rune Strike? When you can't Rune Strike due to lack of RP, a string of hits not being avoided, or other circumstances, your threat ranges from mediocre to terrible, very rarely reaching minimally acceptable. Warriors rely on Heroic Strike pretty heavily, Death Knights rely on Rune Strike so much that our inability to perform the ability renders our threat inferior to about anything. I don't care if we have a primary threat ability, I'm fine with it in fact, but when your primary ability has about a 30% uptime without Blessing of Sanctuary, that raises the hairs on the back of my neck.


    Edit2: Also, BB doesn't actually work unless you get a disease on an add, as Sarth just immunes off you BB, leaving your Blood Rune unspent. Same for Pestilence, it fails to consume your Blood Rune unless a disease is applied to an additional mob.
    Last edited by Entry; 02-06-2009 at 03:35 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entry View Post
    Edit2: Also, BB doesn't actually work unless you get a disease on an add, as Sarth just immunes off you BB, leaving your Blood Rune unspent. Same for Pestilence, it fails to consume your Blood Rune unless a disease is applied to an additional mob.
    IDK about you Entry, but I had no problem burning my blood runes using pest. Also, you can still debuff him through the shield (IT comes up as immune, but it still places the FF dot/debuff on him, which is why I think BB "might" work) so you dont need to put an add on you at all.

    Heres what it boils down too. DKs have no burst threat on demand. My biggest threat move is something that I have little to no control over and cant use half the time due to RP. The different between how HS and RS work is that HS is there to maintain a long term TPS, not for burst threat. Warriors use SS, Rev, Conc Blow just to name a few of there very high threat moves. IMO, they either need to raise the threat mod on frost presence or give us a rune threat move. I think its totally stupid that I use the same abilities as a DPSer and a Tank (other than RS). This is the problem with blizz philosophy of making all the DK trees viable for everything. IMO that is crap. If I want to tank as a DK, give me a tree dedicated to it, moves dedicated to it, and apporiate CDs. I dont want 3 tank specs that have to be balanced with each other and other classes, I just want one to be balanced agaisnt others. In the min/max game that it still is, DKs will be punished for having to many "viable" specs.

    Dont get me wrong, DK tanks are doing fine and its only in these extreme min/max cases that we see the problems, but theses problems will be more glaring as the content gets harder and the real raiding begins.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  19. #19
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    Domiria

    Domira... that has to be one of the, if not the worst rotations I have ever heard of. Ill assume that the people you run Naxx with are around your gear level, and sure for where you guys are that works fine..... Do not expect it to stay that way.

    Your threat is terrible without DnD because you don't have KM... post 3.0.8 KM is considered Baseline in frost tanking.

    Also if your going to pick up Annihilation you may as well pick up Epidemic. You'll see a huge benefit in your threat in that manner which will only scale once you grab Sigil of Awareness.

    Picking up Rune Tap dictates you to have it properly glyphed for raid utility.... but even then I wouldn't suggest it.

    I run Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Give or take a few talents...

    With BoS (don't even get me started on that) I spike to about 10k tps. Sustain at 8k on patch. 6k sustained TPS is fine but if you are MTing you will only be throttling your OT's DPS / TPS and gimping their rotation.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    18
    On a side note the one ability I want that a DK has is deathgrip. I'd give up shockwave to turn my taunt into a deathgrip, and I'm a man that loves my shockwave.
    Deal.... Ill take another AoE w/ Stun to give up DG....

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