Higher DPS or Higher Damage? Whats the dilly?
Ok.. so this week i finally paid attention to tanking with a DK who was an OT and noticed something odd. The DK hits ~2.0k DPS no problem but only does 300k damage over all. Me and my ~1-1.5k dps does over 550k damage over all. (VoA)
When people speak of DPS of tanks, are they merely pushing the limits of DPS as a peak number or are they more concerned with dmg output? I mean i hear people swear left and right high dps = faster boss death but if you look at my recount my crappy dps means faster boss death because i'm doing more damage.
Not sure how it works out but it happened twice and both our recounts caught it. Does a DK do something differently in its swings/hits where there is spellcast time or something that results in lower damage vs my swings/cooldowns?
If he has high dps but low overall damage, it simply means that he was not active for the whole duration.
That can happen by:
1. He was AFK at the start
2. He died at some point during the fight.
DPS stands for "damage per second" but it needs to be averaged for the duration of the fight, otherwise it just shows damage peaks whenever you push a button.
Edit: Let's say fight takes exactly 3minutes, with 300k damage done that averages to ~1600dps for duration of the fight. With 500k damage done average is ~2700dps.
It was VoA - he probably had more aggro then i did since he was mad the group leader called him an off tank
Originally Posted by Crommi
I was grabbed and thrown twice - he was going all out with all the crazy stuff DK's do anyway.
no sleeping on the job/afk or missing buttons.
Just seems odd i see this in multiple areas.. heck, even in 5 mans i can out "Damage" dps'ers even though their dps is much higher. And this is usually on zerg runs where i keep a close eye on the healer to make sure we won't OOM so dps is going absolutely crazy
Expanding on what Crommi said. If the DK did 2k dps and a total of 300k dmg, it means he was active for 150 seconds. If you did 1.5k dps and a total of 550k dmg, it means you were active for 367 seconds. A more important question then is why was he active for less than half the time you were active?
DPS is not used as a "peak" measure, it is generaly (but not always) used as a measure for sustained damage output, this means it is more relevant over longer periods of time. And that's what dps should be aiming for, being able to sustain dps over an entire boss fight.
I'm just wondering if there is something that they are doing to inflate DPS but lower dmg - could it be that when people brag about there dps they're doing specific combos that give them huge peaks but at the cost of lower damage?
Only reason i ask is many pugs are hell bent on dps.. not a problem within my guild but just thought it was strange.
You can inflate your dps by reducing the active time, and using cooldowns during that time. For instance, if you only do damage for 1 minute, but during that minute you get heroism/bloodlust, use a haste pot, and any other damage increasing skills.
The reason why ppl focus on DPS more than total damage is because total damage will always be the same as your targets health. What's relevant is how fast you can eat through the targets health.
blahism, i think you missed crommi's point.
the tank starts the fight. say your fighting for 8 sec of "in combat" on a trash pack. the dps starts 2 secs after you.
example 1 - say everyone does the same damage (not DPS). total damage would be the same for everyone, but your DPS would be 1/4 less then everyone elses. your damage/8secs, other's damage/6secs.
example 2 - say your uber and the dps is slacking, everyone does the same DPS. meters would say DPS's are equal, but your damage is 133% of everyone elses. your DPSx8secs, thier DPSx6secs.
after a while, over a whole run these seconds here and there add up.
the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. you're doing less dps, but spend more time in combat. your bigger total damage comes from the damage you did before he started in on each fight. if everyone started at the same time the DPS ranking would be the same as the damage ranking. But your mage would be tanking.
the meters are based on each toon's "in combat" time.
when people talk about getting more DPS out of their tank, their also talking about getting more total damage. the tank will still be in combat longer than anyone else.
Thats what makes no sense of the data I have. How could a boss die quicker if the total dmg from higher dps tanks is worse than mine? Dmg reduces the life of the tank - DPS is just a measure of damage per second.
Originally Posted by Molohk
How is DPS calculated?
In This specific VoA DPS of 2.5k plus only had about 50k more damage than my 1.01k dps and about 150k more dmg than the OT did which had about 2k dps registered.
perhaps i'm looking to far into it. If all you see is a DPS meter then i'm usually pretty low but if you look at the dmg side of things i'm doing more than holding my weight.
The easiest way to figure this out is that the next time you run it, capture the log and do a WWS. See how that compares to your meters.
An alternate issue is that a lot of meters have trouble with DK pets (including WWS). Maybe there is a descrepency in how DPS is calculated versus total damage on that meter and that is the difference. A WWS comparison to the meter would clear that up since, even bugged, you could compare them to see what is read differently.
DPS should be calculated simply by dividing the total damage done by the number of seconds of dps activity. The first variable (damage) is pretty straight forward, but the second variable (time) may be measured in different ways.
Like Jere pointed out, a WWS report would be very useful. But the fact remains that you can't just look blindly at DPS without taking other variable into consideration. If your guild refuses to see any of the other variables, you'll have to draw their attention to other variables as uptime, % of raid damage, and total damage.
Its not my guild thats raising concerns, just general attitudes and pugs and after getting some preliminary data i'm curious if higher dps is actually better than higher dmg since the two appear to be unrelated. If someone asks me how much dps i do as part of getting into the pug and i say 1k and the dk says 2k they're going to chose the 2k dps over me no matter how much i try and convince them my "Damage output is higher" because it doesn't make sense.
perhaps a fluke. i'll give it a whirl on our next raids and see how it panns out.
Perhaps warriors have better "uptime" in dmg than dk's but dk's appear to have more dps.. dunno what it is.
i'll run wws on the next combat log.. just odd that multiple recounts saw the same isuses.. not sure wws would be any more reliable with its own faults as of lately.
DPS = DAMAGE PER SECOND. Is this guy a troll?
Dks Do MORE dps than prot warriors, its a given fact.
The question is, why did you do more OVERALL damage, did that dk die early?
If not, your dps meters are wrong and you need to update them.
If you and a dk are in combat for the same amount of time say 100seconds, 2700dps will equal 270,000 damage, and 1000dps will equal 100,000 damage, meaning you did LESS damage than him.
This is like grade 2 math here.
You just slammed the guy, and then pretty much asked the same question.
Originally Posted by greendragonempire
Naw, i'm wondering why his overall damage is higher, and the only reason is, the dk exited combat early .. I'm wondering why.
Originally Posted by dyls
And I'm not slamming him, but 5 people have given him replies, yet he is not getting it.
i spent an hour looking for this
Recount's current author's definition of time
you and the DK were in combat for different amounts of time, on each and every fight, the differences add up.
Last edited by Doc309; 02-04-2009 at 04:26 PM.
if your using recount switch from damage done and check activity there should a difference there. your lower dps should have you being more active and the dk being less active givin him higher dps and less damageand hes probably less active in order for you to have significant threat over him in order to not pull off of you or somethin of that nature
The OP listed 300k and 550k as total damage done by each, and the OP has more than twice the active time the DK has. The sample is too small for this to be a case of "differences adding up", unfortunatelly I can't really come up with a logical explanation without knowing how the OP measured DPS, or what both of them were duing during the measured time.
Originally Posted by Doc309
Thanks for the digging! I was looking for something like this.
Originally Posted by Doc309
@ Joun -- yvw
@molohk -- you're making a guess at what recount ( the OP said they both used recount ) counted as each toons active time was by dividing total damage done /DPS.
DPS in recount is an average. ie when a 'lock casts a DoT, dies, as long as his DoT is ticking recount counts this as being active time, bringing the 'lock's DPS average way down...
any meter is best used to compare your numbers to your numbers, or another toon of the same class in the same role using the same meter.
Last edited by Doc309; 02-04-2009 at 10:59 PM.
Thanks for the discussion, it has cleared up my confusion too. I'm always high in total raid damage, but always a lot lower in the recount dps ranking. It makes sense that I spend more time in combat, but at a lower dps, and thus manage to have high total raid damage. Interestingly, I'm consistently #1 in the activity chart in recount. This would support the theory - I'm just in active combat more of the time than anyone else in the raid, which is why my total raid damage is usually so high.