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Thread: Patchwerk - Hateful tank (warriors) problems

  1. #21
    Actually chain healing is a bad idea during this fight since the melee is trying to stay down on health by slime dancing so they can blow it out. Of course they can just dip again to wipe the heal off but then they're not dpsing. Just seems to be a waste. Not sure where pally healing the MT is a bad idea since he can do it himself quite easily and help out on the soaker with beacon.

  2. #22
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    Just to clear this up - there is no need for raid healing during this encounter like someone mentioned. Only your tanks should get healed. Ever. Which is fine because noone else will (or should) be taking damage!

  3. #23
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    But if you read what he said, he was chain healing through OT1 in order to give the armor buff (Ancestral Fortitude?) with the later bounces hitting MT/OT2. Afaik, chain heal is a very efficient heal for shaman, pretty much as good as their direct target heals, so harm done using that.

    Also if you have the pally healing the MT with beacon on someone else, and the MT isn't taking as much damage, isn't that under-utilising the value of the pally?

    What is a manamana anyway?

  4. #24
    Why is the melee staying down on health???

    "Patchwerk will use this ability at a 1 second frequency on the target in melee range with the highest HP who is also one of the top three on Patchwerk's aggro list. Cannot be used on the main tank unless there are no other targets. Does 79,000 to 81,000 raw physical damage which can mitigated by armour and parried/dodged. This is about 23,000 damage on a partially Naxxramas geared tank. This ability will add threat to the three most threatening on Patchwerk's aggro list."

    MT , OT1 , OT2 Thats three

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glomgore View Post
    This is a healer and DPS gear check, not so much tanks.
    :O
    Never seen anyone not making the enrage timer here. Thus it's NOT a DPS check, even if Blizzard intended it to be. They wastly undertuned that part.

    Quote Originally Posted by windergard View Post
    Actually chain healing is a bad idea during this fight since the melee is trying to stay down on health by slime dancing so they can blow it out.
    What are they doing in the slime unless you are going with only 2 tanks?

  6. #26
    There is a lot of confusion in here, so I figured I would share the wisdom garnered from my guild's experience and fairly extensive testing on this fight.

    First of all, more than likely, having just two tanks is better than using three. A well geared Warrior is amazing for MTing Patch, and two mediocre healers can keep him up, especially if you have Holy Paladins healing the Hateful Tank and they have Beacon on the MT. This allows you to put the majority of your healers on the HT.

    Second, a Druid is wonderful for HTing on Patch, simply because of the extra room to take multiple Hateful Strikes quickly and survive. It is just a fact of the fight, but it does not mean that you need a Druid, either.

    Recently, due to a shortage of healers, we have had our main Druid tank healing, and thus have had to rearrange how we do things. We have a Paladin MT Patch and myself take the Hatefuls. Unbuffed, I get my hitpoints over 30k, hit roughly 39k buffed, and we do it with these two things. Avoidance, however, is still very important. But, once you have a tank geared enough to do this, it is all healing at that point.

    Tips for a Warrior Hateful tank:
    *The pull is where you will most likely die. Healers need to heal preemptively, and this is when they fail to do so. It is time to give them some breathing room, so pop Last Stand immediately. Get your HP over 50k, get the boss debuffed and keep him that way.
    *As soon as Last Stand wears off, drink your 3500 Armor Potion. This gives you two minutes with more Armor. With the Armor buffs you can get from healers, you should be good. But, again, at this point, it is up to the Healers. You need to be able to take 45k damage in sometimes as little as 1.15 seconds. So, heals have to hit you constantly.
    *Holy Paladins should focus on Flash of Light, and that is it. The few thousand heals here and there will help you survive when needed, while the big heals might be a half second too late.
    *Save Shield Wall for when you get antsy, and even Enraged Regeneration can help. Communicate with your raid so they are aware of what you are doing and when things wear off, but this should not change the way they heal you in anyway.

    Sometimes, you will still get unlucky, that happens, but with five healers on you and two on the MT, you can do this fight fine as a Warrior soloing the Hateful Strikes.
    Loyalty above all, except Honor.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delicatesse View Post
    The offtanks take equal amount of damage if equally healed. The more you heal one of the offtanks, the more hits he/she will take. Why? Because hateful will hit the offtank with the higher health.

    To reiterate:
    Threat #1 = main tank, takes ~10-12K hits every second
    Threat #2 + #3 = offtanks, higher current health OT takes 20-25K hit every second. It's not threat related, it's health related.

    So put your best geared people into the first offtank role and assign more healers on him, he will become OT1 and will take more damage than OT2. Both offtanks must stay below MT threat.

    Melee threat MUST stay below MT and both OTs all the time. Ranged must stay below MT. Only people in melee range are subject to hatefuls.
    Yea, that's why 2 hateful tanks are best. And they NEED to be healed. For example

    OT #1 - takes hateful, 22k - 14k hp left
    OT #2 - takes hateful, 22k - 12k hp left

    OT #1 - takes hateful, 22k - dead

    That's how fast it can happen, healers need to precast and keep tanks hp over 25k and full if they can.

    EDIT: the slime reduces your hp by 50%, and is great for dps to either dip in or stand in as melee do not take any dmg and should never require healing.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by greendragonempire View Post
    EDIT: the slime reduces your hp by 50%, and is great for dps to either dip in or stand in as melee do not take any dmg and should never require healing.
    The Slime reduces your stats by 90%, I believe it is, it is not just your hitpoints. Your Stamina being reduced by 90% causes the drop in your Hitpoints. So, if you stand in it, you will not be doing any DPS, you must dip in and out, because all of your stats take the hit.

    As for two Hateful tanks, I have never had that work, ever. But, it could be the healers having issues with that. Healing one Hateful Tank just makes things so much more simple.
    Loyalty above all, except Honor.

  9. #29
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    i did last night and it was easy breezy i am mt in the raid but i had my ot main tank on patch while i took the hatefuls.......just keep heals and threat up so dps can go crazy and wam....free loots

  10. #30
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    There's about 100 Patchwerk threads in this forum, and at some point in all of them someone suggests melee dps dipping in and out of the slime to avoid Hateful Strikes.

    The only reason for melee to dip in the slime is that the tanks can't produce sufficient threat and the melee are not running omen or are too dumb to lay off dps before they get in the top 3. As long as tanks are on the top 3 on the aggro table (in melee range) then your melee dps could have 100k more HP than the tanks and still never see a Hateful.

    Please...stop dipping in the slime.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayho View Post
    The Slime reduces your stats by 90%, I believe it is, it is not just your hitpoints. Your Stamina being reduced by 90% causes the drop in your Hitpoints. So, if you stand in it, you will not be doing any DPS, you must dip in and out, because all of your stats take the hit.

    As for two Hateful tanks, I have never had that work, ever. But, it could be the healers having issues with that. Healing one Hateful Tank just makes things so much more simple.

    what?? no, and no.

    we use 2ots, and it IS possible to hit a high hp melee dps who is high on threat, so THUS you want all the melee to drop fort, and if possible hover around 50% hp so that their chances of being the 3rd highest in threat with the highest HP at the time is very VERY low.

    Scenario ..

    2ots took hatefuls are sitting at 14k hp ea - healers are slow to react

    rogue has 22k hp - rogue takes 30k hateful .. 1 shot kill

    CASE 2: rogue has removed fort and is slime dipping, in the SAME scenario, he will hover around 10k HP, MEANING if healers are slow to react, he should NEVER EVER be highest hp EVER.

    in fact with 1 ot it is an even better idea to have melee dps slime dip as a melee dps will always be #3 on threat behind mt, ot and in any case where their hp is > ot hp they will take the hateful and be insta gibbed

    in saying that i agree with healers massively spam healing 1 single take his hp should nearly always be at full, BUT, why not decrease the chance to almost 0% by having melee remove fort / dip
    Last edited by greendragonempire; 01-29-2009 at 09:03 AM.

  12. #32
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    don't forget indestructible potions, one pre pull, one during the course of the fight, also scales your threat thru AttT.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by greendragonempire View Post
    Scenario ..

    2ots took hatefuls are sitting at 14k hp ea - healers are slow to react

    rogue has 22k hp - rogue takes 30k hateful .. 1 shot kill
    I'm sorry, but due to the mechanic of how Patchwerk selects his hateful strike target, the rogue would only get hit if he became #3 on the aggro table. Period. End of discussion. The hateful strike will only evaluate the HP of #2 and #3 on aggro (players at range excluded).

    Source - Elitist Jerks
    The amount of misinformation surrounding hateful strike is amazing, even after 30+ months of original Naxx release.

    There are only two viable targets for hateful strike, and these are the two people 2nd and 3rd on his aggro list within melee range. Hateful strike will hit the highest HP person out of those 2. Additionally, hateful strike will add threat to the target it hits, which helps keep these tanks on that hateful strike list. This is the reason where if your 2 hateful tanks are low hp, he would still hateful one of them and kill them, disregarding the fact that there were melee dps with higher HP.

    Typically, the threat added by getting hit by a HS is more than enough to maintain these tanks on the hateful list, however there were occasions where tanks dropped off the list due melee dps pushing more threat than what HS gave your offtanks, but that was only seen during times where you'd run the old Naxx with level 70 people.

    Sinking your melee into the slime doesn't help anyone, it's just stupid and you should quit doing it.
    Source - Wowwiki.com Hateful Strike (heroic)
    Patchwerk will use this ability at a 1 second frequency on the target in melee range with the highest HP who is also one of the top three on Patchwerk's aggro list. Cannot be used on the main tank unless there are no other targets. Does 79,000 to 81,000 raw physical damage which can mitigated by armour and parried/dodged. This is about 23,000 damage on a partially Naxxramas geared tank. This ability will add threat to the three most threatening on Patchwerk's aggro list.
    If you look at it as steps in evaluation, assuming that your 3 tanks are the top 3 on the aggro table in melee range, then the other people in the raid might as well not exist because its already eliminated them as potential targets.

    If someone says "i've seen it happen and I know the tanks were top 3 on aggro..." I automatically think either the tank f'd up or the dps wasn't paying attention. If I'm wrong, then someone needs to update the wiki and (sarcasm)tell those amateurs over at EJ to get their shit straight.(/sarcasm)

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by greendragonempire View Post
    what?? no, and no.
    Did you even read what I said? I was refuting your statement about standing in the slime like a complete moron, because it reduces all of your stats by 90%. It does not just reduce your hitpoints by 50%, it reduces all stats, including Str and Agil and other melee needed stats, by 90% (you can correct me on the % if that is wrong). Either way, if your melee stand in the slime, their ability to do damage is significantly reduced because they have 70 strength instead of 700. They MUST dip in and out, and you just agreed with me with what you wrote, after stating I was wrong?

    As for dipping, it does seem to help when only using two tanks, and both our tanks in this fight have well over twice the threat than even the best melee, so that is a non-issue. As the poster above me has shown, if you use the two tank configuration, you will want to keep your melee low on Hitpoints so there is never an issue where a melee could potentially take a Hateful Strike. We have no issues and all the Hatefuls are targeted at me, because even after taking a Hateful there are no melee with more Hitpoints than myself.

    As of yet, I have not found anyone, that after trying this fight with two solid tanks, would ever go back to using two Hateful Tanks instead of just one. Perhaps you should try, as we did, a multitude of different configurations before spouting the only one that you used.
    Last edited by Bayho; 01-29-2009 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Clarification
    Loyalty above all, except Honor.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Krete View Post
    There's about 100 Patchwerk threads in this forum, and at some point in all of them someone suggests melee dps dipping in and out of the slime to avoid Hateful Strikes.

    The only reason for melee to dip in the slime is that the tanks can't produce sufficient threat and the melee are not running omen or are too dumb to lay off dps before they get in the top 3. As long as tanks are on the top 3 on the aggro table (in melee range) then your melee dps could have 100k more HP than the tanks and still never see a Hateful.

    Please...stop dipping in the slime.
    There is discussion of using two tanks for this fight which is a pretty common tactic. Melee HAS to slime dance in this scenario. Might want to try reading the thread before commenting haphazardly.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayho View Post
    Did you even read what I said? I was refuting your statement about standing in the slime like a complete moron, because it reduces all of your stats by 90%. It does not just reduce your hitpoints by 50%, it reduces all stats, including Str and Agil and other melee needed stats, by 90% (you can correct me on the % if that is wrong). Either way, if your melee stand in the slime, their ability to do damage is significantly reduced because they have 70 strength instead of 700. They MUST dip in and out, and you just agreed with me with what you wrote, after stating I was wrong?

    As for dipping, it does seem to help when only using two tanks, and both our tanks in this fight have well over twice the threat than even the best melee, so that is a non-issue. As the poster above me has shown, if you use the two tank configuration, you will want to keep your melee low on Hitpoints so there is never an issue where a melee could potentially take a Hateful Strike. We have no issues and all the Hatefuls are targeted at me, because even after taking a Hateful there are no melee with more Hitpoints than myself.

    As of yet, I have not found anyone, that after trying this fight with two solid tanks, would ever go back to using two Hateful Tanks instead of just one. Perhaps you should try, as we did, a multitude of different configurations before spouting the only one that you used.
    You are contradicting yourself, using just 1 OT is a great idea, but unless you slime dip your #1 dpser will be #3 threat and will take hatefuls if fully raid buffed without dipping.

    I think you are just confused. It's ok, many people get confused over the mechanics of hateful strikes.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by windergard View Post
    There is discussion of using two tanks for this fight which is a pretty common tactic. Melee HAS to slime dance in this scenario. Might want to try reading the thread before commenting haphazardly.
    Oh, I'm quite aware of a 2 tank tactic, but I disagree with slime dancing if you do the 2 tank tactic correctly. First, the OT needs to be a well geared feral tank. Second, the healers have to not fall asleep at the wheel and spam heal that OT. With HoTs rolling and heals always incoming on a bear tank lag would be your only enemy. You even said in your earlier post that the bear gets topped off so fast that its not even funny. Dipping would be redundant and an unnecessary loss in DPS.

    That being said, people can do as they wish. But, any tactic that involves slime dipping is fundamentally bad, IMO, because there is a measurable loss in dps that comes with it, extending the fight and putting undo stress on the healers in an already stressful healing encounter.
    Last edited by Krete; 01-29-2009 at 10:42 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by greendragonempire View Post
    You are contradicting yourself, using just 1 OT is a great idea, but unless you slime dip your #1 dpser will be #3 threat and will take hatefuls if fully raid buffed without dipping.

    I think you are just confused. It's ok, many people get confused over the mechanics of hateful strikes.
    Actually Bayho understands it exactly. He is saying that with the 2 tank option he wants his dps to dip in the slime. I think you misread.

    I understand it, he understands it, but we can still disagree about whether to use the slime mechanic or not

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Krete View Post
    Oh, I'm quite aware of a 2 tank tactic, but I disagree with slime dancing if you do the 2 tank tactic correctly. First, the OT needs to be a well geared feral tank. Second, the healers have to not fall asleep at the wheel and spam heal that OT. With HoTs rolling and heals always incoming on a bear tank lag would be your only enemy.

    That being said, people can do as they wish. But, any tactic that involves slime dipping is fundamentally bad, IMO, because there is a measurable loss in dps that comes with it, extending the fight and putting undo stress on the healers in an already stressful healing encounter.
    I do understand how it works. I've also seen our feral OT soak get hit for back to back hatefuls smoking him for 40k+ damage then the ret pally who wasn't dancing get the next hateful because he was sitting at full health of 26k. Things do happen so its just easier to take a step backwards into the slime then step forward to continue dpsing. Its probably takes a second to get the effect. With 6 heals we average about 3 1-/2 minutes on a patch kill which i'm sure can be tightened up and will be when we start swapping out heals for dps to do the achievement.

  20. #40
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    Like I said, if you choose to take that as another precautionary measure with that strat and it works for you, by all means, dip.

    My beef is with people that think they HAVE to do it with 3 tanks because either its misinformation or they've read a strat like yours with 2 tanks and didn't understand that the dipping isn't necessary with 3.

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