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Thread: Future of DK tanking. Quetions and concerns

  1. #41
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    I'm going to take a stab at answering the OPs original question. That question appears to be: Will the fixed nature of Runic Power generation cause DK tanks to fall behind the other tanks as the next levels of gear becomes available?

    The reasoning offered is that as DKs gain more avoidance with future upgrades Rune Strike will be available more often. But because Runic Power generates at a fixed rate (i.e. better gear will not increase your Runic Power generation) you will not be able to use all of these extra Rune Strikes.

    You may very well be right that you won't be able to use every Rune Strike that becomes available. The problem I see with your concern is that you assume that the other tanks have threat mechanisms that will increase with improved avoidance and/or mitigation. I play a druid. Most boss fights I'm effectively rage capped. I'm already using all the rage and global cooldowns I can; nearly every autoattack is replaced by a Maul. Future upgrades won't improve my threat generation through better avoidance or mitigation stats. More dodge, armor, and stamina are going to increase my survivability, not my threat. I imagine Warriors are in a similar boat. I'm not as familiar with Paladins but I don't believe they are mana starved at the moment so they would also be using all the mana and global cooldowns available.

    Much as DKs may be ability-capped because of the fixed nature of Runic Power generation and Rune cooldowns, the other tanks are effectively capped on most fights because they already have all the rage/mana they can use.

  2. #42
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    Whoa! Theres so many misconceptions flying about regarding the other tanking classes. (read the ones you are not currently playing)

    Although we have stickies and guides listed about the site, a lot of posters may not have parsed through most of them as some of them are links.

    Since it has been established that this is tankspot and not droodspot/lolaspot/ToothDKspot/warspot, is it prudent for us to request for the educated community posters to create extensive compilations similiar to what we have for warriors? (i play a warrior and a paladin, for the record)

    It will greatly elevate the general misinformation problems of the communities, and provide a good way to discard wrong or outdated guides that are still floating about the interwebz.

    Correct me if I am wrong but why do paladins threat scale inversely with gear? It does not. Only rage based tanks have this problem.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by robbon View Post
    let me get this right...

    your a DK with the health pool, armor and defence rating/crit immunity ability of a prot warrior.
    your a DK with the avoidance of a Druid
    your a DK with the weapons and ability to dual weild of a rogue/fury warrior
    your a DK with the ability to aoe like a pally.

    what was the problem again ?
    Druids don't actually have a ton of avoidance. 50% dodge is very high, even raid buffed, and generally they only have ~5% or so chance to be missed. 50% avoidance (dodge, miss, parry) is pretty standard for a warrior tank with decent gear, unbuffed. No, Death Knight avoidance is far and above what a Druid could ever dream. Counting the 10% parry proc (which should have near 100% uptime) it is pretty easy for a Death Knight to have more avoidance than a 15/5/51 specced warrior has combined dodge+parry+miss+block.
    [18:19:08] [R] [80:Neuter:1]: if bush can dodge a shoe, you can dodge the wall

  4. #44
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    I am still learning more and more about a class i dont play (DK), so i dont count myself as being "competent" at squaring off against a lvl 80 DK and discussing the finer detail and mechanics of tanking/dpsing as a DK.

    So forgive my ignorance.

    This thread to me has been very useful as it does confirm a lot of what we are experiencing with the class and the roles which we place the DK in to.

    The DK if geared and played well is extremely versatile and extremely competative when compared to other tank classes.

    I for one really really hope Blizzard either shift the focus on DK to being more tank or more dps. To be viable as both by just changing gear is not really what the talent trees were designed for imo but thats another thread.



    (Intolerantape - noted ty m8.)
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbon View Post
    To be viable as both by just changing gear is not really what the talent trees were designed for imo but thats another thread.



    (Intolerantape - noted ty m8.)
    -cough-

    Even if we do switch gear we are just as likely not to be able to tank like a druid/war/pally will not without the talents required. Yes, we are a little more likely to be able to do it on a tight squeeze, however we will have far less mitigation and will potentially not have the skills and abilities that make tanking far easier.

    First ones that come to mind are the avoidance once (Dodge, Parry and the armor bonus.)

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    -cough-

    lol

    I know thats kinda generalised..but lets just say a DK (i was going to say unholy) build (but in actual fact i think any of the three trees (frost/blood/unholy could viably tank !) was asked to OT in a raid he will most likely switch from dps gear to tank gear and still perform quite adequately and still maintain relatively high dps compared to the MT's.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbon View Post
    lol

    I know thats kinda generalised..but lets just say a DK (i was going to say unholy) build (but in actual fact i think any of the three trees (frost/blood/unholy could viably tank !) was asked to OT in a raid he will most likely switch from dps gear to tank gear and still perform quite adequately and still maintain relatively high dps compared to the MT's.
    again this is possible , but you have other factors too the tanking enchant if dps i have my enchant changed to suit the job i don't have two different 2hed weapons with separate enchants , also add the lose of the 3 main tanking talents they add a nice amount of avoidance.

    now also look at it this way if i am - the enchant +25 solid def i may be under the def cap of 540 so ill tank a massive lot of crit damage , then again i may still be uncrittable

    DK can tank in any build this is true but again missing certain talants and trying to tank while having higher dps can lead to other problem like too much over healing on you as a OT which leads to mana problems for the healers

    again though this is similar to most classes , id say warrior above all others though would be more able to OT if dps speced but would still suffer the same problem as a DK dps speced

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbon View Post
    lol

    I know thats kinda generalised..but lets just say a DK (i was going to say unholy) build (but in actual fact i think any of the three trees (frost/blood/unholy could viably tank !) was asked to OT in a raid he will most likely switch from dps gear to tank gear and still perform quite adequately and still maintain relatively high dps compared to the MT's.
    This is true however you will never achieve the same amount of damage reduction a full spec tank will. Just because your'e 540 uncrit doesn't mean you're not going to take as much damage. I know in my DPS builds, I usually don't get the three defense skills nor do I get Lichbourne which are usually in both frost and unholy builds. Those alone are good tools to mitigate damage.

    It's like a Fury warrior putting a shield on. Sure they can do it. It doesn't mean they're doing it with great mitigation. Same as a dps kitty going bear. Same as a ret pally going prot. They all can do it, but it doesn't mean they can do it efficiently.

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    This.

    HOLY CRAP is the new KM good with a 2H. Frost Strike becomes even more amazing with this change.
    I recently went with a frost spec centered around obliterate, and yeah, the dps, threat, tanking ability seems improved. I used to be around 1400-1500 raid dps and now am around 1800-1900. I'm still losing to the pah-bleep on threat. We recently did patchwerk with War MT, War #1 OT and myself as #2 OT, vigilance, vigilance...and I passed #1 OT by a wide margin over the course of the fight (better gearing on my part was a factor, but he's good tank too). It was interesting to watch.

    I do think our snap threat, not so great, but over the duration of a fight we scale quite nicely. I have noticed in a couple 5-man heroics if I'm lacking rune power or waiting for cooldowns then there is chance the dps'ers pull and get whacked (H Violet Hold, H HoS). It's okay, just a matter of waiting a few secs before next pull...like waiting for pah-bleep to drink.

    LK
    "serious walnut- crunching ass power" from: Merry Christmas, Bob, By Chris Shugart

  10. #50
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    I don't see DK's have any problem with TPS now. I've been unholy since day 1, the new patch really pushes the border to Frost KM spec. I refrain from posting the finer details as those of you who have tried both can definitely tell, Frost KM spec is by FAR superior to any DK tanking spec currently.

    If you are frost, and you're struggling for threat I'd suggest looking into your rotations and priorities. On AoE pulls, IT - pest - KM+HB will glue the mobs to you, no way for other tanks to pull from you unless they use their aoe taunt. From then on just HB on cooldowns, keep pestilence on CD (puts Blade Barrier + make Death Runes), Rune Strike and Frost Strike at will.

    On single target, forgo Howling Blast and just use Obliterate (just use HB when Rime proc for free damage). Refresh diseases accordingly. With that in mind I can easily sustain 6k TPS on single target bosses. With 21 sec IBF, 20 sec Unbreakable Armor, and my 2 on use dodge trinkets, I can always rotate my cooldowns very easily. Lichborne is there even though I only use it at really desperate situation. Going for "Can't get enough" - pulling 18 aboms on KT heroic, I single tanked like 6 aboms at a time.

    The difference between that and unholy is huge. DnD/UB cannot hold a candle against KM HB. Seeing 30k every 5 seconds really sold me there. Much better RP dump (FS hits harder than DC, and crits much much harder due to GotG).

    I am specced unholy just to run nax10. The run speed and +magicdmg is so valuable when you have 5 caster DPS in your grp. Other than this time, no way am I going back to Unholy.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juon View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but why do paladins threat scale inversely with gear? It does not. Only rage based tanks have this problem.
    Correct me if im wrong, but it requires you get damage healed to actually get mana returned right?...

    At least this is how things used to be, which then in turns could make Paladins prior to Wotlk go Out of mana, an Out of mana paladin doesn't produce all that much threat does he?

    They made huge buffs to both rage gains and i think palas got love to... but nothing is to say that the future doesn't take us the same place as history did.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    Correct me if im wrong, but it requires you get damage healed to actually get mana returned right?...

    At least this is how things used to be, which then in turns could make Paladins prior to Wotlk go Out of mana, an Out of mana paladin doesn't produce all that much threat does he?

    They made huge buffs to both rage gains and i think palas got love to... but nothing is to say that the future doesn't take us the same place as history did.
    Rage based tanks does not gain rage on parries and dodge, which happens more when their avoidance increases. Paladins still gain mana for all kinds of attacks unless it misses.

    When I am overgeared for a particular encounter on my warrior, I am especially careful to charge a lot and do chain pulls to conserve rage. The incoming attacks will be filled with dodges, parries and misses. When I block, I gain rage so its ok. But a chain of full non-hits will leave me rage starved. A BoSanc solves my problems.

    My paladin will gain less mana from SA if the incoming damage is very little but starts with a full mana pool, gain mana from attacks, blocks, dodges and parries as well. He is never starved badly like my warrior.

    2 cents.

  13. #53
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    So sad, there was a while on the Beta where warriors got rage from dodges and parries, and then just dodges. Turns out either made warriors go infini-rage.

    I ran with BoSanc last night, first time in a month or so I think, and good god is it OP for DKs! I'm Unholy, I was Corpse Exploding on CD, UB was always up, I was slipping DC's in blackouts, and I still didn't miss a single RS. My working avoidance on trash is averaging 60-64%, that turns into more RP than even I can get rid of, I don't know what I'd do as Blood, but as Frost I figure you could probably just about tank an entire raid with IT and FS. >.>

    Maybe wouldn't be the smartest thing, but I'd laugh to see it done.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juon View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but why do paladins threat scale inversely with gear? It does not. Only rage based tanks have this problem.
    No, you are incorrect. Mana based tanks have exactly the same problem as rage based tanks in general (actually, mana based tanks have it worse in that respect since we don't even generate our own resources like rage based tanks can). BoSanc solves that problem for both types. One of the major problems is that only one major source of that aspect of the blessing exists, and that does happen to be a mana based tank. However, this does not preclude all rage based tanks from getting it. It is available to every tank as long as you have someone in your raid to buff it (again this is a problem since only one spec of one class provides it). It should definitely have more sources though.

    The funny thing about BoSanc, however, is that it isn't really always a source of "infinite mana" in overgeared situations. Typically, I still go mana starved on trash in raids, especially if there are casters mixed in, and most bosses don't hit quickly enough for it to keep me full. The times I get infinite mana are on the hard hitting bosses, and I don't even have BoSanc blessed on those. Bosses like Loatheb, that hit like babies still mana starve me, despite having BoSanc.

  15. #55
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    I don't see why do people have issues with DK TPS. I am a frost specced DK tank, in my TPS set i can easily pull off 5-7k TPS in a heroic raid buffed environment. Blowing trinkets and Unbreakable armor gives you a huge TPS burst.

    With an equally skilled / geared warrior / pally / druid tank i am on par in terms of TPS with any of them. I do not see an issue with class TPS balance in that sense. There may be and there probably is a 1%-10% TPS difference between the classes at the moment, but that is not a large enough difference to call for a major change to anything.

    I have tanked in all 3 specs, and personally i would have to say that Frost has the highest, by far single target TPS. If you are going in as an unholy and losing out in TPS to other tanks, perhaps you should rethink your spec.

    The bigger concern in DK tanking is the fact that DKs are pretty bad at AOE tanking. No, i am not talking about holding aggro, DKs are easily capable of generating as much if not more AOE tps than a pally, but it is the fact that we are lacking block.

    Block makes a lot of difference when you are tanking a lot of soft hitting mobs, when a warrior / paladin tanks 20 mobs that hit for 1500 and they have block of 1700-1800... well they aren't exactly taking much damage. A DK on the other hand is going to eat a number of those 1500 hits. You can check with any of your healers, they will tell you that any pally / warr tank does not spike on trash, while a DK spikes are pretty bad.

    It's a different story when it comes to boss tanking, as Parri recently showed in his lentghy calculations a frost DK takes on average 20-30% less damage in a boss fight setup as compared to any other tank, purely based on higher avoidance.

    However, if DK avoidance is getting nerfed in 3.1, to be back on par with the warr / pally / druid
    + we still do not block
    + longer CDs on critical "oh shit" abilities
    + much lower magic dmg mitigation
    What exactly is the future of the DK tank?

    Yeah, we certainly retain a number of really cool features that other tank classes do not have, but all the fancy pixels aside - what exactly makes a DK tank in 3.1 better and in what situations? Of course it's terrific when a DK tank does double amount of damage of a prot warrior, but that isn't the bread of tanking.

    I have not seen any numbers in terms of DTPS, TTL, etc coming from the 3.1 yet, so i can't draw any final conclusions as of yet, but the words that are in the patch notes, are indeed making me worry.

  16. #56
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    First, I will start by saying that most of my tanking experience comes from heroics since i am just beginning to get geared for raids, so this is where my viewpoint will come from. I have a mostly Unholy spec since most pulls in heroics are multiple target pulls. I have a good aoe rotation and a single target rotation that have all seemed to work pretty well. The key for e has always been to start with DnD and then IT>PS>Pest from there it just depends. With IT,PS, and Pest I get enought RP to toss up UB and then start single target smashing until cd for BB is up. Alot of the time BB isnt even necessary since I have good control by the time the cd is up. Between Dark Command and Death Grip I have enough single target moves to pull anything that gets away back to me. Not to say that everything goes perfectly every time, because we all know that is never true. I don't really keep track of my TPS because i'm rather new to tanking (converted healer) and havent gotten used to paying attention to the meters. I do know that most of the time I have control and if I lose anyone it's usually due to their own stupidity. I just wanted to throw that out there because I'm new to tanking and have absolutely fallen in love with it.
    Last edited by Privatepyle; 03-19-2009 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Posting last portion in the correct place

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