+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 62

Thread: Taunt change

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    726
    I have not had any issues with taunt since the patch. <shrug>

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    16
    QFT. Saw this happen yesterday with the understudies. One of the OT's got wacked and I went to pick it up. Taunted and after a couple seconds went after healer. I didn't understand what was going on and ppl yelling on vent to pick it up. I watched the threat meter and it didn't pick it up till after maybe the fifth taunt that I could hold him.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaegan View Post
    I have seen this for sure on Razuveous understudies. One of them got loose on us, and was headed for a healer; I taunted, hit him with shield slam, and he ran back to the healer. This happened three or four times in a row; taunt, high aggro move, and then he runs back to the healer. I was watching the threat meter after the first couple tries, and it was definitely acting wonky.

    These are the only mobs that I've seen it happen with, so I think maybe there's something going on there related to their aggro table / mind control / who knows.

  3. #43
    I had a similar problem with the razuveous understudy. I would taunt it, it would start running to me, then halfway, it would change its mind and start running back to the healer. I thought it was just me, but if others have been seeing the issue, then it may be a bug.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    65
    I had this happen on some of the trash in OS25 last week. We had a paly tank who had taunted a mob by accident off me, when I went to taunt it back off him, it just wouldn't stick. Everytime I taunted, it would focus me for a few seconds, then run back to him and he had stopped any and all threat generating moves on the mob. After 4 taunts, I ended up just getting behind it and doing a regular rotation which did pull it off. Other than that one moment though, taunt worked fine for me all week last week.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    103
    Really surprised this is still being argued. I know nothing of the theory, but Taunt's mechanics are well established. Taunt takes to you the top of the agro table. Nothing more, nothing less. If you just taunt and do nothing else (auto-attack or something) you WILL lose them after three seconds, not because you lose your threat, but because you don't gain more. If the DPS are out-threating you the taunt won't change that fact, merely delay it.

    I wonder if the OP's issue is not that taunt has been changed, but that DPS has? Perhaps DPS has been altered in such a way that they do more damage and get threat more easily? Maybe a stupid suggestion, but...

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    467
    we had this issue with the understudies deciding not to worry about the taunt and we concluded it was healing aggro from the healers as they are spamming the other understudies.

    Use a quick MD or make sure your slapping the understudy as soon as you taunt him and keep smashing his face in and its fine.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitegold View Post
    Really surprised this is still being argued. I know nothing of the theory, but Taunt's mechanics are well established. Taunt takes to you the top of the agro table. Nothing more, nothing less. If you just taunt and do nothing else (auto-attack or something) you WILL lose them after three seconds, not because you lose your threat, but because you don't gain more. If the DPS are out-threating you the taunt won't change that fact, merely delay it.

    I wonder if the OP's issue is not that taunt has been changed, but that DPS has? Perhaps DPS has been altered in such a way that they do more damage and get threat more easily? Maybe a stupid suggestion, but...
    Taunt's mechanics are well-estabished as are aggro-pulling mechanics.

    Taunt gives you equal threat to the person at the top of the list. Taunt forces the mob to attack you for 3 seconds, regardless of threat. That part you covered.

    However, aggro-pulling mechanics state that another player has to surpass the current aggro target by 10% to pull aggro. Taunting should not allow for a low-threat generating player to return to the top of the aggro list after the 3 second 'forced' taunt in 95% of cases. It should certainly not allow for a low-threat generating player to return to the top of the aggro list after a taunt AND shield slam AND additional attacks.

    (This is why if you have the Blizzard threat module turned on nameplates when you taunt the outline is orange rather than red--as you match the threat of someone else, they are within the 'danger' zone of pulling aggro as defined until you pull ahead by more than a certain percentage. But you still should have aggro unless they surpass you by 10%.)

    Additionally, this threshold should be extended further in the case of ranged healers or dps, which gain additional reduction on threat generation from range.

    The stated observations of many that, for instance, a tank taunts off a healer with aggro, lays on a shield slam or a few other abilities, and then watches the mob instantly return to the healer after the 3 second debuff wears off is very, very abnormal.

    I have been tanking for 4 years and have observed this happening prior to the patch less times in all those years of raiding than the number times I have seen it since last Wed.

    I've seen it happen on multiple trash mobs, Razuvious adds, Sartharion flame adds, and Gluth in the last week. Honestly, there are not many occassions to 'test' this within raids as taunting is generally not used very often anymore and in the event of an aggro pull on trash usually the mob is dead within the 3s duration anyway. However, there are certain things that do not seem to be acting as normal and all the tanks in my guild have made a comment about it at some point during the week.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 02-03-2009 at 03:51 AM.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    7
    I think this is related. I did Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle last night and noticed that when Skadi whirlwinds and targets another player (and I successfully taunted him) it would last the 3 seconds and he returned back to the original player. I've tried to find out if he randomly changes targets throughout the whirlwind but according to WoW wiki/wowhead its only at the start of the whirlwind. It made the encounter a lot harder as the other players were usually stuck in a corner when he whirlwinded. Made us wipe a couple of times on what should've been a fairly straight forward run.
    All your threats are belong to me

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Thox View Post
    I think this is related. I did Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle last night and noticed that when Skadi whirlwinds and targets another player (and I successfully taunted him) it would last the 3 seconds and he returned back to the original player. I've tried to find out if he randomly changes targets throughout the whirlwind but according to WoW wiki/wowhead its only at the start of the whirlwind. It made the encounter a lot harder as the other players were usually stuck in a corner when he whirlwinded. Made us wipe a couple of times on what should've been a fairly straight forward run.
    That's because Skadi randomly picks a person and aggroes that person for the duration of the whirlwind. The taunt there only covers it's fixate duration.

    If you happen to still be at the top of the threat after whirlwind is over, he'll beeline to you as soon as he's done spinning.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    7
    Cheers for clarifying that,
    All your threats are belong to me

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Istanbul
    Posts
    612
    I've done Gluth25 with zero problems with taunt (OT was a bear). Razuv tonight.

    Tbh, i personally try not to rely on taunt (excepting hard cases like Gluth). I prefer to megadump threat & pull aggro that way - meaning my taunt is nearly always available as backup rather than the primary. I make a point of practicing this on trash pulls by trying to pry off mobs from the other tanks.

    If you're looking at Omen for threat (those claiming the threat doesnt move on taunt) even the new version takes a tick or two to sometimes update new threat. And if everyone keeps doing what they do, odds are threat bar order will stay the same. I really like Heroic Throw to backup a taunt when one is needed. It makes sure i have a safe lead in case the mob has to run some & dps/healers are spamhappy.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    That's because Skadi randomly picks a person and aggroes that person for the duration of the whirlwind. The taunt there only covers it's fixate duration.

    If you happen to still be at the top of the threat after whirlwind is over, he'll beeline to you as soon as he's done spinning.
    I'm fairly certain that whirlwind cannot target the main tank without a fixate ability being used. I've never had him go after myself without a taunt/mocking blow.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    134
    3 seconds = 3 GCD's, more like 2 because your not going to be able to spam a SS after the taunt until you see that the taunt landed. So after the taunt the best your going to get is a SS and maybe a revenge and 1 white swing if you are lucky.

    Healers are spamming heals the whole time, big heals. Now in a normal circumstance your healer isn't going to toss out a 13k heal right after a pull, but they sure could during the middle of a high damage fight. If the threat total is 100k, they only have to do 10k to pull aggro. At 4.5 tps that's only 2 a little over 2 seconds for them to pass the 10% mark and another gcd for them to catch up again to your SS and Rev, and the next second they pass you again.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Grimace View Post
    I'm fairly certain that whirlwind cannot target the main tank without a fixate ability being used. I've never had him go after myself without a taunt/mocking blow.
    Get away from my mushrooms, sir.



    Quote Originally Posted by Argamasilla View Post
    3 seconds = 3 GCD's, more like 2 because your not going to be able to spam a SS after the taunt until you see that the taunt landed. So after the taunt the best your going to get is a SS and maybe a revenge and 1 white swing if you are lucky.

    Healers are spamming heals the whole time, big heals. Now in a normal circumstance your healer isn't going to toss out a 13k heal right after a pull, but they sure could during the middle of a high damage fight. If the threat total is 100k, they only have to do 10k to pull aggro. At 4.5 tps that's only 2 a little over 2 seconds for them to pass the 10% mark and another gcd for them to catch up again to your SS and Rev, and the next second they pass you again.
    And it's only 10% if the healer's in melee range. 100k threat is quite a small number actually. 25 seconds into a fight that number is already out. More or less what it takes to kill big trash, though 10k threat is like 22k healing.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,477
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Grimace View Post
    I'm fairly certain that whirlwind cannot target the main tank without a fixate ability being used. I've never had him go after myself without a taunt/mocking blow.
    I have.
    風林火山陰雷

    ಠ ,ಠ
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - it's time to roll the dice

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    And it's only 10% if the healer's in melee range. 100k threat is quite a small number actually. 25 seconds into a fight that number is already out. More or less what it takes to kill big trash, though 10k threat is like 22k healing.
    Yeah, honestly I don't really see how the healing aggro argument can work.

    A single shield slam will deal, on average, something like 6.5-6.8k threat just by itself. Count in that, a Devastate, and 2-3 white swings and you're looking at 10-12k threat without any trouble at all in 3 seconds. (Revenge would be more, plus Damage Shield ticks, plus a Deep Wounds tick if the Shield Slam crit initially.)

    A healer would have to heal a ridiculous amount in 3 seconds to overcome that. Healing aggro is split between known targets and as a healer will, at the very least, be on the hatelist of both the add and the boss it would be halved at a minmum--in addition to the 2:1 healing to threat ratio.

    So, if we're presuming that a healer is healing for 45-60k in 3 seconds, in addition to being in melee range, in addition to not being on the hatelist of other adds in the vicinity, that's just not very likely.

    Even presuming the add only went to a healer from proximity aggro, so the taunt basically gave no substantial bonus threat, it would seem that a healer would need to heal for (even with 'low' aggro generation from the tank):
    10000 *1.1 * 2 * 2 = 44000

    This would be to pull aggro from an average Shield Slam + White Attacks in a 3 second period on an add with an active boss present.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 02-04-2009 at 06:57 AM.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    134
    Specifically on the mind control fight, I would bet that the aggro table gets reset when either the priest MC's or the Control Pillar (10 man) is used. So at the point when the mob is released its threat is at 0.

    I agree with your assesment at 100k threat. But how about those first few seconds after the mob is released, when threat is 0-5k soley from healing aggro, which is what causes the mob to go directly to the healer.

    Now when you are taunting, you are only moving to something like 1k-5k, making the 10% 100 to 500 threat.

    Also we are talking about 3 seconds from the taunt, unless you are expecting this mob to run back to the healer, which people are not as they are posting this behaviour as a surprise, your not going to be hitting SS, Dev, and Rev perfectly using your 3 GCD's. More likely your going to taunt, then hit the SS about .5-.75 seconds after the taunt. Even with a fast weapon your only going to get at best 2 white swings (1.6), and the mob doesn't likely have any bleed on it because it was just friendly a moment ago. Maybe you'll get lucky and have SS crit, but its still only going to be 2 ticks. So if you were really expecting to have to pull a mob off and do everything to make it stick to you in 3 seconds you could generate the 10-12K, but more realistically, and in line with the posters being surprised by losing threat, your only going to get about 7k from the SS and a couple of white swings.

    Can a healer jump in here and give us an example of how much healing you can do in 3-5 seconds?

    Our pally consistently hits me with 13k heals but I never stopped to ask how long that cast time was. Assuming its quick enough to get in 2, that's 26k, using your formula in reverse is 6k threat x 2 mobs.

    7K is still greater than 6K but its looking a lot more feasible...

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,405
    Pallies specifically still have low-threat heal, don't they? It's like half the threat a normal heal produces...

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    134
    Possibly, but I was only using that as an example of the size of the heals that are being cast.

    To be less specific, I like Taunt. It irks me when I see the term 'crutch' used. Its one of our tools, its there to be used. The developers specifically gave paladins a single target taunt. Taunt is not a 'gimick', but its also not a cure-all. When blizz is balancing boss encounters, you can bet that they assume Taunt is going to be used. In some cases they make the boss immune to taunt, some cases they use aggro resets, and in others taunting is part of the strategy.

    I got a little sideways here in the details of this thread, but the point I was trying to make is that Taunt is still working for me as expected, and there are many possible reasons, especially on a boss fight, where Taunt may NOT work as you WANT it to.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by Agmar View Post
    Creatan, not to flame, but you're just so dead wrong that I now have a headache.


    Yup, that's a flame.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts