Closed Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 80

Thread: What exactly can us warriors do best?

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    26
    Doing Sarth +3 tonight with my guild as I am tanking the first drake the first round I hear over vent "I'm gaining agro, what are you doing?" What I was doing is the same thing I always do and that 99% of all prot spec warrior tanks out there do. Ended up having to spam taunt and wiped (guild first attempt) before I totally lost control of the mob. Next time around I vigilanced the person complaing about threat (saw them coming up on omen) and instead of trying to keep it off them it was someone else I was trying to keep it from the next time.

    I have done the 26+ expertise soft cap/cap (I RARELY see Dodges/Parries from mobs if ever) and have had my hit rating up to 245 and rarely missed. Abilites never miss and I have the same rotation that 99% of all warrior tanks have all basically come up with. Spec is nearly the same but I can't even come close to the druid/DK/Paladin tanks in the guilds on threat. In boss encounters where I have been a MT they have had to scale back on dps just to not grab agro away from me, even after misdirects have been sent my way.

    I have followed all the advice I have read and input from others and it never seems I can top more than a constant 3k TPS. I will spike up to 5-6k TPS every now and than but that is when doing the quick burst items we have (heroic throw + concussion blow) that we only get to use every 30/60 seconds. We sit here spamming 4+ buttons while the pallies hit two tops half the time.

    I am just about to the point of totally quitting the warrior until something is done, because reading stuff like this tells me I am not alone. The other tanks in the gear and I all have nearly equal gear and evasion, and the killer part is when comparing gear to the pally is that I have MORE hit and expertise than he does and he has no issues with the threat. Only big diff between us both is he has Last Laugh and I am useing Red Sword of Courage, but you can't tell me that makes up a 2k TPS difference.


    Prot Warriors right now are jack of all trades, master of none. The small part of us that are actually Prot should just respec to fury like 90% of the other warriors out there because it seems that their new main role is just to DPS anymore.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkonn View Post
    I guess I just feel like I am busting ass trying to keep to my rotation, especially in AOE tanking, and I'm getting completely owned by what feels like the push of one button by pallys/DKs/Druids. They all have what seems to be one move that they can spam over and over to achieve the same result while I have to maintain a rotation of Thunderclap/Shockwave/Cleave(glyphed for the extra target), in that particular order, while tabbing between mobs to lay down shield slams, revenges, and taunts to keep AOE groups together... Even then, they STILL pass me in threat.
    I dunno exactly for Pal and drood but as Dk you are totally wrong here; we dont have any move than we can spam actually and are highly dependent on rotation (a lot more than war) to get a good agro. Our only moves with high threat are Runestrike (that can be used only after we parry/dodge) and Death and Decay (who use 3 runes and got a 30/15 sec CD); far from being spammable.

    That being said, I think war are not pointed as best in something simply because they are the reference; we seem to always compare other classes to war in term of tanking.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Randers, Denmark.
    Posts
    42
    Working on sartharion + all his friends with my guild atm, and so far then i've tryed tanking every encounter succesfully as a prot warrior.
    ofc there are encounters that lean more towards a DK/pala/druid (sartharion and all his friends i.e), but that still dont make prot warriors useless.

    i have several times pulled agro from the current MT as OT (PW and laggius i.e), so our general tps isent really a problem imo.

    we got some very nice single target threat (doing 5k steady tps np, can do 8-9k on freak situations). (holding drakes on sartharion while they're being bombed with upto 80k raid dps, and i'm using my EH/avoidance set)
    our aoe tanking skills are enough to place us just under a pala tank.
    we bring several usefull tools to the raid (vigilance, demo shout, TC, sunder, comm shout, intervens etc etc).
    dps... well, i'm not concerned about my dps if i'm not tanking. i dont raid to dps, i raid to tank, and doing so that the dps can do their job while i do mine.

    so in general i'm pleased at what blizz did for prot warriors in 3.0, we're still one of the best tank in general (imo) out there.
    Last edited by Loon; 02-04-2009 at 11:14 PM.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,630
    Quote Originally Posted by Nale View Post
    Doing Sarth +3 tonight with my guild as I am tanking the first drake the first round I hear over vent "I'm gaining agro, what are you doing?" What I was doing is the same thing I always do and that 99% of all prot spec warrior tanks out there do. Ended up having to spam taunt and wiped (guild first attempt) before I totally lost control of the mob. Next time around I vigilanced the person complaing about threat (saw them coming up on omen) and instead of trying to keep it off them it was someone else I was trying to keep it from the next time.

    I have done the 26+ expertise soft cap/cap (I RARELY see Dodges/Parries from mobs if ever) and have had my hit rating up to 245 and rarely missed. Abilites never miss and I have the same rotation that 99% of all warrior tanks have all basically come up with. Spec is nearly the same but I can't even come close to the druid/DK/Paladin tanks in the guilds on threat. In boss encounters where I have been a MT they have had to scale back on dps just to not grab agro away from me, even after misdirects have been sent my way.

    I have followed all the advice I have read and input from others and it never seems I can top more than a constant 3k TPS. I will spike up to 5-6k TPS every now and than but that is when doing the quick burst items we have (heroic throw + concussion blow) that we only get to use every 30/60 seconds. We sit here spamming 4+ buttons while the pallies hit two tops half the time.

    I am just about to the point of totally quitting the warrior until something is done, because reading stuff like this tells me I am not alone. The other tanks in the gear and I all have nearly equal gear and evasion, and the killer part is when comparing gear to the pally is that I have MORE hit and expertise than he does and he has no issues with the threat. Only big diff between us both is he has Last Laugh and I am useing Red Sword of Courage, but you can't tell me that makes up a 2k TPS difference.


    Prot Warriors right now are jack of all trades, master of none. The small part of us that are actually Prot should just respec to fury like 90% of the other warriors out there because it seems that their new main role is just to DPS anymore.
    If you honestly cannot keep aggro over people in a raid as a warrior, the problem is you, not the class. Do you have a parse of that night's raids?
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by Nale View Post
    Doing Sarth +3 tonight with my guild as I am tanking the first drake the first round I hear over vent "I'm gaining agro, what are you doing?" What I was doing is the same thing I always do and that 99% of all prot spec warrior tanks out there do. Ended up having to spam taunt and wiped (guild first attempt) before I totally lost control of the mob. Next time around I vigilanced the person complaing about threat (saw them coming up on omen) and instead of trying to keep it off them it was someone else I was trying to keep it from the next time.

    I have done the 26+ expertise soft cap/cap (I RARELY see Dodges/Parries from mobs if ever) and have had my hit rating up to 245 and rarely missed. Abilites never miss and I have the same rotation that 99% of all warrior tanks have all basically come up with. Spec is nearly the same but I can't even come close to the druid/DK/Paladin tanks in the guilds on threat. In boss encounters where I have been a MT they have had to scale back on dps just to not grab agro away from me, even after misdirects have been sent my way.

    I have followed all the advice I have read and input from others and it never seems I can top more than a constant 3k TPS. I will spike up to 5-6k TPS every now and than but that is when doing the quick burst items we have (heroic throw + concussion blow) that we only get to use every 30/60 seconds. We sit here spamming 4+ buttons while the pallies hit two tops half the time.

    I am just about to the point of totally quitting the warrior until something is done, because reading stuff like this tells me I am not alone. The other tanks in the gear and I all have nearly equal gear and evasion, and the killer part is when comparing gear to the pally is that I have MORE hit and expertise than he does and he has no issues with the threat. Only big diff between us both is he has Last Laugh and I am useing Red Sword of Courage, but you can't tell me that makes up a 2k TPS difference.


    Prot Warriors right now are jack of all trades, master of none. The small part of us that are actually Prot should just respec to fury like 90% of the other warriors out there because it seems that their new main role is just to DPS anymore.
    To be fair, I don't think anyone is really complaining about single target TPS. In fact, I think that's one area where we really shine (unless rage starved). If you're doing everything while hit/exp capped and still can't hold aggro on a single mob, something is going very wrong.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    If you want raid utility, you have it. Saying X or Y can bring it, is nice and all, but the whole point is that we get away from class Z being the only class that can bring a particular buff. If you want to go down that road, then you have Commanding shout. 2250-2800ish HPs is simply amazing, and it does make a difference in progression. I have definitely had my health drop below that mark many times, so without that buff, we would have been wiping a bunch more. It is an amazing buff, don't downplay it. If it doesn't fit your argument, that is ok. There is nothing wrong with asking for more utility, but totally dismissing what utility you do have isn't the right way to go about things.
    This is mainly a dps warrior buff though, since they can afford have it Improved. If for some reason you would like to go for perfect buff setup, the only one which is provided by prot warrior in optimal way is Sunder Armor, and warrior must tank to provide it without wasting raid spot. I would say that our utility is lower than other tanks, assuming feral druid and dk as baseline, since paladins and unique buffs is completely different story.
    Where do you get that warriors are doing half the dps of other tanks though? I haven't really seen that in practice and given the many parses posted here at tankspot, it doesn't seem to be the case for others either.

    EDIT: Here is an example parse. Note that Xav did 2200+ DPS over the course of the raid and did 3300+ on patchwerk. Other tanks aren't pulling 4400 and 6600 respectively. The other tanks are going to be in same general vicinity, not twice as high. Shoot, on my naxx run tonight, I pulled 2200 overall and only 2800+ DPS on patchwerk. That's not to say warriors don't need a bump, but it certainly isn't as dismal as "half the dps of other tanks". A lot of it simply boils down to gear and skill.

    Wow Web Stats
    Posting Xav's wws as "an example parse" is not fair. He is probably one of the best warriors in WoW, and so is his guild. His numbers are not average, but top. If you say that other tanks are going to be in the same general vicinity as him, you're admitting we are way below actually.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands
    Posts
    228
    People forget warriors currently are the best all round tanks there are. Excellent evasion, mitigation, good single target threat and burst aoe threat. We don't excel in any field, if you ask me, but as a class we do not suck. (We'd be runner up on the list in all fields I guess... and we'll scale pretty well in some areas)

    And I agree with many others here. I want to be brought to the raid because I'm thought of as an asset to the tanking squad. (I'll let the qualified people handle that one)

    On current content there seriously should not be any aggro problems, if you do, double check your rotations/buffs and so on.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Posting Xav's wws as "an example parse" is not fair. He is probably one of the best warriors in WoW, and so is his guild. His numbers are not average, but top. If you say that other tanks are going to be in the same general vicinity as him, you're admitting we are way below actually.
    I get your point about Xav, but the entire thread has warriors of all stripes posting high 2000 to mid 3000 dps.

    I'm not much of a raider, but I haven't seen that many tanks do more dps than I do as a warrior tank. And the ones that do do more than me aren't beating me by a significant margin (something like 10% more or so). But then again I take a lot of pride in my tank dps and actually work at it.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,193
    What a shit thread this is.
    People keep shouting that warriors bring nothing unqiue. And while others post examples of things which make prot-warriors unique people just continue whining: we're not unique, we don't bring anything extra.

    Mobility, sunders armor, thunderclap shockwave are pretty unique, vigilance, intervene ,shieldbash. In an interrupt fight you really want a warrior.
    Yes, every class can tank as good as warriors can but that is by design. It is good to at last get rid of that bad batch of warriors and who were defaulted tank by class and not by skill.

    Yes, I would like some more dps but I don't feel inferior. If you're not the main tank, or don't get a tanking position in guild it's easy to blame the class, but maybe i's yourself that's the failure.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    7
    As a warrior tank the one thing I think i do better then any other tank class is chain pull which is really a crappy niche to be in. With the way warriors are designed we can pull and have most if not all our short cooldowns back up before it's time to pull the next mobs meaning we can just keep going. As for being religated to trash tanks there are really 2 ways to look at it:

    1. Crap I have to collect all the BS trash to tank, while so and so gets the glory.

    or

    2. I know I can tank boss X but I also know I can pick up all the trash running around better then the pally/dk tanks.

    Sadly its often the off tanks that have the real challange in a boss fight as most bosses just kinda stand there while you tank em spaming rotations occasionally straifing to reposition. The real trick and where you can shine as an off tank is when you have enough threat on untauntable bosses as an off tank that you gain agro when the MT dies from healer or their error. Twice now I have saved raids as OT on widow fight when the MT went down and I snatched up the boss and continued to tank it along with the other 3-5 adds to continue on and down the boss.

    I guess it just comes down to perspective, but ultimately the classes are close enough I don't see myself getting replaced anytime soon even if the guild does let someone else tank bosses on occasion. Who knows might actually be fun to pull out some TG once duel spec is an option.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    What a shit thread this is.
    People keep shouting that warriors bring nothing unqiue. And while others post examples of things which make prot-warriors unique people just continue whining: we're not unique, we don't bring anything extra.
    Because we are NOT. We are good at practically every single aspect of tanking, but not best at any. WoW always been more about specialisation than versatility, having a shaman you should realize that.
    Mobility, sunders armor, thunderclap shockwave are pretty unique, vigilance, intervene ,shieldbash. In an interrupt fight you really want a warrior.
    Mobility? We excel at it, but its not needed. Sunder armor? Other people can do it. Thunderclap, shockwave - why would anyone want those, if other classes have superior tools for aoe aggro? Same about Vigilance, or Intervene. Shield Bash? Dpsers can interrupt, and have less trouble with it. Yes, we can do LOTS of useful things, but none of them is really a reason to bring protection warrior to raid. Paladins bring unique buff, dks superior cds, especially against magic damage, druids bring superior physical mitigation and health pool.
    Yes, every class can tank as good as warriors can but that is by design. It is good to at last get rid of that bad batch of warriors and who were defaulted tank by class and not by skill.
    I really do not believe that in TBC tanks were chosen by class, and not by skill - except for RoS p2, Archimonde and Kael'thas. There were definitely more fights biased against paladins than biased against warriors, but there were plenty of succesful guilds with paladin main tanks, or druid main tanks. I am not saying that things were fair and equal because they were not, but definitely being bad warrior didn't gave anyone mt spot if they were competing with good paladin or good druid. Between equally skilled warrior had advantages, but mostly because of boss designs, and not because of superior class abilities.
    Yes, I would like some more dps but I don't feel inferior. If you're not the main tank, or don't get a tanking position in guild it's easy to blame the class, but maybe i's yourself that's the failure.
    Its very easy to call everyone who has some issues with a state of protection warrior atm "noskilled" or "failure", but I could respond to you taht your fellow non warrior tanks are noskilled and failures, and thats why you do not feel inferior... but such a discussion would be completely pointless.

    Offtopic: how far you are from being unhittable in the set you're wearing in the armory?

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Randers, Denmark.
    Posts
    42
    Sunder armor? Other people can do it.
    yeah, other warriors can do it, but it will ruin their dps if they have to swap stance every 30 sec to refresh sunders, so guess that wont happen.

    Thunderclap, shockwave - why would anyone want those, if other classes have superior tools for aoe aggro
    TC, less dmg taken on bosses i.e making it a fairly nice mitigation tool.
    shock wave, nice tool to have to stun/stop mobs if your taunt is on cd.

    Same about Vigilance, or Intervene.
    vigilance still gives 3% mitigation, so it's still a viable tool to bring.
    intervene, nice tool to have to save a healer if you taunt is on cd.

    Shield Bash? Dpsers can interrupt, and have less trouble with it
    earth shock, gcd affect that, making it less reliable then shield bash which is off the gcd.
    aint sure about kick (havent played my rogue since 3.0 was launched) or pummel (rarely leaves def stance).

    so dont really know where your point is here? as far as i can see we bring a feck load of usefull things to the raid, just like every other tank.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Loon View Post
    Sunder armor? Other people can do it.
    yeah, other warriors can do it, but it will ruin their dps if they have to swap stance every 30 sec to refresh sunders, so guess that wont happen.
    You don't need to swap stance to Sunder... Gcds ain't a problem, only cost is some rage, so I guess losing one HS every 30 seconds won't ruin anyone's dps.
    TC, less dmg taken on bosses i.e making it a fairly nice mitigation tool.
    shock wave, nice tool to have to stun/stop mobs if your taunt is on cd.
    Mitigation tool, which both DKs and paladins do have, without even adjusting their rotation. And if you think that stunning trash mob when taunt is on cd can be really considered an advantage, then I guess Disarm is an advantage too.. But I am not that excited about it, when I see BoSanc or DK's cooldowns.
    Same about Vigilance, or Intervene.
    vigilance still gives 3% mitigation, so it's still a viable tool to bring.
    intervene, nice tool to have to save a healer if you taunt is on cd.
    Vigilance gives 3% mitigation to ONE raid member. BoSanct gives 3% mitigation to TWENTY FIVE raid members. And incredible resource boost to all tanks.
    earth shock, gcd affect that, making it less reliable then shield bash which is off the gcd.
    aint sure about kick (havent played my rogue since 3.0 was launched) or pummel (rarely leaves def stance).
    All other interrupts are off the gcd. It is much easier to manage resources for interupts when dpsing than when tanking.
    so dont really know where your point is here? as far as i can see we bring a feck load of usefull things to the raid, just like every other tank.
    We do bring a lot of useful things, yes. But every single one of them can be replaced by something better or equal. Also when it comes to our personal abilities, there are none which can't be provided by other tanks or other raid members. Spell reflect is potentially very strong ability and very unique too, but it doesn't work on almost anything in WotLK. There is only one answer I have to OP's question, and that is mobility - sadly, I value mitigation, tps, dps and utility above it, and we do not excel at any of those.
    Last edited by Hengist; 02-05-2009 at 05:40 AM.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    All other interrupts are off the gcd. It is much easier to manage resources for interupts when dpsing than when tanking.
    Nowm you've lost me, suddenly we need to be compared to dps-ing classes also?

    Managing resources for shield bash hard? Wake up, tanks haven't got tps issues so for warriortanks it should be easiest of all classes to save up a little bit of rage for that hard needed interrupt.
    For dps-ers,it lowers their dps and severely destroys their rotation for healers it hampers their healing. Prot warriors are the ideal class for interupting.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Nowm you've lost me, suddenly we need to be compared to dps-ing classes also?
    I'm just saying that from the raid's point of view, its not really an advantage to have tank on interrupt duty, because dpsers can do it fine.
    Managing resources for shield bash hard? Wake up, tanks haven't got tps issues so for warriortanks it should be easiest of all classes to save up a little bit of rage for that hard needed interrupt.
    For dps-ers,it lowers their dps and severely destroys their rotation for healers it hampers their healing. Prot warriors are the ideal class for interupting.
    Depends what we are talking about - if were talking in general, nobody said we will always have twice as much threat as dpsers, quite the opposite, if it will change things can only get harder. In TBC it was harder to keep the rage for interrupts and push threat at the same time.

    If we are talking about current content, tehn KT is the only example - and then you are right, it is more beneficial to ahve prot warrior to interrupt tahn dpsers. But it still matters so little, its a miniscule advantage in a single fight, still absolutely nothing compared to Dk's CDs, bear's armor and health and paladin's BoSanct.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    248
    Your overstating things like warriors are jack of all trades. That is a plus! Not a negative!

    How many progression guilds lead with a warrior MT? Why? Because we can adapt and work with any situation, and while we may not specialize in it, we can GET IT DONE.

    As far as comparing min/max numbers, that's silly. In terms of how good of a tank you are is biased based on a few things, most notably, THE PLAYER!

    The warrior is the most versatile tank out there, and while yes I think our numbers while NOT tanking need some work, we still bring some very helpful things to the raid.

    Commanding shout to name the most prevalent, especially for 10's. The only other class in the game has a similar buff is a warlock's imp, and ours ALWAYS overrides theirs.

    Sunders, prot warriors are the only ones who use em.

    The thing you have to remember is that by class design, every class has a strength and a weakness, and all of the weakness's can be overcome by player skill.

    A palies weakness is generally single target duration threat, IMO.
    A druids is AoE tanking, again IMO.
    A DK's is multiple mobs, when they have CD's down, and their snap threat.

    All weakness's can be overcome by overgearing and/or skill.

    Warriors, honestly, DO NOT HAVE A WEAKNESS, again IMO. We do all things very up to par.

    As a last note, you have to remember we're in the very beginning of this expac. In BC, bears were OP in the begin, and we all evened out a bit.

    Warriors also you have to remember are probably the most gear dependent tanks, with DK's being 2nd, and bears being the least, and palies thrown in there somewhere.

    With that said, as I KEEP saying, we're on the first tier of shields! The gap to DK's and druid's is going to close by the time we hit tier 9 gear levels, as the DR comes harder into play, and the shields are bringing our armor closer. DK's are limited in threat by GCD's, druids are gonna have some hard DR returns on dodge, palies are still limited as always by mana and the dependancy to be healed.

    Give it time.

    PS. Your forgetting that warriors have an innate Damage Reduction of 10% built into their def stance. Bears have bonus armor/hp, palies have bonus threat, DK's have bonus armor, we're the only one that gets a straight up 10% damage mitigation on ALL sourcces of damage, that is not subject to diminishing returns. This will become even more prevalent and may potentially push us into the top in ALL situations at the top gear levels.

    GIVE IT TIME!
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist
    Vigilance gives 3% mitigation to ONE raid member. BoSanct gives 3% mitigation to TWENTY FIVE raid members. And incredible resource boost to all tanks.
    Vigilance also transfers threat where BoSanc does not. They are different abilities that provide different utility that just happen to have one thing in common. You use vigilance for threat reason and BoSanc for resource generation. The damage reduction is pretty much bonus compared to their main functions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    This is mainly a dps warrior buff though, since they can afford have it Improved. If for some reason you would like to go for perfect buff setup, the only one which is provided by prot warrior in optimal way is Sunder Armor, and warrior must tank to provide it without wasting raid spot. I would say that our utility is lower than other tanks, assuming feral druid and dk as baseline, since paladins and unique buffs is completely different story.
    So what? If you bring a prot warrior, he will most often be doing Commanding Shout unless you bring 4+ paladins. If you bring less than that many paladins, then the dps warrior will be doing BS (if you really are trying to maximize buffs). The title of this thread is not about specifically tanks and while the OP definitely seems focused on the tanking aspect, this thread has already delved into the DPS realm as well. This is about warriors as a class, and warriors, as a class, bring Commanding Shout, plain and simple. It's why you would bring a prot warrior. Shoot, just this week we discussing swapping out one of out tanks to get a prot warrior in for Sarth 3D so we could have Commanding Shout. Even unimproved, it is better than BP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Posting Xav's wws as "an example parse" is not fair. He is probably one of the best warriors in WoW, and so is his guild. His numbers are not average, but top. If you say that other tanks are going to be in the same general vicinity as him, you're admitting we are way below actually.
    No it is a totally fair example. It shows what the warrior is capable of. People complain about how they can't do DPS because it is a failing of the class. If it was a failing of the class, then Xav couldn't do it nor could the other guys up there. Just cause the average warrior can't do it, doesn't mean that warriors suck, it means that the average warrior simply isn't skilled enough (or in some cases geared). It isn't a failing of the class in that respect, but of the player. Now you might could possibly argue that warriors are harder to master than paladins in terms of DPS, and that might be a valid argument, but "warriors do half the dps of other classes" is total untruth. Don't get me wrong, I am all for warriors getting a nudge, but I think a few of you are blowing the situation a bit out of proportion. If buffs are needed, then great, buffs are needed. However, warriors are not in a fail boat status currently, so we shouldn't be acting like the sky is falling and saying untrue things like "warriors do 1/2 the dps of other tanks".

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    If you honestly cannot keep aggro over people in a raid as a warrior, the problem is you, not the class. Do you have a parse of that night's raids?
    Personally Xav, I'd prefer to not see the discussion go the route of TPS.

    Single target TPS has really been trivialized in tanking WotLK. If you have a tank, you can just drop your face on the keyboard, slide it across, and hold threat over your DPSers. If not, you're doing something incredibly wrong(wrong spec, or wrong gearing, etc).

    What I'm really getting at in this thread is all about utility, and overall DPS. By Blizzard making all classes equal on all single target TPS, assuming equally-skilled players as a raid leader you will start picking your tanks based on utility.

    It's common knowledge that within a 25-man raid, you more than likely will have a Paladin with blessing of might. This is a 30-minute buff that can be applied and is the equivalent to warriors' battle shout, not to mention it overrides it. So let's remove battle shout from our list of raid utility due to the fact that any raiding guild with half a brain will have someone spec'd for this.

    This leaves us with a raid-wide buff of Commanding shout. 2255 extra health, raid-wide. Sounds great! Must be applied once every 2 minutes, but that's not a gamebreaker for us tanks.

    Unfortunately, most of your raids will also have a warlock or two in them with an imp out, which is giving the entire raid an extra 1729 health(with the improved imp which is tier 1 in their talents, easily obtainable). Our Commanding shout WILL override this buff, but unfortunately not stack with it. So overall, your commanding shout is really only giving yourself and everyone around you a boost of: 526 health. 526 health.... Roughly 15% of one TRASH hit.

    Your final 5 pieces of raid utility are as follows:
    Sunder armor: Ends up stacking 5 times to reduce total armor by almost 4,000. How much of a buff does this scale to for the melee DPS? Nifty I suppose, but how much of a DPS increase will this provide given raid bosses armor?

    Thunder clap: Increases the time in between attacks by 20%. How much of a value is this while tanking bosses? Does it really make a huge difference or are we better served using that GCD for something that will provide more threat? Does it apply across the board, to all spells, effects, and attacks? I would imagine instant cast spells and channeled spells would not be increased by this. Personally I don't see any real difference in raids when I use it, given the speed of attacks and how much damage they are putting out(hateful strikes anyone?). Not to mention, it seems the effect does not last as long as the advertized 30 seconds.

    Demoralizing shout: By far I think this may be the most useful of all. It's basically reducing incoming attacks by a good percentage. I can't complain much about it, other than it's on the GCD and it has to be refreshed quite often in fights.

    Disarm: Not to be forgotten, it's a great way to decrease incoming damage. Unforutnately, how many bosses can you realistically use this on in current raid content? Even still, it has about a 17% uptime. Overall for raid utility, pretty useless.

    Shield Wall: Best "Oh shit" button in the game among the tanks. Realistically only usable once per boss fight. May make or break the outcome of a fight if something goes seriously wrong(a.k.a. your healers/dps screwing up something and dying). Great for the boss soft-enrages.

    Do you feel that we bring enough to the table given all of that?

    Does this stack up against BoSanc? Kings? Gift of the Wild? Horn of Winter and the insane magic reduction DKs get? Anti-magic bubble? The ability of druids to dps up to 4k damage when they aren't being hit?

    We're overall the weakest class in DPS, utility, and AOE tanking while compared to all the 3 other classes. The issue is that yes, Blizz decided to level the playing field and give any tank the same ability to single-target tank just as good as anyone else(Which is great, I encourage that mentality). The problem presented now is that since all tanks are equal for bosses, while building a raid your choices for tanks are now boiling down to what? Utility and DPS.

    Need that extra high HP and raid DPS? Druids can tank just as well as that warrior on bosses, can buff the raid more signifigantly, and hey, they can switch forms and get into the 3-4k DPS territory using energy instead of rage. Warriors can do none of above. Looking at fights like thaddius, that is a huge utility. Warriors can..... Go into berserker stance, get dealt 10% more damage, and still only get around 1000-2000 dps? In this same realm, DKs can swap to BP, swap weapons(if you have outfitter you can make it automatically switch weapons), and get a real nice DPS boost. They also can self-heal in their rotation, and they too do not have to rely on rage mechanics, which means if they aren't tanking they can still pump out their rotation no problem. Paladins are closest to us in that they gain mana from tanking. But again, they use mana which can be gained via heals and the passive MP5 being given out by other raiders. By far, we have the worst mechanic for DPSing while out of tanking.

    Want to buff up your tanks big-time? Pallys bring BoSanc and/or Kings to the table. Each last considerably longer than a warrior, and don't get overridden. Overall, they can push their mitigation considerably farther than us with holy shield(puts them in 80% or more mitigation), and they can keep that up almost 100% of the time on bosses.

    Need a tank to eat some magic? Death Knight, enough said. Oh, and they have superior CDs as well.

    I'm just not convinced that warriors aren't getting the shaft as tanking is progressing and changing. More and more you are seeing tanks pushing the damage meters past DPSers, and bringing WAY more to the raid than "Just a tank". Warriors by design are "Just a tank" now, with very limited utility.

    When a raid leader has the choice between any of the 4 tanking classes and knows all the players are top-notch, it's not hard to realize he's not even considering the warrior.
    Last edited by Tarkonn; 02-05-2009 at 07:10 AM.
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    111
    I think the point being made isn't about "choose the player, not the class". Yes, any given raid will pick their most skilled tanks because it's pointless bringing a warrior that doesn't know anything besides apply sunder (hello vanilla WoW), a DK that doesn't know how to manage his rotations, etc.

    The point being made is: If there are 3 or fewer spots for a tank, what would a raid pick? And the honest truth is that pallys, DKs and bears bring more to a raid than a prot specced warrior.

    Yes, we are maybe 2nd best in all categories (though I would dispute that) but why bring a 2nd best tank when you can bring tanks that are best in different areas to cover the gaps?

    Maybe Ulduar will be different, maybe we will get better with future patches, but, for now, we are losing out imo.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomgore View Post
    Your overstating things like warriors are jack of all trades. That is a plus! Not a negative!
    Nah, in WoW that is not a plus. Ask feral druids, if them being able to dps helped them in tanking. We have probably biggest toolset of all tanks in game, but all those tools have superior equivalent. If you want to min/max, you can replace every single thing, and then you're left with the most basic things to decide who is best tank - mitigation, tps, dps, oh crap buttons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomgore View Post
    How many progression guilds lead with a warrior MT? Why? Because we can adapt and work with any situation, and while we may not specialize in it, we can GET IT DONE.
    Why? because they have excellent tanks left over from vanilla/TBC and since there is no need to replace them, they do not. If the difficulty of the game will ever increase, they will probably adapt. And every tanking class can work in every situation nowadays, + they're best in some situations. But for warriors only the first half of previous sentence is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomgore View Post
    A palies weakness is generally single target duration threat, IMO.
    That statement is completely untrue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomgore View Post
    A DK's is multiple mobs, when they have CD's down, and their snap threat.
    I don't understand. We have issues to grab multiple mobs with our aoe moves on cd too, what is the difference really? Mobs don't fall from the sky, both us and Dks can manage our cooldowns to have them ready when needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glomgore View Post
    PS. Your forgetting that warriors have an innate Damage Reduction of 10% built into their def stance. Bears have bonus armor/hp, palies have bonus threat, DK's have bonus armor, we're the only one that gets a straight up 10% damage mitigation on ALL sourcces of damage, that is not subject to diminishing returns. This will become even more prevalent and may potentially push us into the top in ALL situations at the top gear levels.
    Other tanks have built it flat damage reduction too, check their talent trees.
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Vigilance also transfers threat where BoSanc does not. They are different abilities that provide different utility that just happen to have one thing in common. You use vigilance for threat reason and BoSanc for resource generation. The damage reduction is pretty much bonus compared to their main functions
    Transferring threat (without dps) from one guy to one guy, or increasing threat AND dps of all tanks, which is better? Having 3% damage reduction buff on one guy, or on 25 guys, which is better? Resource generation = threat. Vigilance is crap, BoS is awesome. Imo the bonus threat without dps is only keeping us down, I honestly hate this ability. I can't afford not speccing into it though, its way way below comparable (imo) BoS but it still brings a fair benefit for one talent point.
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    So what? If you bring a prot warrior, he will most often be doing Commanding Shout unless you bring 4+ paladins. If you bring less than that many paladins, then the dps warrior will be doing BS (if you really are trying to maximize buffs). The title of this thread is not about specifically tanks and while the OP definitely seems focused on the tanking aspect, this thread has already delved into the DPS realm as well. This is about warriors as a class, and warriors, as a class, bring Commanding Shout, plain and simple. It's why you would bring a prot warrior. Shoot, just this week we discussing swapping out one of out tanks to get a prot warrior in for Sarth 3D so we could have Commanding Shout. Even unimproved, it is better than BP.
    You don't need 4+ palas, 2 x dps warrior is enough to have max ap buff and max health buff. This thread, despite the title, is clearly about protection warriors.

    Average warrior cannot be "not skilled enough". Average warrior is like average paladin, has the same PC spec, presses buttons as many times per second and has the same connection. If average warrior is below average paladin, that means that warriors should have added "hard mode" adnotation in character creation screen, or things are not balanced.

    And yes, "warriors do half dps of other tanks" is a HUGE exaggeration, I never claimed it is not.

Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts