what are you going to bring instead? why not bring one?
I posted this on the official Warrior forums, but I'm reposting it here because I imagine there is a different sample of opinions to draw on. There have certainly been a few interesting posts, but Daemondred's post on the second page echoes some of the doubts I had.
Here is the link to the original thread:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Fury: Why bring one?
Allow me to preface my question by stating that I am being absolutely sincere. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious.
That being said, what is appealing about bringing a Fury warrior (really, a DPS warrior) to a raid? I honestly do not see it. Yes, they can yield good DPS, though so can pure DPS classes; the difference is that the pure DPS classes usually have threat dumps to mitigate the danger that damage output generates. I suppose in a 25-man raid it might make a little bit more sense, if only for the sake of having a more diverse raid composition, but even so the non-stacking buffs kind of seem to reduce the overall appeal.
Again, I'm not slamming Fury/Arms warriors. I just don't see the comparative merit and I genuinely would like to hear some valid arguments to enlighten me.
what are you going to bring instead? why not bring one?
Are you talking purely about raid buffs? If you don't have a prot warrior, they can keep commanding shout and thunderclap/demo shout up for your tanks (or even if you do have a warrior tank, save the tank burning gcd's on these abilities). The rampage crit buff to the raid is nice... I mean, I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for here, like any other class since wrath there is very little unique that any class brings to a raid. Most fury warriors are tearing up the charts right now though, which to me is as good enough reason as anyway - good players get a raid spot.
In all seriousness, the need to perfectly optimize a raid seems to have passed. While you still want everyone focused and doing their best, it's not like it really matters. In my guild, the answer would be... "Because if we have a fury tank, he's a friend of ours and we'd want to raid with him... why else would you bring anyone?"
I can't speak at all for 25 man, but for 10 man odd group makeups don't seem to really be a big deal. Last night was a good example... In our 10 man Naxx we had two protection warriors, a druid tank and two arms warriors. It was a cakewalk.
In reply to "Why bring a fury warrior?", I have been specced prot for about half of my playing time and also fury, which is my specc now. I believe the best reason to bring along a fury warrior is that even though your caster classes do usually put out more DPS, even though I'm running about the same amount as our mages, if something goes wrong, per say a tank goes down that they can actually grab a mob or boss and have some survivability to get a battle rezz up where a clothie is not going to be able to handle but about 1 to 2 hits and they are down. I have my shield on a macro and have had to pop it on and switch to defensive stance many times to prevent a wipe. Sometimes, it's not how much DPS your group is putting out, it is how they survive to put that DPS out. But that's just my opinion.
Well Fury warriors do bring the best HP increasing buff in the game, so that's at least one reason. However, they do good DPS as well and can offtank as needed (at least we use our fury warriors to OT in a lot of cases).
However, honestly very little of that matters, you typically don't bring 'fury warriors', but you bring 'Maullus' because he does good dps and is a stand up player.
Perhaps, as Avyla commented, my thinking is a bit out-dated. As I said, Daemondred's post encapsulated some of my concerns rather well; for example,
To reiterate, I am not, in any way, attacking Fury warriors or suggesting that they do not contribute to a raid. They apparently deal a very large amount of damage. I am just looking at it from a risk:reward perspective; do the advantages of bringing a Fury Warrior out-weigh the disadvantages? Do they offer something either a) unique, or b) not unique but of such high value that they are wise to take instead of another class?Originally Posted by Daemondred
I think the person was asking why bring a fury warrior when 9 out of 10 times they're nothing but dead. Seriously.. until fury get some sort of rage dump they can never operate at capacity and are gimped with healers letting them die because they pulled aggro/too much hate.
They need to seriously give fury warriors something so they can "bow down" and manage their threat rather then be left for dead.. just my 2 cents
i think its less about raid mechanics as a group and more about the issues of fury warriors who outgear an instance and end up dying.. a lot..
Because you bring good players to your raid. If said fury warrior is a better player than your rogue then you bring the warrior. The final dps number at the end of fight is not always the only way to judge performance.
What honest-to-<insert diety here> disadvantages do fury warriors have? As a spec: they bring good dps, they bring Commanding Shout, they can move out of fire as good as anybody else.
Sure they have no "on demand" threat drop, but is that really an issue? Never once has any of our dps warriors (one of which I've been playing wow with for 4 years now, so he'll tell me straight) said "Ridly, I'm having to hold back my dps cause your threat sucks" I don't give him vigilance, I usually give that to the dps DKs to boost my AoE threat on trash. So I'd say that as long as the tanks know what their doing with threat, it's not an issue for the dps warrior.
To be bluntly honest, I don't really understand all these "why are they going to bring me to the raid X class is better at Y than my Z?" type posts. If you really are finding yourself asking that question, odds are you're not doing something right to show you are equally as viable as the next guy, raid utility buffs or not. If you understand your class, understand your spec, and understand how to gear, and understand the fights,then you're going to get a raid spot in your guild because you are contributing to the greater good. And really that's all it boils down to these days when building a raid.
Sure a perfect guild with perfect tank and perfect healers can mitigate some of the fury threat but its far from a solution to their problems. You would be hard pressed to find a fury warrior that won't complain about it and even more so hard pressed to find a fury warrior that blames their "heat" on a bad tank.
Perhaps everyone on my realm does suck, who knows.. but its a crock of bs to blame the tank for something that every other class has some control over of which HUMAN DPS WARRIORS HAVE NONE.
A well geared fury warrior is probably sitting out most of his combos to keep this threat low unless he's up against a boss. Even then i see more dead fury warriors in every group than anyone else.
just my experience.
I appreciate the replies so far, thank you. I will say that I've tried to be clear and polite, and that I don't really appreciate the tone of a couple posts. I did not find this issue to be clearly addressed in any of the numerous posts on Fury warriors, stickied or otherwise, but if this is a sensitive subject... sorry?
I'm not a fury warrior. I have never been a fury warrior. I'm not seeking some kind of affirmation or validation. I had a question that may have been tainted by older raiding perspectives. The second part of my previous post was elaborating on how I was looking at things, not asking for someone to support something that I just admitted was incorrect. I am genuinely looking to be edified. Please don't take that as a threat.
Again, I'm not threatening the value of the class or spec, I'm simply asking for folks to elaborate on the relative merits of it.
Keeping threat is a tanks job. I hope to god you dont form your raids to down trash, instead you focus on boss killing. If your tanks cant hold threat off a fury warrior on a boss, you need new tanks. There is zero reason right now for a dps to pull off a tank threat wise, even without a dump. Improved Berserker Stance - Spell - World of Warcraft is a built in threat reduce that all fury warriors should have. Note thats something that arms warriors don't have. Also by being in Zerker stance you have a 20% threat reduce just for being in that stance. So thats a passive 30% threat reduce, how much of a passive reduce do other classes get... lets see, they dont, so they have a threat dump ability.
Now on a side note, if your fury warriors are threat capped and they are pulling threat, thats their fault along with the tanks fault. Tank needs to generate more threat and the dps needs to maintain their agro.
Great tanks can pull out every trick in the book but if they're out geared by insane fury warriors then i guess its the tanks fault eh? As a class fury warriors have it the worst when it comes to threat dumping. You can't dispute that.
Your missing the point entirely. Its not my guild (which has no problem)nore me (i have no problem) but a general complaint of fury warriors. Period.Now on a side note, if your fury warriors are threat capped and they are pulling threat, thats their fault along with the tanks fault. Tank needs to generate more threat and the dps needs to maintain their agro.
If fury warriors didn't have these problems then they wouldn't be so rare. I could count how many fury warriors are on my server and the bulk of them are only fury because of the excess tank supply and their wanting of raid time.
Fury warriors rare? That is a new one on me. We currently raid with 2 dps warriors and with as many as 4 if we need to fill the spots.
My last 25 man had 7 of them, and not one of them came within 25% of me on threat. But i guess their 3.5k dps means they are under geared by your "insane" standards. And if you have an under geared tank that cant hold threat, thats the tanks fault for staying under geared. Not the DPS's fault for gearing out their char.
Lawl, what is going on here. No dps class has ever pulled threat off me on a single target after i've got 1 revenge in.
And yes, 3.5k dps is quite low. 5-6k is about average now for naxx 25 guilds.
ability to OT trash/small boss adds by carrying a def set
and we look f-ing awesome with TG.