They added the need for skill to be competitive into the mix. We have to adapt plain and simple.
To give you the "tl;dr" you're asking for: "Please discuss intelligently, stop being so stand-offish"
Last edited by Tarkonn; 02-05-2009 at 07:49 AM.
(5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances
Your starting post is a whine is disguise. Your title is:"Warrior What exactly can us warriors do best?" on which you have had multiple answers but all these answers don't seem to count.
While the title should have been "Zomg wariors are sooo underpowered plx buff blizzard." because it's not that one unique abilitie you're searching for it's that somewhere in your mind, all the other tanking classes are so much stronger that you don't need a warrior at all anymore.
Brushing Sunder Armor aside as a minor help at best to the raid is laughable. It's the best raid buff (Debuff) in the game for improving DPS, if you have some melee dps in your raid.
It's why they're doing something about it in 3.1.
Warrior tanks provide synergy to the raid in similar ways to other classes. Only feral druids really provide an extraordinary amount of synergy/buffs to the raid still, but I'm not complaining.
You guys really have to understand threads of this nature are likely to be locked because of how low quality the conversations become.
People are telling you that the difference between the tanking classes isn't large enough to make complaining about it worthwhile. People are regularly proving that warriors are perfectly capable of doing anything. And there's also the simple fact that warriors do have sufficient synergy to the raid right now.
Some people are marginalizing the warrior buffs/debuffs by mentioning other classes in the raid that provide them. Well, I can do the same thing.
"DK's provide so much synergy" really? Nothing the warlocks you have can't do, or enhancement shaman (these are common), hunters...
"Druids provide so much synergy" Every raid has a fury warrior, Lotp is useless. Also our pvp'ing warrior puts up trauma so that talent isnt needed either! (innervate and battle rez however are extremely unique and no other class even compares, but that's not really worth complaining about in relation to this thread)
"Paladin tanks provide so much synergy!" Sanctuary isn't hard to pick up as a holy spec since Beacon is situationally useful, our holy paladin gets it all the time..there goes one prot paladin buff. An extra blessing aside from sanctuary? Just bring more amazing holy paladins for them, holy paladins rock anyway. Judgement of light/wisdom? Extremely high incentive for holy paladins to keep them up, and you have a ret paladin anyway!
That isn't very fair either, is it? But it illustrates my point clearly, and is precisely what blizzard was going for: overlapping of who can provide buffs/debuffs to the raid so you aren't forced to bring specific classes/specs nearly as much.
Stop grasping for straws and start performing.
And to the guy who mentioned they'd prefer the thread not go the way of threat discussion, that's fine. I was simply going to look at the parse of that person and list a few ways they could have increased their threat, rather than immediately going and posting that their class sucks.
I am a new (paladin) tank to the xpac and am still learning a lot about the various classes etc. However, I can say that from my experience prot warriors are better that paladins in aoe situations where you need to get snap agro. Having a number of instant aoe moves (shockwave, tclap, demo shout) can be very helpful, most notably on Sarth 3d add tanking (which is also where the inreased mobilty of a prot warrior is excelelnt as well). While Pallies are better at holding onto aoe agro once established, and better at no-skill aoe threat holding once the mobs are hitting us given holy shield, but if your consecrate is in the wrong place or the mobs move out of range while it's ticking you have to wait a nice long time before having any other aoe move. Wheras prot warriors can charge, heroic throw, intervene, etc. and get in position and do an instant cast move.
Let's also not forget that the current content (other than sarth 3d) doesn't require vast skill to tank (heck I can tank naxx). When it gets harder you will see how the different classes stack up.
The main issue here is that we are really getting derailed and I would agree with XAV that this thread be locked. Since it is going down an uglier road.
when if comes to buff/debuffs, there is no doubt that warriors have utility but there is still some lacking in my opinion since many of the buff/debuffs can be filled by others.
no one is talking about TPS or shouldn't be, i agree if you are having issues than work on your rotation.
a lot of talk about mobility, and currently there isn't much use for it and with taunt having a 30 yard range now it is even less useful.
And I also believe that if people are discussing warrior changes doesn't make them whinny, some people are concerned that a mindset will sink in that warriors are second class tanks.
the problem with the thread now is there is obviously no consensus on what needs to be fixed, which means that there is no way to identify the problems and post possible solutions to the problems.
Also if you don't have a war tank and are of a different tanking class, this thread I believe isn't an attack on your class. I think alot of pally/druid/DKs think that because wars have now been leveled out that that is the only reason we are discussing this, but in fact there is something broken with warriors.
Again, solutions would be helpful if you have a particular issue in mind.
maybe the creation or change of a shout that for the entire raid absorbs X magic damage to bring us in line with DKs or make us viable OTs for magic daamge bosses with a nice synergy with DKs.
and DPS wise I did misstate my stance about 1/2 the damage we do. I personally don't have the dps that I would like and that is my problem not the classes problem, I do how ever thing a boost to damage is needed. Bear tanks are actualy monsters of dps, I evny that.
- Commanding Shout
- Shield Bash + Silence
- Spell Reflect (+ talented for the party)
- Revenge Stun
- Ranged Silence (Heroic Throw)
- Charge in combat + removing movement impairing effect
- Vigilance's Salv
- Vigilance's Infinite Taunts
- Sunder Armor
- Demoralizing Shout
- Thunder Clap
- Shield Slam's Dispel
- AOE stun ala Shockwave
- Fear escape ala Berserker Rage
- 3 Taunt effects (Taunt, Mocking Blow, Challenging Shout)
- AOE Fear ala Intimidating Shout
Frankly, I think there's the most complaining about Warriors is b/c we're the hardest to play properly. Our standard rotation with the addition of 2 new abilities and haveing to monitoring Sword and Board procs all while using Heroic Strike effectively is no joke. And, beyond that what makes us great is a whole lot of little things that just don't seem to quite be good enough, but when they're all used effectively they add up to us being not just okay or good, but great.
for everyone that was saying that sunder armor is a MUST and that is one of the reason wars are needed.... look at 3.1 changes
Sunder Armor (and similar debuffs) now reduces armor by 4% per application, and is now a single rank. Creature armor has been globally reduced so that debuffed targets should take about the same damage from physical attacks that they did before this change. The net effect should be that this debuff is slightly less mandatory in PvE and is not disproportionately more powerful against cloth targets in PvP.
If there are people out there that feel prot warriors are lackluster and useless compared to other tanks, really just reroll to one of the far and away superior tanking classes. No matter how many times you say you love playing a warrior and you shouldn't be forced to reroll "because blizzard can't balance classes", you honestly can't say you enjoy it. If you did, this thread and the various cries of doom wouldn't exist.
There are also people here that feel prot warriors are amazing right now. Some of those people are considered resident experts by most. Hell, there's even non warrior tank classes in here defending warriors.
Threads like these don't bring anything to the table as far as fostering a real discussion on making people better tanks playing a class they enjoy. Instead these threads turn into collective wolf crying by people who can only see things as negative and can't see the positive when it's shown to them.
Sure, I'll give benefit of the doubt there's no singular tank class, spec or even "MT" anymore. A few out there might feel somewhat injured by that, but it's the way things are going. Tanks in a guild/raid are a team much like healers have been.
TL;DR...If you don't like it reroll. The constant whining and crying about someone being better than someone else because of a decision they made on the character creation screen is old, unproductive to the tanking community here, and by and large a dead horse.
just making the point that these changes will not help warrior tanks in the context of this thread.
and for a dps to honestly through up a sunder will not gimp dps in any meaningful way. but again I am a war tank, and I see problems coming up, the mind set hasn't sunk in yet thankfully, but it soon will.
I agree with the orginal post. Lately, I've been feeling that my warrior is the red-headed step child of wow. My utility has been diminished by the buffing of other existing tanking classes (and addition) of the death knight.
First off though - thank you blizzard for shockwave and the increased threat from TC. And with specing into DW I haven't had problems with threat BUT I want to do some damage too! It kills me to see other tanking classes pulling in 2-3K dps while tanking effortlessly.
What's wrong with letting warriors put up some massive numbers too? I hate that my crit is < 10% in prot form. I hold threat well - but I think I can speak for alot of warriors when I say its nice to see BIG numbers flash by in scrolling combat text. In addition, in time sensitive fights our dps matters too!
Sorry Mabijaoude i didnt have a chance to check for replys until just now - its a valid point that certain classes can now tank and kick out extra dps, for this reason i've spec'd Deep Wounds to give myself that little boost, the fact that it also activates when TC crits is handy too.
I think the way in which we operate is going through a transition at the moment - Naxx is fun, but also very easy as you can pretty much AoE anything down. I would like to see how things stand when Ulduar arrives, as Blizz have stated that they want to introduce CC again, which i'm hoping will make tanking alot more clinical again.
If i build a raid i will try and add as many different classes/spec's as i can, because they all offer something beneficial - but i certainly won't overlook someone because of their class.
I love playing a Prot Warrior, so i'm obviously going to be biased - but i really don't see why peeps are getting so down about the current situation, if your a good tank then people recognise it and your class becomes almost irrelevant.
Extra dps is an added bonus for tanks, but none of the tanks i raid with comment or have had other people comment on their dps output, they are all fully focused on the job we were chosen for, which is getting punched in the face by various nasties.
Dps just isnt an issue for us, its possible that we are old fashioned, as the majority of us have been tanking since the days of MC, but it certainly doesnt stop the bosses from falling over night after night.
Warriors are in no way worse because the other classes have an easier time tanking then they used to. My guild has access to a tank of each class and they are all good at it, but every time I say I'm going to dps for a run I'm told by most of the guild that they would rather I tank. This isn't because I'm bad at dps, my gear is solid, I'm around where everyone else is, but because I know my class and do my job well, they feel more comfortable with me doing it, even if the DK or pally would have an easier job holding packs or the druid has more health.
One thing I think Blizzard did right this time around is make all of the tanking classes pretty much even, real skill shows through now, if the other tanks in your guild are passing you up maybe it's time for you to figure out what you're doing wrong and step up your play.
I do agree that skill trumps everything.
but I differ with respect to the DPS component. Reason being that if other tanks can pull more dps and are equal skilled the raid would be a fool to not choose the more dps tank. things will drop faster progression will be faster.
The non issues are threat, since all tanks can hold aggro, and survivability is an issue also and currently we aren't the best tanks for melee bosses, we aren't the best tanks for caster bosses, and we aren't the best tanks for multi-mob pulls.
it just appears that blizzard wanted to remove niches but did that for war tanks, and didn't fully remove it on other tanks (I remember a blue post way back specifically saying that DKs will be the best caster tanks).
I am not too worried but I just hope the wheels start turning now instead of after 3.1