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Thread: Warrior caps and diminishing returns

  1. #1
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    Warrior caps and diminishing returns

    Hello again, everyone. It's me, your favorite healer turned tank, here to bother you again!

    So, I'm curious about caps/diminishing returns. I recently posted an armory link where I was informed to not gem for parry and continue gemming for dodge. So, hence, my first question...

    What percentage of dodge do I need to be at for a warrior tank? I'm a little over 20% (20.2ish, I believe) in dodge.


    Now, onto my next question...
    Can someone give me a clear definition of diminishing returns?


    Next question...
    Expertise. How much of it should I have, and after I put Titanweave on my cloak, I will be sitting roughly at 544 defense. Where can I put any expertise enchants without hurting my overall defense?


    Next question...
    The mighty hit cap. Where should a main tank be, roughly?


    And my last nubish question for the day....
    What's the most efficient way to be a durable main tank without suffering blows to defense and stam? My warrior is sitting at 25.5k unbuffed HP, so I fear that taking hits on my stam would only hurt me.






    So, that's it...thanks for reading, and thanks for any input! You guys are all the best!

    All the best, K

  2. #2
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    Wow, I'd also love to see answers for some of these.
    Playing a warrior tank well is its own reward.

  3. #3
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    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...questions.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...ns-armour.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...e-ratings.html

    (search is your friend)

    As for "how much should I have" - nothing in the current content warrants stacking of avoidance in any way, so whatever you have is plenty. The Valor Medal trinket is a waste of badges. I'd rather gem for expertise/stam than dodge/stam.
    Last edited by Satrina; 02-01-2009 at 12:25 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Thank you for the links, I've found them helpful. However, outside of having to know calculus, how would one describe diminishing returns? :P

    ***EDIT: I'm saying, make it easier to understand for the non-number crunchers. I'm not trying to be rude or anything.
    Last edited by Krazen; 02-01-2009 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #5
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    I was informed to not gem for parry and continue gemming for dodge.
    i don't gem for either - my red slots get expertise/stam gems.

    however, i don't agree that you should ignore avoidance. patchwerk is a fight where avoidance is going to help your healers a ton - especially if your guild is still gearing up.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
    Thank you for the links, I've found them helpful. However, outside of having to know calculus, how would one describe diminishing returns? :P
    Diminishing returns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    (this is me not putting in the Bart Simpson google blackboard image)
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Diminishing returns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    (this is me not putting in the Bart Simpson google blackboard image)
    I think what he was meaning was NOT the definition of diminishing returns m8 but how they relate in lay mans terms to dodge parry etc

    for example at what % do the start noticably and what % does it become less effective to stack that stat etc

  8. #8
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    Well, there isn't a precise way out of sorting out the amounts(and no the necessary calculations are not college-degree level high school teaches it).

    On average, you don't really want parry over dodge at all. Parry trumps dodge once you have about 500 or so more dodge rating than parry rating, and that's only at a very low parry rating(0-100). Parry DR and baseline price are just too expensive to bother with more than "oh, there's some. Not bad.".

    My recommendation is that you just keep the parry pieces as extra pieces, and equip them with any upgrade to see if it's really an upgrade.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...questions.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...ns-armour.html
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...e-ratings.html

    (search is your friend)

    As for "how much should I have" - nothing in the current content warrants stacking of avoidance in any way, so whatever you have is plenty. The Valor Medal trinket is a waste of badges. I'd rather gem for expertise/stam than dodge/stam.

    This....

    Read it to the end, don't let your eyes glaze over when you see numbers... here I'll help with an easy one:
    - Optimal balance of defense:dodge is somewhere between 3:2 and 2:1

    Edit: PS: every question you asked is answered in those guides and no.. you don't need to do any math... just read.
    Last edited by Bogota; 02-02-2009 at 05:33 AM. Reason: clarification

  10. #10
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    diminishing returns made easy.
    You have 0 stat
    you get 100 of stat and gain 10 rating.
    You now have 100 stat and 10 rating
    You get 100 more of stat, but only gain 8 rating
    you now have 200 stat and 18 rating
    You get 100 more of stat, but only gain 6 rating.
    You now have 300 stat and 24 rating

    and so on and so on.

  11. #11
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    I think he meant more along the lines of...
    http://elitistjerks.com/attachments/...odgegraph2.png

    Which basically means, always dodge...


    For expertise you would like 26 expertise skill so that you can reach the dodge cap (boss can't dodge your attacks) it also takes a chunk out of their ability to parry you.
    Hit I would not worry too much about, but would stay above 100 if you could.


    As for where to get it I used the glove slot(mainly....,) the fury gloves are ideal for threat gen as a tank, they have high stam (more than prot ones) high str, high expertise and high hit. You can enchant them for 20 hit, 15 expertise, threat or even stam if you feel your low. However to do this you will want to pick up a defense trinket.

    The best way to be a durable tank is get upgrades. (simple I know right?)
    For example I'd aim for the trinket out of HoL (Seal of the Pantheon - Item - World of Warcraft) and the one out of heroic AN (Essence of Gossamer - Item - World of Warcraft)

  12. #12
    I think the OP is just confused by linking a thread full of math, which many would be. The simple answer is that diminishing returns don't really have an effect on your playing, they are only there to keep people from stacking dodge, for example, to get to 100% avoidance. Basically 10 dodge rating will always increase your ability to dodge by the same amount.

    If you're interested in a more detailed answer you'll actually need to pour over some math because it's alot more complicated than just that. However, the answer I gave should be enough for most people.

    edit(for example, you have 0% dodge and get 1% dodge, you are now dodging 1% more attacks. You have 90% dodge and get 1% dodge, you are now dodging 10% more attacks. Diminishing Returns just keeps it so that dodge rating is always worth the same amount of relative dodge no matter what you're at.)
    Last edited by Satrina; 02-02-2009 at 08:04 AM.

  13. #13
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    (whups, didn't mean to edit astemus' post O.o)

    Diminishing Returns just keeps it so that dodge rating is always worth the same amount of relative dodge no matter what you're at.
    Except that it doesn't. The returns (derivative returns, that is) aren't linear for avoidance as they are for armour.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hit Me View Post
    diminishing returns made easy.
    You have 0 stat
    you get 100 of stat and gain 10 rating.
    You now have 100 stat and 10 rating
    You get 100 more of stat, but only gain 8 rating
    you now have 200 stat and 18 rating
    You get 100 more of stat, but only gain 6 rating.
    You now have 300 stat and 24 rating

    and so on and so on.

    This is the style of answer I meant. There was no half mockery involved with this. But sure, next time I'll just type "diminishing returns" into google instead, because clearly it's almost code to be halfway rude when someone asks a halfway nubish question. I apologize if my understanding of tanking isn't up to standard; that's why I'm on TS in the first place.

    But, regardless of my half-frustration at some of the responses sounding mildly elitist and rude, I do appreciate them. Sometimes, it's the only way to learn, as much as I hate to admit it.


    ***EDIT: I'm sorry if I sound overly frustrated. I work a high stress job; WoW is my downtime. I really do appreciate the responses, and I know no one means to be rude or mock. I ask nubish questions because when it comes to tanking, I'm exactly that. I'm still learning. With my priest, I never had to worry about this much number crunching. I'm trying to be one of the better tanks out there, and I know TS is the best way to separate me from the rest. So again, I apologize, and the only reason I didn't remove my original response is because I felt that having a random apology would confuse people. I overreacted a little, and again, I apologize for that.

    All the best, K
    Last edited by Krazen; 02-02-2009 at 09:38 AM.

  15. #15
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    People who won't search irritate me and it comes out sometimes. By the same token, I could be less brief in what I respond with.

    I will note that the definition of diminishng returns is in the http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...ns-armour.html, and it includes that sort of simple step-by-step "here's how it works" illustration - which is precisely why I linked it as part of the set initially. Ah well, all this has inspired me to rework http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html a bit to also include a definition,
    Last edited by Satrina; 02-02-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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  16. #16
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    I understand, Satrina. I looked around a bit for Diminishing Returns, but I just decided that it would be far easier to ask questions that I hadn't seen asked. That way, I know that I asked the question instead of reading stuff that I wouldn't understand very well.

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