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Thread: What exactly can us warriors do best?

  1. #1
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    What exactly can us warriors do best?

    After tanking tonight and watching the HP pools of our other respective tanks, I've been getting the same feeling over and over and over again:

    Why are warriors even worth bringing to a raid?

    We are outclassed in DPS by our druid/pally/DK brothers, we can't AOE tank(as well), pallys have more mitigation overall with holy shield up, pallys can stack the initial threat on harder and in many cases still beat us in single target threat..... I guess what I'm getting at is that I feel that warriors have slipped away from even being 3rd best on the list as far as tanks. I can't really tank trash too well(still do it to an extent, pulling 1-2 mobs off the MT), I can be outgunned on boss fights and get thrown to OTing adds... I just feel, unused. My DPS on the charts rarely goes above 1500-1800ish, meanwhile I see bear tanks up around 2800dps also with the ability to go up to 4k DPS just by switching a little bit of gear and going to cat.

    What is the warrior's main role, and why does it lack so much utility compared to every single other tank?

    Druid = amazing HP, amazing DPS, amazing single target tanking, amazing AOE tanking. Can give very useful raid-wide buffs, and switch freely between cat/bear form and have a huge boost in DPS while still being able to tank if needed mid-fight
    Paladin = Almost similar HP, better DPS, equal single target tanking, and amazing AOE tanking. Can provide amazing raid-wide buffs, and will even override our battle shout with Might.
    DK = Higher HP, better DPS, about equal single target tanking(depending on spec), and awesome AOE tanking. Horn of winter costs nothing for them except a GCD. On the raid buff side overall, they have just about as much utility as us.

    Warrior = ???
    Ok HP - I seem to be fighting hard to keep myself defense capped. Not sure if other warriors are experiencing this
    Sub-par DPS compared to other tanks
    Good single-target tanking, on par with the others
    Barely enough AOE ability, completely abysmal compared to any other class.

    Given my armory, what am I doing wrong? What am I screwing up in my gear that I'm not able to equal or beat other tanks in certain situations? I have the rotations down pat, I -can- tank the bosses, but our pally tank can push her avoidance to 87% with holy shield and soak up the damage...

    Here are comparisons of tanks i'm running with
    Warrior tank: Tarkonn
    Paladin tank: Heffaf
    Druid tank: Roonyx

    What am I doing wrong as a warrior in my build, that i'm not able to push out the DPS(Edit: Meant DPS, typed TPS) I want? Is it a hit%/exp% I'm not hitting? If so, what are the numbers I need to obtain? Because I hear a lot about them, but I never see the numbers in posts...
    Last edited by Tarkonn; 02-05-2009 at 08:00 AM.
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  2. #2
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    Truthfully I cannot see an issue with yer setup other than the hohum hit rating. yer avoidance is by no means bad at all. As it is defense is easy to overshoot depending on if your willing to trade a 1400 hp buff for a last stand like trinket with excellent defense attached. So I do not know.. to each his own. Have yet to find a situation where I feel useless unless it thaddius

  3. #3
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    Sunder Armor!

  4. #4
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    Charge.

  5. #5
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    I think Dks are the lowest tps class out there but thats just my opinion i think warrior/pallys/druids are the same tps

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elan View Post
    Truthfully I cannot see an issue with yer setup other than the hohum hit rating. yer avoidance is by no means bad at all. As it is defense is easy to overshoot depending on if your willing to trade a 1400 hp buff for a last stand like trinket with excellent defense attached. So I do not know.. to each his own. Have yet to find a situation where I feel useless unless it thaddius
    I guess I just feel like I am busting ass trying to keep to my rotation, especially in AOE tanking, and I'm getting completely owned by what feels like the push of one button by pallys/DKs/Druids. They all have what seems to be one move that they can spam over and over to achieve the same result while I have to maintain a rotation of Thunderclap/Shockwave/Cleave(glyphed for the extra target), in that particular order, while tabbing between mobs to lay down shield slams, revenges, and taunts to keep AOE groups together... Even then, they STILL pass me in threat.

    I understand warriors were never made for tanking trash, but over time it feels like blizz has decided to buff other tanks to the point where they can do single target equal, if not better than us in many cases. If that's the case, why bother with the warrior when you can bring any combo of the other 3 tanks and achieve the same result, with higher buffs for the raid?

    Again, I just have the nagging sense of being passed up in all roles of tanking by every class of tank there is. I'd at least like to be able to push 3-4k DPS on trash like a druid by stance dancing like they shift forms. That would be amazing.

    Just hoping we get some sort of buff to bring us closer to the forefront of tanking again.
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  7. #7
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    I think it's valid to worry about being "replaced" at something you are passionate about, but I also think that the developers are too concerned with equality to let things turn out as disproportionately as you're making them out to be.

    My apologies in advance, but including trash tanking at all feels a little lame to me. I love working alongside a paladin, as the AoE capable classes are able to blow everything up at once and quicken our pace through the instance. I'll gladly peel my one or two mobs off of her and let the DPS run wild.

    You did touch on a point that I feel is worth expanding upon though: "get thrown to OTing adds." As I'm going through the Naxx song and dance in both a main tank and off tank role, I have to admit the instance feels like a hell hole of "boss tank" and "adds tank" style fights. This is one thing I sincerely hope they handle differently in Ulduar... I'm going to go ahead and speak for my co-tank for a moment, but our favorite fights are the ones where we need to work well together... Gluth, Patchwerk, Gothik, Razuvious (even though it's lame that they don't let us tank him ourselves), and the horsemen. Anywhere else, one of us is getting beat up and the other is "thrown to OTing adds."

    I completely derailed your post, and I'm so sorry. I just think you hit a very good point that is really the fault of the design of the encounters.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corisa View Post
    I think it's valid to worry about being "replaced" at something you are passionate about, but I also think that the developers are too concerned with equality to let things turn out as disproportionately as you're making them out to be.

    My apologies in advance, but including trash tanking at all feels a little lame to me. I love working alongside a paladin, as the AoE capable classes are able to blow everything up at once and quicken our pace through the instance. I'll gladly peel my one or two mobs off of her and let the DPS run wild.

    You did touch on a point that I feel is worth expanding upon though: "get thrown to OTing adds." As I'm going through the Naxx song and dance in both a main tank and off tank role, I have to admit the instance feels like a hell hole of "boss tank" and "adds tank" style fights. This is one thing I sincerely hope they handle differently in Ulduar... I'm going to go ahead and speak for my co-tank for a moment, but our favorite fights are the ones where we need to work well together... Gluth, Patchwerk, Gothik, Razuvious (even though it's lame that they don't let us tank him ourselves), and the horsemen. Anywhere else, one of us is getting beat up and the other is "thrown to OTing adds."

    I completely derailed your post, and I'm so sorry. I just think you hit a very good point that is really the fault of the design of the encounters.
    I wouldn't say you're de-railing, you're contributing to healthy discussion!

    I guess I'm just not very pleased with the role I'm filling, however, I -do- enjoy tanking in general. My DK is up to almost 79 now, so I may work on him for the next few weeks. The group I'm with I'm well slated into the OT role, which to me, I don't like. As you said(and I'm going to agree), I really enjoy fights where both tanks are taking the load of the fight. It makes things so much more enjoyable, knowing that you're there for a purpose, making or breaking the raid's success. I find myself lagging behind after fights though, not really too enthused to be in there banging up the trash. I normally just hop in, clap/cleave and sometimes shockwave if i have the rage. I think mainly the issue warriors are having is that even with doing thunderclap/shockwave/cleave right off the bat, other classes are eaily ripping aggro in multi-mob pulls, and our rage suffers for it. I'd say druids are the same way, but their swipes do hit ALL targets in front of them, not just 2(or 3 glyphed). Perhaps all Blizz would have to do is throw cleave hitting all targets in front of you, deep in the prot tree as a bonus. I'm sure that would fix a lot, but is that something they feel would imbalance us too much? I know our DPS would come more in-line with druids, which would be a plus at least in AOE situations and make things much easier on our fingers(who else has fingers cramp up?).

    I'm just really searching for a validation for putting all this time into a warrior, when I can start working on my DK, throw him to a tanking role, and say screw the warrior. Perhaps warriors are Blizz's "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
    (5/13/53) - Awesome pre-raid AOE tank spec for instances

  9. #9
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    We have Spell Reflect! Which works on one boss fight, but it needs to be Improved to be useful...
    We have fear breaker! Sadly, nothing fears...
    We have exceptional mobility! Sadly taunts have 30y range...

    It feels like develepors decided to force people out of "warrior = MT" mindset, by making it worse than other tanks. Of course we still can tank everything, just for everything there is someone better.

    Also, we look best.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ugron View Post
    I think Dks are the lowest tps class out there but thats just my opinion i think warrior/pallys/druids are the same tps
    Good DK tanks know how to TPS : http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f177/...nchmark-7.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Suspect
    DK Tank. 3380-3410 DPS (8278 TPS)

    Long fight (brought too many healers on accident... hey it happens!).

    Wow Web Stats 3380 DPS
    WoW Meter Online 3410 (8278 TPS)
    WWS Parse 8229 TPS

  11. #11
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    The combination of charge, thunderclap, shockwave is a really strong snap aggro move. Also it keeps a pack nicely bunched up. Pulling often leaves casters at the back while melee are already beating on you. Also shockwave/shieldblock is really nice to lower incoming damage at the start of a fight.

    If you're having single target tps problems you should look at your rotation and time yur abilities better. I press my abilites really really fast to make them of exactly when the skill becomes available, do not wait for the icon to light up or you will be loosing tps.
    Last edited by orcstar; 02-04-2009 at 04:49 AM.

  12. #12
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    I raised this concern a while back when I started to see DK tanks coming out. I love tanking as prot war. But it does seems that we need some type of change to make us more viable. DKs can easily have 10-20% more avoidance ( and amazing at caster mobs), bear tanks are literally beast (I just recently realized that agi for them is so key for both cat and bear form), pallies I don't know to much about but I know if they are good they are really good.

    Also in an OT role when adds do drop and there is 10-20 secs of time where we could be DPSing the boss, we can't. but as mentioned DK/druid, just switch and can DPS as well, if we are not getting hit we have 0 rage.

    There are a few ways to fit this, SHIELDS SHIELDS SHIELDS. Make shields actually good for boss fights, I don't see why I should not be blocking 10-14K damage from a boss attack, we and pallies have them, bears and DKs don't, so lets make them useful.
    Buffing shields in such a way to bring us inline with bear tanks melee damage reduction, also add a Spell damage reduction to shield block so we have some useful damage reduction against casters.


    With AOE threat abilities, DKs and Pallies should be more of a trash role, making them into single target roles and the raid buffs, and the fact that DKs can just change presences and DK without having to worry about rage, dps better than any Warrior tank, to me makes sense to place them in the OT role always, and buff warriors back to MT status. The problem with this is that other tank classes will wine about not being able to MT cause wars are better but in fact being in a OT role as a bear / DK you bring more utility to the raid then MTing.


    Warriors do not have the same raid buffs and DPS (in an off tank role) than other classes do, so naturally they need to make us better tanks than the others to ensure us some type of role.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkonn View Post
    Given my armory, what am I doing wrong? What am I screwing up in my gear that I'm not able to equal or beat other tanks in certain situations? I have the rotations down pat, I -can- tank the bosses, but our pally tank can push her avoidance to 87% with holy shield and soak up the damage...

    Here are comparisons of tanks i'm running with
    Warrior tank: Tarkonn
    Paladin tank: Heffaf
    Druid tank: Roonyx

    What am I doing wrong as a warrior in my build, that i'm not able to push out the TPS I want? Is it a hit%/exp% I'm not hitting? If so, what are the numbers I need to obtain? Because I hear a lot about them, but I never see the numbers in posts...
    As a note, Holy Shield does not affect avoidance at all. It pushes up block percent, but adds nothing to dodge, parry, or miss.

    As far as DPS/TPS goes, I seem to remember a thread ( maybe by Xav???) that discussed how to increase warrior DPS/TPS. I know warriors can do really good dps. In an ideal fight (like patchwerk) they might even do superior DPS to the other classes (did anyone actually beat the warrior record without cheating?). I will try to dig up that thread for you to see if it helps.

    Warriors do bring buffs to raids. They even bring a, for all practical purposes, unmatched buff. Commanding Shout has no equal. Bloodpact, which doesn't stack, is the closest thing and it is nearly 1/2 the effect of CS. BS is a very good buff and we tend to use it a lot so we can max out what few pally buffs we have available. Now I agree that the method for providing these buffs is silly (shoot I remember the days of single target blessing 40 man raids with 5 minute buffs), but the effectiveness of these buffs is good. There is a difference in no utility and utility that is annoying to provide. CS, however, is an unmatched buff pretty much, even untalented.

    Still, I think the devs really are trying to get away from having "raid utility" from being the defining factor in raid composition. They can't get rid of it totally, but what they did do was minimize it, so you snagged your 8 or so players that provided all the "needed" buffs/debuffs, allowing you freedom to pick whomever you wanted for the remaining raid slots. They may not be there yet, but they are trying and I think warriors still have some tweaking to get in the buff/debuff arena.

    EDIT: Looking at your armory versus the paladin, he does have a lot more hit and a bit more expertise than you, which might be part of the delta. Also, you are using the Broken Promise, I was under the impression that it wasn't as good for DPS/TPS due to the slow swing speed, but I am not 100% on that.

    EDIT2: Check this thread out: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f64/4...ur-damage.html
    Last edited by jere; 02-04-2009 at 09:10 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corisa View Post
    I think it's valid to worry about being "replaced" at something you are passionate about, but I also think that the developers are too concerned with equality to let things turn out as disproportionately as you're making them out to be.

    My apologies in advance, but including trash tanking at all feels a little lame to me. I love working alongside a paladin, as the AoE capable classes are able to blow everything up at once and quicken our pace through the instance. I'll gladly peel my one or two mobs off of her and let the DPS run wild.

    You did touch on a point that I feel is worth expanding upon though: "get thrown to OTing adds." As I'm going through the Naxx song and dance in both a main tank and off tank role, I have to admit the instance feels like a hell hole of "boss tank" and "adds tank" style fights. This is one thing I sincerely hope they handle differently in Ulduar... I'm going to go ahead and speak for my co-tank for a moment, but our favorite fights are the ones where we need to work well together... Gluth, Patchwerk, Gothik, Razuvious (even though it's lame that they don't let us tank him ourselves), and the horsemen. Anywhere else, one of us is getting beat up and the other is "thrown to OTing adds."

    I completely derailed your post, and I'm so sorry. I just think you hit a very good point that is really the fault of the design of the encounters.
    I agree, fights with little itty bitty adds is a slap to the face.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    We have Spell Reflect! Which works on one boss fight, but it needs to be Improved to be useful...
    We have fear breaker! Sadly, nothing fears...
    We have exceptional mobility! Sadly taunts have 30y range...

    It feels like develepors decided to force people out of "warrior = MT" mindset, by making it worse than other tanks. Of course we still can tank everything, just for everything there is someone better.

    Also, we look best.
    Naw DW dk tier7.5 loks the best.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkonn View Post
    I wouldn't say you're de-railing, you're contributing to healthy discussion!

    I guess I'm just not very pleased with the role I'm filling, however, I -do- enjoy tanking in general. My DK is up to almost 79 now, so I may work on him for the next few weeks. The group I'm with I'm well slated into the OT role, which to me, I don't like. As you said(and I'm going to agree), I really enjoy fights where both tanks are taking the load of the fight. It makes things so much more enjoyable, knowing that you're there for a purpose, making or breaking the raid's success. I find myself lagging behind after fights though, not really too enthused to be in there banging up the trash. I normally just hop in, clap/cleave and sometimes shockwave if i have the rage. I think mainly the issue warriors are having is that even with doing thunderclap/shockwave/cleave right off the bat, other classes are eaily ripping aggro in multi-mob pulls, and our rage suffers for it. I'd say druids are the same way, but their swipes do hit ALL targets in front of them, not just 2(or 3 glyphed). Perhaps all Blizz would have to do is throw cleave hitting all targets in front of you, deep in the prot tree as a bonus. I'm sure that would fix a lot, but is that something they feel would imbalance us too much? I know our DPS would come more in-line with druids, which would be a plus at least in AOE situations and make things much easier on our fingers(who else has fingers cramp up?).

    I'm just really searching for a validation for putting all this time into a warrior, when I can start working on my DK, throw him to a tanking role, and say screw the warrior. Perhaps warriors are Blizz's "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
    The reason for staying a warrior is so that when you are one of the last on your server and clawing your way to the top, you will feel a sense of satisfaction knowing you aren't at the top because you are OPed like dks, pallies and druids,

  17. #17
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    IIRC...
    - Warriors (in theory) generate the most TPS/DPS on a ST.
    - Warriors also mitigate the most damage (by 1-2%) although the incoming damage stream is spikier.

    The inherent class differences between a Paladin and a Warrior are so small in those two areas that they are easily eclipsied by player skill level.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkonn View Post
    I guess I just feel like I am busting ass trying to keep to my rotation, especially in AOE tanking, and I'm getting completely owned by what feels like the push of one button by pallys/DKs/Druids. They all have what seems to be one move that they can spam over and over to achieve the same result while I have to maintain a rotation of Thunderclap/Shockwave/Cleave(glyphed for the extra target), in that particular order, while tabbing between mobs to lay down shield slams, revenges, and taunts to keep AOE groups together... Even then, they STILL pass me in threat.
    This, my friend, is your problem. Cleave is terrible for threat since the threat is divided to their multiple mob.

    Your best bet would be TC, shield slam on the main killing target, HS, tab HS and still maintain aggro. Keep TC on CD and SW when you think you're gonna lose aggro.

    I lead on my alt druid, and we have a full time prot war and DK tank. I switch the MT roles between them depending on the fight and their gear. Similar gear tanks should see very similar performance/game time.

    I am sorry you dont get to MT 100% of the time, may be get off your horse and realize that some people also want their moment of glory. What does it matter that you are stuck picking up adds (since your block negate most of their hits)? On hard hitting bosses you get hit harder due to shield negating negligible amount of the boss hits.

    Honestly if nothing else, warrior MT is awesome since 100% sunder uptime is > any DPS that your tank can pull off.

  19. #19
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    Would be nice if Spell Reflect acted as a timed defense buff, like Shield Block. Say, for 4 seconds reflects 50% of enemy spells. Would certainly make them more useful.

    But then that may also be overpowered, so who knows?

  20. #20
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    If I may add my 2 cents in, I do agree that class wise, there are better tanks than warriors and I am a warrior. But instead of getting upset and wating to put your warrior on a shelf to collect dust or be a farming tool, do what I did. I worked on my gear, my rotation and just practiced, practiced and practiced some more to make myself the best tank I could be. With AOE tanking, I charge in, TC, then shockwave, then tab target with devastates with hitting TC and shockwave every cd. I hardly ever have any dps pulling mobs off me with that rotation. Warriors can out tank any class if they know what they are doing.

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