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Thread: Little advice appriciated about raid leading

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009

    Little advice appriciated about raid leading

    Hi all!

    I am a member of a rather small guild with about 18 lvl80's at this time and are doing my best to organize and lead our first raids.
    We make only slight progression during the raids in Naxx at the moment, we cleared the spider wing, the military wing and are still trying to down the other wings. Before we did a couple of Obsidian Sanctum and Vault of Archavon, wich is not too difficult anymore as it seems.

    The 'problem' is I feel like I am one from the few people who is willing to invest some time doing some 'homework' like looking up tactics, watching the tankspot movies and so on. Most of the participants dont have any idea what is going on and what to expect in there. Altough I did rent a ventrilo server for 50 players and everyone is using it very well and I can hear anyone having idea's about how to finish off a certain boss. So the spirit is there definatly. We just lack a little experience.....

    I am the main tank in the raid and do the job as raid leader all times when i participate. But its getting a bit anoying to find out I need to tell everyone the tactics over and over again. When the encounter starts, some people still behave like they have no idea what to do, and wipe is close at that time. So they start yelling like 'heal me' or 'I am dead', healers are getting confused about what to do and forget to heal the MT and OT, which means 'wipe'

    Now we got our own website up with forums and everything on it. I write articles with tactical links, pictures and everything you can think of to be sure you have the knowledge about what is waiting in the raid for you.
    But even with that people seems too lazy to take the time to read it and just stepping in and let everything come as a surprice.
    Its not lacking on pre-raiding gear. Most are olmost full epic or half epic geared. We did do a lot of heroics and did buy nice things with the emblems of heroism to get ready for raiding.

    What to do? I am not a kind of person who want to be hard on people, but on the other side, I want to see progression for the whole guild in raiding. The people don't give up quickly, so thats a plus. Only thing I would like to see, they spent some time on reading tactics and watching some movies to get an idea.
    Or is it usual that you, as raid leader and MT, do all the homework and keep everyone informed about what to do?

    How is the rest dealing with this? How to set up a raid (10 men till now) and motivate people to do a little homework for the riads?

    Really hope to see some good advice on this post.
    Thank you very much in advance!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Motivate people by recruiting better players to replace them.

    Only thing that works.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Well you said you had 18 level 80s currently right?

    You could put a guild message of the day up that said something like, "If you do not know the fights, you will not get a spot this week." Maybe list a few bosses that you are working on....then when it comes time to do invites quiz people. Even basic things like how many bosses are in naxx? Which bosses are we struggling on? What do you need to watch for on thadius?

    If you ask people to step up and they are refusing to do so, then punishment is in order. Not raiding is a suitable one....if things are going as bad as you say, it may be advantageous to have members sit out for others.

    Besides, it will give them some time to study haha. No excuse to not study if you don't get a spot in a raid....you were planning on doing something wow related anyways right?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Kuna, Idaho
    Sounds like you are a casual guild that decided to raid. It's only going to cause you problems if you try to 'ninja-change' the guild into a progressoin raiding guild environment.

    Explain that it wastes a lot of time to re-explain fights over and over to people, and have to cover every little detail and gotcha of a fight before the pull. Easily a few hours when you add it up. One way to get people in the mode is to start on time, end on time, and pull like mad between bosses. Find that one or two things that must be covered, hit that and then pull. If you stand around explaining something for 5+ minutes, I'll guarantee people are not listening, and/or went AFK. Keep the pressure on, get things done faster and end on time.

    I can tell you from experience that if you explain every little detail to people, they won't do any homework of their own. People will assume they will get instructions at the boss and not take the time. Count on it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Especially during the development stage of a guild getting used to raiding, you need to get used to doing boss explanations over and over and over again. 5 months after clearing Karazhan when we grossly outgeared it, I was still explaining the fights. The key is learning how to do it quickly.

    If the whole group has been there before just highlight the common error areas, if there's a new person... focus your explanation on what they need to do. As to issues like people talking on vent saying useless stuff, you need to constantly tell people to not do this until it becomes a habit. There are very few fights where you immediately need to know that a rogue is dead for instance. I'd immediately tell anyone who said, "heal me" to zip it and then clarify after the raid that vent needs to only be used for what's really relevant to the fight as a whole not your personal survival.

    When it comes to a group with a lot of people new to raiding, you're going to have to baby them a lot. It's just the way it goes. It took my group anywhere from 3 to 6 months to learn many things that I would consider the fundamentals of raiding that you're unfortunately experiencing. (many of my guys still don't read strats, years later)

    The important thing is learning how to utilize each person's unique skill set. There is no perfect raider, not even yourself. So be patient, repeat yourself a lot and try to keep a good attitude.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    This is just my opinion, but I agree about just not explaining it in detail just a brief overview...what this does is that it filters out you're real raiders from the guys just taking a spot in the raid.

    One of the highest progressed guilds in dunemaul would never spend more than 1-2 minutes giving an overview of what needed to happen and the rest was left to the raiders to figure out and if they knew what they needed to do, you would kill the boss if not...well we know what the alternative is.

    Besides, none of the content is that hard to grasp...I remember wasting SO MUCH time explaining lady vashj.. /wrists

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Thank you all for your kind and quick replies. I think i can do a lot with your advice.

    Tonight we went in to kill (attempt) heigan the Unclean, 2nd boss in plague quarter. Well its difficult to do the dance all together, i must admit. But after 8 wipes and people still spamming the chat and ventrilo channel making jokes all the time, i was really pissed off and called it a day.

    You know what it is? I spent many hours browsing the web and watching tactics in video's, writing everything on our forums what they should know, and only 4 of the 10 players did actually read the stuff. Everytime those 4 people where the last alive ones, while the 'jokers' could not even stay alive in the 1st phase of the fight.

    on a certain moment I asked every one kindly to keep the channel clear and only use it when its nesesary and raid related. They kind of ignored that. When i warned them the second time, i told them if they can not stop it, I will mute them on the channel so the rest can focus on the game. then people started to feel irritated and started argu.

    Right now i have all those people suspended for doing raids for the next 2 weeks, and will form a group with the ones who actually can behave.
    dont know what may happen, maybe they even step out of the guild. But hey, if that is what it takes, thats the price to keep the rest going, who are well willing to focus serious about the game.

    And yes, we are a casual guild, but the high levels all asked us to do raids, so we started that. But now the time for raiding has come, some seem not be able to get the idea at all.
    Since I am responsible to set everything up and lead the raids, I get very pissed, when I see people just joking arround instead of fucus on the game.

    Also the gear part... there are some players that always play with their low level alts, and doesnt seem to be interested doing any heroics to grind gear at all. They just step in the raid and expect the rest to cover their ass. Not my idea for raiding in any kind....

    Anyhow, thanks for the advice. It seems i need to get a bit harder during them and worry less about the polightness. Suspending will (maybe) open their eyes... Time will learn.....



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Sorry to hear about your problems. It's not going to be easy having this transition.

    We faced (still face) similar issues now, even though we can clear Naxx and Sarth with 1 drake up. We have people coming late, not signing up for raids, not gemming or enchanting, not knowing fights, etc, etc. Unfortunately, part of the problem is that current raid content is so easy that people can get carried through it and these people begin to believe that they are entitled to raid.

    Hopefully your message of tough love works .... all the best.

  9. #9
    I am suspicious that the GM of this guild is one of the jokers, and the other people are following his example. It does not sounds like they are following you and I am guessing they are following someone else.

    It sounds like a pretty poor group of people, and I wouldn't waste my time with them if I had any other alternative.

    Having to explain stuff at the start isn't as big a deal. I assume that nobody has any idea about any new boss, so I just explain it, or let someone who has done it explain it. I can read for hours and still have little idea how the fight really works, since I'm an experiential learner. You might have some of those in your raid, but it's more likely you have a bunch of boneheads.

    It's bad if you have to take the people you can get. If you don't, and still want to expend time on this bunch, you need to take charge of deciding who goes and what they do when they get in there. You may not be able to go, if they are just a bunch of jokers who won't upgrade their gear and put enchants and augments on it and so on.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Agree - only the GM is one of the serious players.
    We stil have 10+ lvl80 who are serious about gear and spent time and money to enchant and gem it definatly.

    So the next few times i will form a group with those people and the rest can just wait and see when we willl actually make progression in this.
    Maybe that will let them open their eyes and wonder why they where not participating in that.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009


    I run a raiding guild and ive found that the hardest transition can be between casual, social to Casual/hardcore raiding guild. Always try to move slowly and work from between 8 hours raiding a week and try and add 2 hours every 2 weeks, adding 1 additional day every month.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    I am one of the leaders of a guild which raid 3 days, 4 hours of raiding.
    We've killed sartharion heroic with 3 drakes.

    When someone ask about my guild, I tell em we're a friendly bunch of people which happen to raid. But when we raid we do it seriously.

    The social aspect of the game is very important to me and to our guild. But raiding is raiding. You come prepared and do the same effort needed as the other people or we will find someone to replace you. If I have a choice between someone who has been 80 for two weeks and has a lot of heroic gear, some nax 10, all enchanted and someone else, 80 for two months, missing enchants, not working metagems, I know who I'm going to choose.

    We do the raid with about 4 people who set out strats, I have given up expecting everyone to read tactics. And just explain them the first tries. If you're a tank, get 1 trusted skilled ranged member who can help you set out strats on fights and also a healer would be nice.

    I joke around a lot, but I am very very very clear when joking has to stop. Before new bosses: there's silence on vent AND in raidchat. When we wipe on a farm boss, next try silence and concentration on vent and raidchat.
    And about suggestions: 10 raiders==10 different ideas how to get a boss down. (or even 25) In the end we go with 1 tactic. That doesn't mean your ideas are not valued, but we speak on vent or in guildchat AFTER or BEFORE the raid about changing tactics. If it really really valuable and you need to tell it now, also you don't type it in raidchat or vent but whisper it to me.

    That's what keeps the bunch of us a bit organized.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Our guild has had its ups & downs too re raiding. Here's what we've learned:

    1. Keep explanations short, only focusing on the important bits. If it's a multiphase fight, explain all phases once & quickly, then go in to wipe a few times. Nobody wants to listen to phase 5 before they've seen phase 1. And anyway, all wow raiding can be distilled down to 5 rules: a) Dont die, b) Nuke, c) Dont stand in stuff, d) Bunch up/spread out e) dispel/decurse
    2. Keep trash pulls fast & furious.
    3. There's a hard rule we employ - NOBODY says heal me or i'm dead. The healers are the only people in a raid guaranteed to have everybody's healthbar up in front of them. They know if you need healing or not or if you're dead. It keeps the healers minds healthy.
    4. For people new to an encounter - and there will always be somebody new - assign a mentor who will privately explain the specially important details. Explaining the fight will always be there, get used to it, and, as has been suggested, find a way of doing it fast & clearly.

    Now to the even more important points that i think you're missing out on:
    1) DONT BURN OUT: At your current pace & effort, you'll quickly burn out. Rope in some others to share the burden. Let them raidlead at regular intervals too so they know what you're putting up with. Great education, trust me.
    2) WALK THE TALK: If you ask them to keep vent clear & they dont, dont go around threatening, just outright mute them, for example. People should know that when you talk, you mean business
    3) IF IT'S BROKE, FIX IT: What greendragonempire said: "Motivate people by recruiting better players to replace them. Only thing that works." Now read that to yourself & other officers. Repeat at every login :P

    Some of these sound harsh & somewhat out of place in a casual guild. Yes. But you can tone it properly. For example, we had 4 freeloaders last night. After spending 1 hour on Thaddius because people didnt listed to Vent and/or just plain acted stupid, the threat to deduct DKP & ban from future raids was announced. (First time in our guilds 4 year history) Near perfect Thaddius kill the next try. Carrots dont work without sticks. Best stick in a casual guild is a large population

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    It's nice to know that it's not just us who have this problem! We're a social with serious raiding aspirations guild too.

    There will always be those who never read up and expect to be spoon fed.

    We insist that all our raiders are signed up to the guild forum before they can raid so that they can access the links.
    We tell the guild which boss is going to be new on the next night's raid and ask for at least a video watch.
    We now have a "hands up who hasn't seen the video?" before the pull, people have learnt to admit it if they havent, because if noone says so then we go straight in with the minimum info.
    For new bosses we have a quick explanation from someone who thinks they understand the fight over vent, leave out something vital and people will start filling in the gaps...( i can just see them jumping up and down in their seats with their hands up saying "miss, miss, miss" :P)
    If there is obviously a total lack of understanding- eg Heigan, Grobbulus, we call the raid early, really early and state that we dont waste gold on unneccessary wipes.

    Our newest strategy for all our new DPS 80s (tanks and healers are the officers) is to insist on a screenie posted on the forum of them hitting the epic target dummy all out to prove a minimum DPS- we've specified 1600 self buffed for 10 man Naxx. Means they've read the GTOTD, done the drill, been to the forum and posted- shows motivation, although takes 10 mins... it's getting some healthy competition going

    We also inspect for food and pots prior to the start.

    We have the opposite problem on vent- too quiet, i'm working on getting more people talking.

    Fast pulls is a must to stop people wandering off to go to the toilet, make a phone call, smoke, get/cook a meal, pop out to the shop for beer (yes that happened!), walk the dog ( yes we took a raid break for that too!!!!!!) and fast move on after each boss into next mob or that turns into a delay too.

    We gave up on the calendar- so we have a be "be online on your main at x o'clock for invites, we wait 10 mins and raid is cancelled if not enough" rule

    Our guild is too small to allow us to reliably kick someone out of raid who isnt pulling their weight and get a replacement in, so we dont do that.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Tauranga, New Zealand
    The great think about LK is that with class homogenisation and the entry level of the raids you can swap players easily. So you are in a good position to swap out the guys who aren't focussed for a couple who are.

    Vent is a mixed bag, most fights the only person who needs to be talking is the raid leader, some (ones with adds especially) require some communication from other players.

    Try to simplify your commands. For example on Heigan many raid leaders will explain over and over the quarters of the room and the sequence but in the end the foolproof method is to put a symbol on your head and tell them to stick to the symbol like glue in phase 2. As long as you're safe so are they and honestly if they can't stand on top of a symbol then you have bigger problems

    Raid leading can be frustrating and it's a bit of a thankless job but in the end it's great when it works out. Be prepared to put in the hard yards though and remember that much of the time you are the only one who needs to really grasp the ins and outs of every fight, a lot of other players can get away with just the basics that they need to know.
    Raid Leader, GM and Meat Shield. Shadow, Firetree Horde

  16. #16
    I had these same problems a couple of years back, with the added stress of the GM being a RL friend. I gave it 6 good months, and they still didn't "get it". So I started my own guild, where we have fun, joke around, AND kill bosses. Not saying your situation is hopeless, but remember this is a game and it needs to be fun for you too.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008

    Movies and quizes

    I make it a requirement for all our raiders to watch Cider's fight movies. If I think they are trying to pull the wool over my eyes, I'll pop-quiz them right there on Vent. I've only had one person fail a pop-quiz. We all took a 10-minute break at that point for him to go watch the video for Grob. At the minor cost of his embarrassment for not doing his homework ahead of time... we 1-shotted Grob the first time we fought him and every time since... and, nobody skips watching those movies. I still cover some key points in vent before the pull, but the bottom line is that I want to kill it, not talk about it behind it's back.
    Don't POP a blood vessel... It's just a game.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Milwaukee, WI
    I also am a Raid leader for a casual guild, my group is consistently doing 15/15 naxx 10 and we just this past week had our first go at a naxx 25 and did 6/15. I find in comparing my leading style to other raid leaders I apply the kiss method (Keep It Simple Stupid) I hit on the key points explain the phases quickly and tell them when appropriate to follow me like glue. We've gotten the Safety Dance Achievement twice now as a prime example. It might help that my group is my BC 10 man just raiding wrath instances now, I made sure to keep them raiding on a normal schedule up until the week wrath released. Once they hit 80 we all gravitated back together and continue to rock it out.

    Another thing that might assist you is running heroics with these guys on your downtimes perhaps they could learn by receiving some more focused advice outside of a raid. Stick to your goals, the rewards are there. I'd also suggest possibly doing one on ones with each of the troublemakers, maybe they just don't realize what they are doing?

    Keep at it


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    My own personal suggestion as RL/GM of my guild (which may be a tad more excessive than you'd like to do) would be to take only those that are willing to learn fights and are learning from wipes. As for the other remaining raid spots...find some decent PUGs.

    This would hopefully get the point across to the others(goof-offs/jokers) that you want everyone to perform in raids and if you're not seeing it from the guild then you're going to seek out the people that want the same thing. These jokers will either straighten up or leave. If they leave then good ridence since they're not a positive part of your raid environment. If you want to keep them because they're "friends" then you need to rethink what you really want to get out of raiding.

    Right now our guild is progressing OS +drakes (10/25) mostly because we're casual and people seem to show up whenever. When we do pull our raids together, everyone that's there is there 100% to raid or I boot them. I make sure everyone is gemmed/enchanted properly as well.

    Getting some to realize that Ulduar is coming and the requirements will stiffen is a somewhat difficult point to get across. I got so fed up with people showing to our raids without enchants/gems that I instituted "Anyone that shows up to a raid without gems or enchants forefits loot for that raid". You'd be surprised how many new enchants and gems I saw the next week. Sometimes you just have to dangle that carrot out there to get results.

    You'll get the "that's not fair...waaaa" response. Who is it not fair to, them, or the others that have their gear gemmed/enchanted and are carrying the dead weight? I think the latter is the truely "unfair" part.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Wow Web Stats

    It saved us A LOT of time by looking through combatlogs and actually check up on our members performance. We constantly keep up dps,healing,death counters etc through recount during our raids and I believe monitoring is important and makes people to focus a bit more.

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