We are running O.S., Arch and Naxx...haven't made an attempt on Maly yet but yes, we have some excellent geared pallys and DK's. Unfortunately, we don't have but 1 druid and he is Resto.
Big, I agree with you, but it comes down to utility for the entire raid. What level raids are you working on now? and in your guild do you have a good DK / Druid / Pally with rival gear?
We are running O.S., Arch and Naxx...haven't made an attempt on Maly yet but yes, we have some excellent geared pallys and DK's. Unfortunately, we don't have but 1 druid and he is Resto.
So with these Equally geared Pallys / DK's you can out DPS them, if you were in the same role as them?
in an OT role there is no way you could out dps them, wars need to get hit to generate rage and in turn DPS. in an MT role maybe but I would still say DK would out DPS, and pally close.
the trouble comes down to simply this, if there is equally geared / skilled tanks from each tanking class. And the raid had to choose 3. there is rarely any encounter that you (or me) as a war tank can actually shine. each of the other classes have encounters that they are just better as tanking.
My main argument still stands, buff shields so on boss fights the damage we block isn't not negigable. Have it % percentage based, so that if a boss hits for 20 K we block 40-50% instead of a fixed 2-4 K ,
AOE... depends on who gets there first.
One of the most common issues I hear about AOE is "I can't get aggro from the Pally/DK on AOE pulls! They are much better tanks."
First off, if you don't pull the pack, your not going to be getting hit, and Pallies/DK's pull, so many times you are too close to charge, so all you have is bloodrage for a TC or SS. By the time you get rage for a SW the other tank has already build more threat then you can overcome.
Basically, warriors are not made to fight other tanks for aggro, it just doesn't work that way. It doesn't mean we are better or worse at tanking aoe or single target then other classes, just that we operate differently.
If a DK uses a cooldown to get/keep aggro are they cheesing it? If you want one of the AOE mobs taunt it, once its attacking you they won't be able to AOE threat it off you. But really, the only important thing is not which tank has the mobs, but that they are being tanked. Its not that warriors are useless as a second tank for aoe trash, but that only one is needed. If your DK or pally insists on being first to the AOE pulls, then hang back and protect the healers against pats, those invisible ghosty things in Naxx, or that one mob the FF mage just has to go all out on.
Look at it from a different angle, what happens if there was a pally and DK battling for the AOE pack? One of the other is going to win (based on who gets there first and skill level), thus making class X terrible at AOE also.
Warrior What exactly can us warriors do best?"
As a warrior I still don't know. Threat is not really an issue for any class from what I hear, so taking that out of the equation, it comes down to how good you are at mitigating / avoidance damage and DPS, the other classes offer more in the form of raid buffs, and mitigate / avoid more damage, and have higher DPS.
looking not from a personal perspective (I am a war tank and hate this), but from a raid perspective, wars don't do anything the "best".
again it just comes down to the mechanics of how our class works. Dks have high avoidance and better spell mitigation, Druids have high dodge, armor and health. Dps wise DKs get threat via frost presence and Damage output. Druids are just monsters. Pallys again I can't speak for, but they do have higher AOE threat like DKs, and mitigate I believe more damage than wars.
Warriors were designed to be The MT. Single Target threat monsters, and the other classes had niches. But since blizz wanted to move from that mentality of niches, they have buffed every tank class including wars but just not enough. Shields block has the potential to solve this problem. instead of doubling the block value. it should block a % of damage for the active 10/40 secs, and have a 30-40% spell damage reduction. This way shields will not be OP for pallys, and wars will be buffed. but that doesn't really solve the DPS aspect either.
I am sure over time 3.1 timeline we will see some positive changes to war tanks, because if not, you will see alot more 37/3/31 specs to grab relentless to boost dps.
What we do best? We freaking show for raids! While the druids are getting groomed and de-flead, and the Pallys are shopping for curtains. We warriors are there and tanking. You can count on Warriors to be there baby!
Only problem is I just recently joined a guild, they have a DK and pally both much better gear than I, but there are literally 5 other WAR tanks, fighting for a role. Lucky I am better geared but I just joined. when a raid is planned everyone is fighting for a spot. at least two should roll fury imo (but not me :P)
Warrior's niche is being able to do decently well in every type of encounters (multiple mobs, single target, and spell damage) though probably not best in any. It's true, sometimes decent is not enough, but flexibility is always good.
Druids and Pallies have strong deficiency in 1 of the 3 areas. Druids can't tank multiple mobs well because swipe is only frontal. Pallies have very little protection against spell casters and usually have less hp because libram adds 0 stam. I don't know much about DK tanks.
In a typical 25 men raids, you have 3 tanks. It almost never adds value to bring 2 of the same tanking class to fill those 3 slots. Warrior is certainly very appealing for filling a slot. They bring commanding shot, demo shot, thunderclap, vigilance (mainly for threat reduction on high threat dpser), and devastate (armor debuff). Since warrior is so flexible, they can be assigned to do almost anything. Really not much to complain.
In fact, it's gonna be a headache raiding without a prot warrior. Who's gonna put up armor debuff? Rogue or arms warrior? Both are bad solution, because they have to gimp their dps to do it. Who's gonna give hp buff? Smart warlocks play afflication, which usually don't use imp. Even if you have an imp in raid, imp is ranged, can you be sure the imp will always be in range of the tank and not die? Vigilance also beat Hands of Salv by far.
Yep I wouldnt like to be a prot warrior these days. It seems like a lackluster spec to me - but this may just be the players in my guild. Maybe they bring great buffs: - but that's not much of a reason to be brough to a raid, is it? Many vicious discussions were launched when players of all classes complained to Blizzard that all they had to offer was a buff/debuff.
I think druids do a better aoe job than warriors. A lot more damage, a lot more threat (apparently) - warriors only seem to have that 3 mob cleave and the lacklustre (for damage) thunderclap. Shockwave is just a pain for other tanks in a multitank raid. Any tank who used their 360 aoe and doesnt constantly reposition is a fool for letting themselves get beat on from behind. I turn 360, swipe, back up, and I have the effect of a 360 aoe with all the mobs now in front of me. I love it, its very effective. People dont die on my watch because I lack aoe tools, thats for sure.
I dont care about tps - its really all about dps for tanks. Threat is a non-issue for all of us. Whether you're 50%, 65%, 80% ahead of your best dps doesnt matter. When I'm evaluating tanks, I look at total raid damage, and the botttom line is that if we brought 3 druids, we'd clear content a lot faster because 1) they die less often, 2) they do 3x the total raid damage as warriors in tank form. And they can switch most profitably to dps - meaning faster clears again. They can also take high damage for easier boss strategies. I never understood the whole "intervene" strategy on anub, for example. And that whole MC thing for heroic Faerlina - what a waste of time if a druid is tanking. I easily survived a heroic enrage, when our complex MC strategy went wrong and 2 - yes 2 - prot warriors both died. And that was when our gear was a lot of naxx10. This is all my experience in my guild, btw. May be different elsewhere.
Personally I dont get it - but then I also dont understand why our dps DKs are head and shoulders about other pure dpsers in total raid damage with similar gear levels. But the warrior envy I used to experience disappeared a long time ago, and I'm very happy with the druid tanking scene. It could also have a lot to do with that big bad ugly concept of "skill". And personility, likeability, leadership, trustworthiness etc etc etc. The human stuff.
Last edited by Stearns; 02-04-2009 at 04:35 PM.
Everyones experience is different elsewhere - my guild has 3 Prot Warriors who raid frequently, myself being one of them.
As for Shockwave being a pain, its one of the most useful tools at our disposal - for example those annoying little adds on bosses like Anub and Maexxna, stun them as soon as they spawn and it makes AoE'ing then down that little bit easier.
Also on Gluth when the Zombies make a break for him after Decimate hits - if i'm not tanking when it does hit i can turn round and stun a huge group of zombies for 4 seconds giving the dps more time to finish them off.
Theres alot being said about damage, compare it to what we used to deal out in TBC and its a huge difference, sure its not as high as a DK or Feral tank, but i still smile when i see a 9k shield slam every now and then. Its true that Feral tanks can kick out ALOT more dps, if we have a couple of Prot Warriors in the raid, then they will MT on most occasions because Feral tanks can generate the same amount of dps whilst not tanking.
As for AoE tanking, this is generally on trash mobs isnt it? There are occasions when AoE tanking is required on bosses, but not so many that require immediate aggro so the dps can nuke hard and fast for extended periods. Examples of this would be Noth or OS25 with a drake or two up, we used a DK to deal with the Whelps and Lava adds that spawn - he could have tanked them all day and it made a huge difference to the kill.
If you want your piece of the action on trash mobs, then get yourself some nice block gear and as mentioned above get in there first. I'm quite happy for the DK's/Ferals/Tankadins to eat the trash - it speeds things up and i'll just pick off the harder hitting adds.
The minute you start talking about dps being a factor in tanking, then you dilute the whole idea of being a tank.
Sure you should maximise the amount of damage you can generate, make sure your rotations are optimal - alot of the Prot Warriors i know enjoy the way we are at the moment, it may be easier to use another class sometimes, but i also know that should that class not be available i can deal with absolutely anything you can throw at me, always have and always will.
I'm glad that Blizz has leveled out the playing field in regards to tanks, i felt sorry for the pala tanks who said in the past that they were only brought along to deal with trash in MH. The question at the start of this post was "What do WE do best" - the simple answer to that is TANK.
Last edited by Shadowchild; 02-04-2009 at 06:21 PM.
I tend to agree that warriors are being slowly pushed to the side right now, at least based on current content. If you have 4 tanks of equal gear and skill but of different classes, I would say that the warrior possibly brings the least utility out of the lot.
Frankly, if not for the fact that I am nominally in charge of the tanks in my guild, I would be genuinely concerned about whether I could get a tanking spot on any given raid night.
At the moment sunder armor warrants you a raid spot.
As tanks we earn our spots by being good players not by being xyz class, if this was the case druids and paladins would still be at huge disadvantages.
As a warrior you are capable to tank every encounter currently in game. If you were/are broken trust me you will get fixed fairly fast.
In a way you are seeing the side of the table that was the position of the druid and prot paladin. Where no matter how hard you tried you were rarely ever a good replacement for a prot warrior and no you aren't there yet but now that you have seen prehaps you realise why people asked as a community for other tanking classes to be viable.
Prot warriors aren't in any danger as i can see it and if they were I think Xav or Cider wouldn't take it they would stand up and say it is not right!
There do need to be some changes to the way buffs are handed out sanctuary, sunder and possibly mangle are a bit too unique.
I think this is a natural growing pain with the expansion.
Remember in TBC druids and pallies were defined as tanks based on what they did better than warriors. And just to make sure they didn't just feel inferior, all encounters were designed with a warrior MT in mind (the devs have admitted this).
Now, they've made all encounters tankable by any class, but the things druids and pallies did better than us, they still do better than us.
So we've gone from being the yardstick to being some almost unnecessary jack of all trades, since all tanks can perform all roles now. It's natural for us to *feel* underpowered now that the truly underpowered tanks have been brought to our level.
Whether they've gone overboard and it isn't just a feeling remains to be seen.
Shadowchild, the problem is tanking isn't about tanking anymore. All classes can hold aggro, and your mitigation / avoidance I wouldn't say level but all classes can do most encounters banking on some good healers. With this in mind, who cares that we (I am a prot war) can "tank". The mind set is slowly creeping in and you see it from the post by Stearns, why have a war tank that produces 1/2 the DPS when you can get a equally good tank (i terms of mitigation/avoidance) and be a extra dps.
I haven't ran much with druid tanks but I tanked patch work as a hateful OT and dk was MT and druid was the other OT. the druid didn't even have all his gear setup for tanking (he had alot of dps gems). He sat at 41K health, and could take hateful WAY easier than I. But that is the Tankability aspect. But he was 8th on DPS. So in that case replace me with anothre druid and you would have easier hatefuls and double the dps.
But I agree with other posts about how we are WAY better off then before. The only way to "fixed" this if in fact we are broken is either make us be able to tank BEST in some encounters which they don't want to do. OR buff our damage even more (or even make dpsing in OT role more viable (when we are not getting hit)).
But we are the jack of all trades but if I was leading a progression raid and I had the choice of 4 tank types I wouldn't take a warrior. I would simply get the other tanks and use their strenghts to progress the raid.
Raid buff wise, sunders are very useful, but rouge / dps warrior can scarfice a bit of dps to stack armor reduction, and commanding shout is very good, but with good healers rarely 2K health extra will save you raid from a wipe. Vig is also very good, but with the DPS/TPS that other tanks can do, I doubt many dps are threat capped.
I do agree moving shield block value would end up making more sense as a percentage. That certainly would make the stat slightly more useful than it is now for sure.
Moving the discussion along, I don't feel like warrior should be the ONLY tanks for raiding, but rather I feel that each tank besides us do have situations in which they truly shine. Now this comes in the form of:
Raid utility(pallys and druids stand out),
Better AOE control(pallys and DKs stand out)
Better mitigation/HP pools(It feels as if all 3 other classes have the upper hand here).
Like I previously said, what particularly do we do best out of all 4 tanking classes? My one obvious answer is that we have mobility advantage. However, as someone had said before here, we don't have any fights where mobility really has an advantage. Perhaps if warbringer made it so whenever you charged/intervened/intercepted, it dealt damage to mobs in your path, our mobility might actually be useful. As-is though, we're lackluster in all fights of Naxx. Personally, with all tanks being able to do the job there, i'd prefer a pally/druid/DK combo. DKs can take magic hits well, druids can deal an insane amount of DPS(hitting top 5 in DPS in many fights), and paladins have superior mitigation and much more buff utility(BoSanc, might, wis, kings?). Those three really are just synergistic with one another, and when you try to replace one with a warrior, you're actually giving up overall effectiveness for..... What? Mobility? An armor debuff and speed debuff(speed debuff not worth wasting a GCD on in my opinion for single-target tanking)?
It's a tough sell and I know I'm nitpicking because I -am- a warrior, but again I'm also speaking from experience and looking at all of the 4 tanking classes, what numbers they are putting out, and what they are bringing overall to our raiders.
I think that what mabi says here may help, throwing shield block value as a percentage. I also think if cleave were changed to make it more useful in AOE tanking situations(perhaps hit all in a 180 cone, or make the threat more potent), I would feel as if we had the right tools for the job.
(5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances
Warriors have great utility. Sure some classes can bring similar things, but that is the whole point now. That is what is desired, more sharing among buffs. Things like Sunder Armor, Demo Shout, Commanding Shout, Battle Shout, etc. are a great suite of buffs.
Where do you get that warriors are doing half the dps of other tanks though? I haven't really seen that in practice and given the many parses posted here at tankspot, it doesn't seem to be the case for others either.
EDIT: Here is an example parse. Note that Xav did 2200+ DPS over the course of the raid and did 3300+ on patchwerk. Other tanks aren't pulling 4400 and 6600 respectively. The other tanks are going to be in same general vicinity, not twice as high. Shoot, on my naxx run tonight, I pulled 2200 overall and only 2800+ DPS on patchwerk. That's not to say warriors don't need a bump, but it certainly isn't as dismal as "half the dps of other tanks". A lot of it simply boils down to gear and skill.
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Last edited by jere; 02-04-2009 at 09:53 PM.
The distinction between the different tanking classes isn't large enough to make any specific class really excel right now. The only exception in my opinion is druid tanks vs very hard hitting mobs, no boss right now fits this very well, but it's still a point.
People really need to stop trying to find an out for not being as good as they think they are. It's not your class, it's not your raid buffs, or your raid debuffs. You need to earn your raid slot by being an asset to your raid as a player and person.