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Thread: Patchwerk - Hateful tank (warriors) problems

  1. #1
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    Patchwerk - Hateful tank (warriors) problems

    Hey guys,

    Having a bit of a problem on Patchwerk at the moment, I am one of the dedicated Hateful strike tanks. We have been running a Druid MT on the boss, two warriors (for hatefuls). Both of us are similiarly geared and are getting knocked down in about 1 minute. I beleive hateful strikes are not blockable, you can only dodge, parry them.

    I am taking around 16K dmg per shot. We had the highest mitigation abilties at our disposal up:
    - Vigilance on each other
    - Demo shout
    - Thunder clap
    I know there is a armor pot i must still try that increases armor by 2000+ for 4 min (can consume 2 in the fight)

    Yet keep on failing. We even put the druid in as a hateful running 40K HP+ raid buffed. Same problem.

    Here is my armory link: Armory

    PS: mistalented 2 points by mistake (15/5/50)

    Is this problem gear related? Or could it be the healers are falling short?

    I have also read that Def cap does not matter on this boss if u are soaking hatefuls. So can I put full avoidance gear on while maintaining a decent HP pool. It this true?

    Thanks in advance for your replies
    Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it.

  2. #2
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    21:35'31.125 Patchwerk Hateful Strike hits Militis for 25541 Physical. (2198 Blocked)

    Hatefuls are blockable. These hit for 20-24K on warrior tanks, when not blocked.

    Your gear is enough to tank Patch 25, but I really advise you to use the druid for offtanking. They are the best option to offtank these big hits.
    Tanks shouldn't really die there unless the healers try to be reactive (waiting for tanks to take damage before they heal). You must spam big heals nonstop, whatever happens. Put a healer with armor buff (priest or shaman) on each tank if possible.

    Create a heal assignment and make sure healers stick to it. If a druid is offtanking, he will take the most damage, the maintank (aggro #1) will take the second most, and the second offtank will take the least damage.
    Optimally you need 7 healers for this: 2 on MT, 3 on OT1 and 2 on OT2, maybe one of them watching out for other tanks (hotting them or such things)

    Vigilancing each other is a good idea, we always do that.
    Amplify magic is also useful on all the tanks.
    Hatefuls cannot crit, so you can drop your defense in favor of more sta/armor if you wish.
    Last edited by Delicatesse; 01-28-2009 at 04:45 AM.

  3. #3
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    The hatefuls are blockable.
    And on the dieing thing..what are your guys' avoidances? Patchwerk is a Healer ExtremeŽ fight. Unless the tanks commited some kind of gearing mistake, there's not much to do other than healing through hatefuls(he does a hateful strike once per second!)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaumu View Post
    PS: mistalented 2 points by mistake (15/5/50)
    No, I think you've mistalented a bit more than 2 points. Where's improved def stance and gag order? Imp HS? You could go read the forum for a 15/5/51 build. Given your current problems + gear level, and your role in the raid, I do wonder whether it's actually the most appropriate for you. It might be worth considering someone in your group getting improved demo shout (or warlock/druid equivalent), and if you are normally an offtank then perhaps it should be you.

    However my guess is it's a combination of gear, your technique and your healers technique.

    Gear:
    What's with the ZA parry trinket? Get yourself a Valor Medal of the First War - Item - World of Warcraft and keep it on cooldown. Enchant your cloak (steelweave is cheap if you can't afford titanweave), and re-enchant your bracers with +40 stam. Socket your gloves properly. Get a Armor Plated Combat Shotgun - Item - World of Warcraft if you can afford it, you won't easily find an upgrade so it's worth the investment.

    Technique:
    Now you know that block does something, you'll keep shield block on cooldown. When it's not up, use your trinket. When that's not up, cross your fingers and be ready to use other buttons if the healers seem to be falling behind... last stand, health stones, pots.

    I'd question whether you'd be better off with the druid eating hatefuls with one of the warriors tanking. Our healers prefer the bigger health pool of the druids for this. Rule of thumb is worst mitigation geared tank as the MT, focussing entirely on pushing max threat/dps with the offtanks worrying about keeping debuffs (e.g. tc/iw + demo).

    The rest is going to be down to healing technique, and that's not something I can advise on, other than to make sure that the healers understand the mechanics of the fight and the importance of them building a healing strategy that keeps the hateful tanks topped.


    Edit: and if you want more help than just guesswork and speculation, post a WWS report.
    Last edited by swelt; 01-28-2009 at 04:49 AM.

  5. #5
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    I was unaware that the 1st Threat hateful tank took more than the second. We were focusing our healers on both 2 each.

    Will try the tactic you suggested Delicatesse.

    As for my trinket/gear, I am waiting for Seal of Pantheon to drop so i can replace my cloak and a few other pieces which are all based around that item.

    With regard to the build, we had a incident where I had to change to Fury for a raid, then quickly change back to prot. So in the heat of the moment seemed to have mistalented more than 2 points as u pointed out. Those 2 points where the ones i saw straight away.

    Cool well thanks for all the replies let me put all of this info into action and will let you guys know how it goes.
    Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it.

  6. #6
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    i agree

    best geared prot warrior MT Patch. Highest geared Druid Ot for hatefuls, DK Ot or Pally Ot as 3rd OT soak up any other Hateful.

    healing spammage on TANKS.

    amplify magic

    all melee -- look after yourself.

    Works a treat
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaumu View Post
    I was unaware that the 1st Threat hateful tank took more than the second. We were focusing our healers on both 2 each.
    The offtanks take equal amount of damage if equally healed. The more you heal one of the offtanks, the more hits he/she will take. Why? Because hateful will hit the offtank with the higher health.

    To reiterate:
    Threat #1 = main tank, takes ~10-12K hits every second
    Threat #2 + #3 = offtanks, higher current health OT takes 20-25K hit every second. It's not threat related, it's health related.

    So put your best geared people into the first offtank role and assign more healers on him, he will become OT1 and will take more damage than OT2. Both offtanks must stay below MT threat.

    Melee threat MUST stay below MT and both OTs all the time. Ranged must stay below MT. Only people in melee range are subject to hatefuls.
    Last edited by Delicatesse; 01-28-2009 at 05:51 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaumu View Post
    With regard to the build, we had a incident where I had to change to Fury for a raid, then quickly change back to prot. So in the heat of the moment seemed to have mistalented more than 2 points as u pointed out. Those 2 points where the ones i saw straight away.
    Offtopic, but I recently fell in love with Talented - Addons - Curse

    Pre-make your standard templates, import them from wowhead/blizzard talent builders, never misclick again.

  9. #9
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    I would also recommend moving the druid to OT1 -- the higher HP pool is huge.

    Healing setup is key to the fight. Here is an example of a healer setup. It will really vary based on what types of healers you have.

    Pally 1 -- MT, Beacon on OT 1
    Pally 2 -- OT1, Beacon on OT2
    Shaman 1 -- Chain heal being cast on OT 1
    Priest 1 -- OT2, also Helps with MT healing with renew and shields
    Druid 1-- Rolling hots, and helping with low target on free GCD

    If you have pallys, make sure they work out their beacon's and are not wasting them.
    Shaman chain heals through a tank, but CH is key because of the armor debuff. If you have druids, make sure 1 is rolling hots on the tanks.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamor View Post
    I would also recommend moving the druid to OT1 -- the higher HP pool is huge.

    Healing setup is key to the fight. Here is an example of a healer setup. It will really vary based on what types of healers you have.

    Pally 1 -- MT, Beacon on OT 1
    Pally 2 -- OT1, Beacon on OT2
    Shaman 1 -- Chain heal being cast on OT 1
    Priest 1 -- OT2, also Helps with MT healing with renew and shields
    Druid 1-- Rolling hots, and helping with low target on free GCD

    If you have pallys, make sure they work out their beacon's and are not wasting them.
    Shaman chain heals through a tank, but CH is key because of the armor debuff. If you have druids, make sure 1 is rolling hots on the tanks.
    Good advice, we normally do Patch/25 with 5 healers with myself being the only paladin healer.

    Normally what I do is beacon one of the hateful strike tanks and focus heals on the other one, keep JoL rolling at all times on Patch and keep SS up on all tanks.

    It's fairly easy for 1 Holy Paladin to keep up one of the hateful strike tanks on his/her own (assuming half way decent gear on the healer and tank) and the beacon + jol + holy light glyph helps out with the others. As Jamor pointed out coordination and planning among the healers is the key.

  11. #11
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    The druid tank is better for the Hateful. In addition to having a larger health pool their focus on dodge cause many of the Hateful Strikes to miss completely. Rather then having the warrior mitigate them with block. As mentioned by someone previously your healers have to anticipate the incoming damage and not react to it.

    Good luck to you!
    Takka - Resto. Shaman, Borimyr - Prot. Warrior
    Inquisition - Arygos

  12. #12
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    Just throwing out an alternative strategy, but my guild has started doing Patchwerk with just one hateful tank. I don't really agree with the strategy, but we've downed him 3 weeks in a row without too much difficulty. In this case, melee probably need to be extra careful about their threat. We did have some other tanks in the run, so I'm not sure if they may have taken some inadvertent hatefuls during the course of the fights, but I don't recall anyone being dead... and healers should have been sticking to their assignments.

    If you *do* try this route, just have the hateful tank be mindful of threat. Hatefuls generate a lot of threat for whoever they hit, so with our hateful tank being solo, he was generating a *ton* of threat and almost overtook me on aggro last night.

    When your hateful tanks are dying, are you guys generally hovering at low(er) health for an extended period of time? Or are you dying pretty suddenly?

  13. #13
    We switched to having the prot warrior MT and having a feral druid do ALL the hateful soaks. This actually makes it easier on the heals then you would believe. Put 2 heals on the MT, usually a pally and priest for us, the pally beacons the feral, so in essence our feral has 5 heals on him. We assign the other 4 heals to the feral, he gets spammed back to full so quickly that its almost too easy. As long as the melee refreshes jumping into the slime to keep their health down, inadvertant strikes to the melee is completely avoided.

  14. #14
    I play a Pali and heal the hateful strikes on Patches. Only Pali's should be main healing OT's in this encounter, If your raid leader assigns anything else to it and keeps a Pali on MT or raid healing, please smack them.

    I have healbot addon

    What I do is Beacon OT1 and SPAM!!!! greater heal on OT2 I keep OT1 focus'd while using addon to heal OT2, the reason for focus is to be able to give the OT1 a Holy shock if falling low in health. We also have a priest or druid keeps hots up, but that is all

    Refresh beacon 10 seconds before it goes away

    JOL isnt the greatest idea for this fight as it creates a lag in your timing. Raid damage should not be the Pali's focus.
    In conclusion, Patches is a gear check fight for everyone included

    Only Pali's should heal OT's with someone keeping HOT's up

    TANKS need to be able to take this hits

    Healers need to be able to (again) SPAM!!! greater heals and not go OOM

    and DPS need to be able to down the boss prior to healers going OOM

    If your healers dont have Healbot or equiv addon please encourage them to download, Really helps with raid not so much necessary in 5 man.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by InfidelKastro View Post
    I play a Pali and heal the hateful strikes on Patches. Only Pali's should be main healing OT's in this encounter, If your raid leader assigns anything else to it and keeps a Pali on MT or raid healing, please smack them.

    I have healbot addon

    What I do is Beacon OT1 and SPAM!!!! greater heal on OT2 I keep OT1 focus'd while using addon to heal OT2, the reason for focus is to be able to give the OT1 a Holy shock if falling low in health. We also have a priest or druid keeps hots up, but that is all

    Refresh beacon 10 seconds before it goes away

    JOL isnt the greatest idea for this fight as it creates a lag in your timing. Raid damage should not be the Pali's focus.
    In conclusion, Patches is a gear check fight for everyone included

    Only Pali's should heal OT's with someone keeping HOT's up

    TANKS need to be able to take this hits

    Healers need to be able to (again) SPAM!!! greater heals and not go OOM

    and DPS need to be able to down the boss prior to healers going OOM

    If your healers dont have Healbot or equiv addon please encourage them to download, Really helps with raid not so much necessary in 5 man.
    Actually I would disagree with this. One pally can keep the MT up all by himself while putting the beacon on one of the OT's to help with the hatefuls. This allowed for 3 heals per OT when we were using the 2 hateful strike tanks. Now that we've moved to 6 heals and just MT/OT for patch, we've given the MT a priest just to lighten the load on the pally since 5 heals on one soak is a little overkill.

  16. #16
    Could you please elaborate. Your post isnt very detailed and it doesnt make much sense to me. You talk about 2 healers, but 6 heals? Or by heals do you mean healers?

  17. #17
    Our original setup when doing Patch was 3 tanks and 7 healers. We had the pally healer solo the MT and use his beacon on one of the OT's. We eventually moved to using 6 healers for Naxx and using 2 tanks for Patch. Since using only one hateful tank, we moved a second healer onto the MT just to make it ezmode keeping the MT up and put the other 4 healers on the hateful soaker. This also allows for and extra dps which makes the fight even faster.

    That being said, there was a video on Tankspot just a little while back with the group going 2 tanks 3 heals for the achievement. Thats what we're moving towards and we're going to try next week.
    Last edited by windergard; 01-28-2009 at 02:39 PM.

  18. #18
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    You can loosely guess which group of healers are not healing fast enough if you have hateful tanks dropping.


    For Example:

    1.0 sec - OT1 gets hit, goes to 20% health
    2.0 sec - OT2 gets hit, goes to 25% health
    3.0 sec - OT2 gets hit, dies

    In the above case OT1 had less health than OT2 at the 3.0 second mark. So heals were probably to slow on OT1. It probably happens more often than people realize, but a lucky dodge/miss/parry or high health can let you live through it. In theory, though, OT1 should be topped off within 2 seconds or OT2 is at risk.

  19. #19
    I should have included A shammy healing MT is a good option as chain heal with bouce to offtanks; Im pretty sure someone said this already

    I dont agree with a pali MT healing on this fight, I also dont think 6 healers are required for this fight.

    But whatever works works, dont let anyone tell ya different. If you down him thats what matters. Everyone has their style, I hope that the original poster has been able to get enough info to down on next attempt.

    Our raid was 12 seconds away from achievment on him yesterday and we used 4 healers. Next week!

  20. #20
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    In my personal experience, I have found stacking avoidance to be most beneficial here. Yes higher HP helps, but with good healers you should be fine as long as you have enough to be above others.

    Personally, I don't like using druids for the OT roles, that's just me though. Yes their avoidance is decent, but no where near the other 3 tank classes. This is a healer and DPS gear check, not so much tanks.

    When I OT as a warrior, I make sure that I stack up as much avoidance as possible, cross vigilance, Sanct, everything, Chainpop the armor pots, rotate cooldowns as much as possible, and save sheild wall for the mini enrage.
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

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