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Thread: Keeping up with the AOE tanks as a war

  1. #1

    Keeping up with the AOE tanks as a war

    Greetings,

    I am an Off tank in Naxx for both 25 and 10 man raids. I also am having a major problem keeping up with the MT's in threat generation. I am using the rotation or rather priority list outlined here Tanking "Cycle" and Priorities - Elitist Jerks And this is my gear and spec The World of Warcraft Armory

    Now here is the competition for other guild raider tanks.
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    I know i am outgeared, out gemmed and out chanted. My main question is what gear/chants/gems should i be getting so that i can exceed their Threat per second or at least keep up. Because i would eventually like to MT for this guild. Right now i am about 500 TPS behind. Any insight would be appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Well as a starter there is a enchant for 2%threat for gloves and also a meta for 2%theat and ofcourse stamina.

  3. #3
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    If your competition is better geared and equally skilled there really isn't a lot you can do except get better gear.

  4. #4
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    His competition are also difference classes - druid, DK, and Paladin. So there might not be a lot you can do, until you out gear them.

  5. #5
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    Warriors are very gear dependent, that's just how it goes.

  6. #6
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    What situation are we talking? Trash clearing, tanking adds during a boss fight, what exactly?

    AOE tanking for a Warrior simply requires a lot more work than it does for the other classes, work meaning button presses. That's the first thing you have working against you, the rest is gear and possibly even keybindings, latency, anything else you can throw in the soup for why your TPS is lower. For one thing, Thunderclap doesn't stay on the ground and tick for damage for 8 seconds. For another, larger groups of mobs register larger TPS numbers. Remember the wartlocks that could pull 3000+ DPS in TBC with seed of suicide? same principal.

    You are probably looking at a mix of gear upgrades and fine tuning your AOE tanking to close the gap.

  7. #7
    On general trash pulls on an individual target i can mostly stay ahead. If there is a substantial group of mobs i can not spread enough threat around fast enough to keep up. a good example is ToS 25 man. there are groups of 4 and 4 tanks. i have occasional trouble KEEPING mine to myself because there is so much aoe threat generated from the other 3 I can do it but it is much more difficult than it should be. granted they are all in T7+ but is there some way for wars to keep up with all these AoE tanks that i am just unaware other than seriously outgearing them?

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    I don't know that my method is best, but here is what I do:

    Set your Vigilance on one of the tanks in your raid. Then after the pull Taunt your Primary Target and Shield Slam. Taunt Your Secondary Target (thanks to vigilance) and Thunder Clap. Now, back your two, or more, targets off to the side so that you to avoid other tanks AOE and to keep a better eye on them.

    If I can't get all the my mobs I don't worry about it. I just get what I can and keep an eye on the other tanks. If they begin to buckel I go back in and taunt off one of their mobs (pref. the one I missed). I know the ones I've been working on aren't going to leave me. I'm WAY, WAY up on their aggro table.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekt View Post
    I don't know that my method is best, but here is what I do:

    Set your Vigilance on one of the tanks in your raid. Then after the pull Taunt your Primary Target and Shield Slam. Taunt Your Secondary Target (thanks to vigilance) and Thunder Clap. Now, back your two, or more, targets off to the side so that you to avoid other tanks AOE and to keep a better eye on them.

    If I can't get all the my mobs I don't worry about it. I just get what I can and keep an eye on the other tanks. If they begin to buckel I go back in and taunt off one of their mobs (pref. the one I missed). I know the ones I've been working on aren't going to leave me. I'm WAY, WAY up on their aggro table.
    If you were tanking in my guild and you tossed vigilance on another tank to inflate your numbers "unless instructed to... i.e sarth3d" I would probably remove you from my raid. Put it on an aoe heavy dps class to protect them... not to try to show up other tanks. Those other tanks have the same responsibility as you, keep everyone alive.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    If you were tanking in my guild and you tossed vigilance on another tank to inflate your numbers "unless instructed to... i.e sarth3d" I would probably remove you from my raid. Put it on an aoe heavy dps class to protect them... not to try to show up other tanks. Those other tanks have the same responsibility as you, keep everyone alive.
    If you would stop us tanks from vigilancing each other, I would probably remove you as well Us warrior tanks always vigilance each other, for the taunt refresh and the 3% less dmg taken. On normal trash pulls, there is only one way a mob will get loose and chase a dps, and this is if NO tank has hit him with anything substantial. In this case, there is no way the 10% threat transfer would have kept the mob with us tanks anyway, so the taunt refresh is much more useful.

    We value it much more to have as much threat as possible spread between us tank anyway, just in case a tank dies because he pulled a second (more likely a third) group with just one or two healers paying attention, since we pull pretty reckless.

  11. #11
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    He only said that he was running 1 prot warrior so he's not sharing vigilance's with another warrior.

    If your dps isn't within that 10% of pulling threat on you on big pulls then you are moving pretty slow through the instance... chain pulling w/ high dps makes raid weeks nice and quick until new content comes out.

    Tank A puts out 50k threat

    Tank B puts out 35k threat

    Tank B = prot warr who wants to look good and pops vigilance on Tank A

    Now your dps is pulling agro a ~5k threat quicker just so Tank B can look like their doing there job better... and Tank B is still not tanking any mobs... and who really ever has to use taunt very often?

  12. #12
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    but like you said... if you have 2 prot wars vigilancing each other then i'd deserve a kick balls for giving you crap.

  13. #13
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    Now your dps is pulling agro a ~5k threat quicker just so Tank B can look like their doing there job better... and Tank B is still not tanking any mobs... and who really ever has to use taunt very often?
    In theory that sounds right but in practice it doesn't matter. If your raid dps is that high then the trash isn't going to live long enough for someone to pull aggro, or if they do then it's dying in a few seconds anyway.

    The two typical times that I've noticed dps pull is at the start (before a tank does anything) or when another group of mobs add. In those cases, having vigilance on a tank (any tank) makes it extremely easy to round up loose mobs.

    The utility of taunt being refreshed for every GCD is the best part of the vigilance and then the extra threat being a close 2nd (imho). The damage reduction is not enough to really save a dps or healer.

    Kicking someone from a raid for using Vig on another tank is just a dumb idea

  14. #14
    I've found that in AoE-tanking situations in 25-mans, I just can't keep up as a warrior. No matter how hard I spam thunderclap and shockwave, a DK or Paladin OT, even in considerably worse gear, will pull everything right off me. On the plus side, no AoE DPS is going to pull off them either, so it doesn't matter.

    If your pride hurts, just know that you should beat DKs and paladins in single-target threat, all other things being equal. True of DKs more than paladins.

    I don't really have much experience with druid OTs, so I can't speak to that.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post

    Tank A puts out 50k threat

    Tank B puts out 35k threat

    Tank B = prot warr who wants to look good and pops vigilance on Tank A

    Now your dps is pulling agro a ~5k threat quicker just so Tank B can look like their doing there job better... and Tank B is still not tanking any mobs... and who really ever has to use taunt very often?

    Um, it sounds more like Tank B is doing what he should be doing namely using vigilance to keep his threat well above the DPS so they can go all out and so he is prepared to back up the MT in case of an emergency. Sounds like the Prot. Warrior you want to boot is going out of his way to do his job.

  16. #16
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    Why are you even trying to pull mobs off of the other tanks? Short of saving a bad/over pull I can't see a justifiable reason for doing this. Look for mobs that DPS pulls off another tank and grab them. If none exist, sunder up the mobs about to be focused to get the pulls over with faster.

    Warriors are not designed for great sustained AoE TPS - their strength lies in their superior burst AoE threat and mobility. Use that to start the pull and keep the mobs on top of you until the other tanks naturally pull some of the non focused mobs away.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekt View Post
    Set your Vigilance on one of the tanks in your raid. Then after the pull Taunt your Primary Target and Shield Slam. Taunt Your Secondary Target (thanks to vigilance) and Thunder Clap. Now, back your two, or more, targets off to the side so that you to avoid other tanks AOE and to keep a better eye on them.
    What you've just described, I would put another way: you are crutching poor threat generation technique with taunt spam. What are you going to do when every mob in the instance is untauntable? One of the biggest accessibility changes they made to Naxx was to make pretty much everything tauntable. If I had to bet, this would be one of the first things we see change in the later instances. I would strongly suggest you stop building bad habits.

  18. #18
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    Basically larson and swelt summarized what i meant to say in better ... and less blunt... words.

  19. #19
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    Warriors just can't hold up to an equally-geared paladin or DK in AoE tanking full pulls of mobs. Two or three maybe, but not the 5+ you'll run into in Naxx. That's just how it is for now.

    But we do put up a pretty darn good fight in the single-target department.

  20. #20
    That is how it should work:

    Make sure you are the one pulling the mobs. Gives you a good amount of rage and threat due to shield spikes, shield blocks, ret aura, blessing.
    Use a skilled TC and make sure your SW hits every tar even if you have to dance a bit ( that's how i'd do ).

    If you don't pull, don't even try to get the aggro by AoE ... you wont get it.
    Palas TPS is ridiculous, not worth a try.
    Good ferals are spamming tab and 2 buttons and your TPS is outplayed.
    DKs just use DnD or stuff and TPS is almost like a Prots one.

    Pick 2~3 mobs and use single tar aggro.
    Use Taunt, mb even vigilance on the MT to have no CD on it.
    Mocking Blow and Taunt rotation works nice and makes you at least tank 3 or more Mobs on your own.

    Aggro eq is kind of useless. I have one set with almost 2k more AP and it doesnt help very much.
    SBV will work if you are the one pulling. If not, it is useless for AoE aggro.

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