+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 56

Thread: Future of DK tanking. Quetions and concerns

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    27
    Let me put it like this. If you are running 25man content as a DK tank with equally geared DPS you have seen your amount of threat versus their threat get much closer. While equally gear Warrior,Pally and Druids all maintain thier threat. My Guild has 3 Druid tanks, 4 warrior tanks, 3 DK, and 2 pallies all in 25 man gear. This is an area of concern which is what my post was about in the first place the topic of course was long ago abandoned. I dont have a Problem really with anything right now. My concern is will this trend continue. Will I continue to lose threat to the dpser and other tanks. I dont know but its easy to see what they have (Pally, Druids and Warriors) versus what we have in the way of high threat abilities and see that theirs are much more efficient and dependable than ours and they scale much better with gear.

    If you are a DK tank do this little test. Tank a boss record your DPS and your average and peak TPS on that fight. Then do the same when one of the other tank types tank the same boss. You will find your dps to be the same or greater but your tps will not. The question is why?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    467
    In all seriousness i understand your woe and dont think it will be an issue.

    You just have to see the amount of changes made during the last patch to Dk to see that Blizz are still developing the DK class.

    How things will pan out...who can say.

    But lets face facts. The DK is a "hero" class. Now i know there is a lot of debate about what this actually means and im still undecided myself.

    However the DK can and does "fit" the hole in the raid whereby i need a dps but i actualy need a possible further tank. So im looking for a class that has high dps BUT can alos act as tank.

    Even if i take a full "tank" spec DK to a raid and ask him to go dps on this fight...he is quite easily outputting more damage than a prot warrior would in the same position. A pally tank can but has to watch aggro and the druid can go pussy and still put out some serious dps. We have even had our MT druid AOE tank trash as pussy....

    I suppose what im saying is your class is valuable yes. its also very viable in many situations and you can be rest assured you will always have high dps in an OT role and be quite appropriate in a MT role.

    class buffs/nerfs and adjustments will continue...gear will change...mechanics will change.

    I wouldnt worry..it looks like DK are Blizzards new best friend and im sure you will be for the remainder of WotLk as the storyline and lore revolves areound you a lot more yet.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    261
    Quote Originally Posted by sawzz View Post
    If you are a DK tank do this little test. Tank a boss record your DPS and your average and peak TPS on that fight. Then do the same when one of the other tank types tank the same boss. You will find your dps to be the same or greater but your tps will not. The question is why?
    Well warriors have threat modifiers and palas have rf so that's not a big mystery... Dk's are designed to do more damage when tanking and we scale very well with gear/buffs imo. As an example my howling blast crits for 4k self buffed and it crits for 6k in a raid with most buffs same goes with alot of other dk abilities.

    Trying to say that warrirors will scale better because they have initiall threat on some abilities is realy backwards thinking. They might scale better in t8 gear for all i know, but it wont be because they have initiall threat abilities.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    941
    Sawzz I don't mean to call you out or play the armory card but I just looked at your gear, your guild, what progress you've done and I don't think that you have the experience to make any real evaluations about DK threat "problems" for the future.

    You're gemming hit when you aren't even expertise capped for boss dodge and most of your gear is from 10 mans. I would think , especially as blood, that knocking at least dodge off the table would be a huge concern. While demise is a good weapon, it isn't a iLvL 213 weapon and is definetely not an Inevetable Defeat. Doing good threat and damage as a DK is very reliant on your weapon.

    I would suggest that you hit the gear cap and THEN run some numbers before having concerns.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    27
    You think that possibly I might have more than one set of tank gear maybe?? Maybe more than one weapon? Dont pull the I looked at your armory card ok it has a much better chance of making you look stupid, much more than it does the OP.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    941
    It doesnt make me look stupid. You haven't killed KT 25 man so your "different gear sets" will not be anything impressive. If you have inevitable defeat and are using demise you're a fool. I will pull the "I looked at your armory" because that's exactly what I did.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Posts
    73
    Wow...

    Honestly i can't se what your on about for now, i think Death Knights is by far the collest tanking class there is, due to the fact you have much more to move around to fit your playstyle... And who doesn't think it's cool to be the class smacking that big 2 hander in the bosses faces?...

    But for a more serious part.

    The Rune System and the Runic Power

    This is a pritty unique system, and indeed require some skill to master. Tailoring your rotation around it is far from as easy as what warriors, druids and palas has to do, but if we in any way can look back, i think this system will show to be one of our advantage.

    As mentioned, we don't relly on taking damage so to speak to gennerate rage or get mana from heals. If we are to belive things might move as previous patches, these things will end up to be problem for some warriors and druids out there.

    (Makes me think back on tanking Kara in BT ready tanking gear on my warrior)

    What this means is that there rage generation and mana returns, rely on matters they don't fully control, our generation of Runes and Runic Power doesn't. This i think is an advantage although it shurely have an downside of never being in unlimited surply.

    Rune Strike

    It is ONE of our main abilities to generate threat, but depending on spec you also have SS for us unholy tanks is also a good threat portion, even though it doesn't have a threat multiplier.

    Blood and Frost also have there special little abilities and so on...

    Death and Decay

    Also DnD is not as bad as people seem to think it are.
    Just a quick rundown on that. Rune by Rune i would get a SS + BS for it. For me this is on average around 2.4k + 1k = 3.4k damage.

    DnD ticks for around 360 on average for me, this is 3.6k damage.
    That is with a threat multiplyer on.

    It's really the rotation that pulls DnD down, but theres many bosses where situations will let you have enough runes to put it down while not rune starvating your self.

    I Haven't formed a final oppinion on bosses as Patchwerk, and if DnD is actually worth fidling with here, im still playing around with it, seeing if i can somehow fit it in without loosing GCD's or at least to much of one.

    But saying it should never be used on a boss is pure rubish if you ask me...

    For how we scale

    Well i don't see any issues here that aint on other classes as well. Warriors, Druids and Palas need to improve there offensive stats just as much as us along the way. But we are so blessed that even str also benefits our TDR.

    Do i fear for the our future?

    Well ofc i do, i fear for all classes future on all acounts, itemization, nerfs, buffs and all. But i do fear mor for the other tanking classes on the threat matter than for us.
    Last edited by dotJEM; 01-28-2009 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    171
    Sawzz, why don't you try out a different spec, right now yes... blood is putting out a little less threat than the other two spec. Also blood has rune count usage is higher (since you rely on HS) than frost or unholy so if you are "dare i say it" a clicker, you will particularly have problems with blood.

    ... and by saying i only want to tank heavy blood, its like a dps priest going holy and saying I like to spam smite its blizzards fault I don't put out as much dps as shadow...

    I'm not even tank spec atm (when i am i'm usually frost), but if the day comes when frost was struggling I definately would spec into another tree that was doing better instead of saying the class is in trouble.

    Why not start your post by saying that you are a Blood Spec DK Tank who is having threat issues... here is my spec and rotation... what are you guys doing differently... etc etc

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Threat's an issue?

    I will admit that at the start, threat's an issue. Give me 5 seconds however, and you're not going to pull off of me.

    I can constantly hold a 4.5 to 5k threat on a single target easily. I've spiked to 6-7k before oddly enough with no problems.

    The gear will come along and the skill will also come with it. Practice makes perfect. (Btw I hit that with Frost, not unholy, before people start screaming you were AoE tanking and thus the high threat)

    Yes, I could be pulling numbers, however how would you know,

    Anyway, threat right now is alright. Will it be caught up by DPS? It already is, I see mages come near me and I kinda wince. However it's up to the DPS to be smart about it...

    The big thing I think DKs need is a way to frontload a lot of threat instantly. We're slow frontloaders when it comes to threat, however once established, it's hard to pull off.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    27
    I guess I made some assumtions at the beginning and was prolly to long winded in the foundation of my argument. So let me clear some things up.

    First Ive tanked all three specs and tweek things here and there all the time. I am usually broke from respecs and regemming and what not. I am blood now really for utilities sake. This is not what my main tank spec would look like.

    I dont dislike tanking with my DK. I love the class and how we go about our business. No problem there from me.

    The point from the begining is the mechanics of how we generate threat and why I believe we fall behind the other tanking classes as our gear improves. Thats it. Im not trying to change the world or make people mad.

    What I stated about DK threat is fact. Im sorry if that offends people. Me asking why and suggesting where the problem might be is what I thought this section of the forum was all about.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    182
    Hmm.. as our gear improves we generally deal more damage in return dealing more threat. I've had the other tanks in my guild comment already that my threat can just shoot up as DK threat can be fairly spikey as some others have pointed out. If you are mindful of your rotations it generally isn't that difficult to keep up threat.

    As far as DPS goes, I've seen some dps that have not only caught up to my threat but generally the threat of all the other tanks in our guild. Some of them do it on purpose to keep the tanks on their toes lol.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Quote Originally Posted by sawzz View Post
    I guess I made some assumtions at the beginning and was prolly to long winded in the foundation of my argument. So let me clear some things up.

    First Ive tanked all three specs and tweek things here and there all the time. I am usually broke from respecs and regemming and what not. I am blood now really for utilities sake. This is not what my main tank spec would look like.

    I dont dislike tanking with my DK. I love the class and how we go about our business. No problem there from me.

    The point from the begining is the mechanics of how we generate threat and why I believe we fall behind the other tanking classes as our gear improves. Thats it. Im not trying to change the world or make people mad.

    What I stated about DK threat is fact. Im sorry if that offends people. Me asking why and suggesting where the problem might be is what I thought this section of the forum was all about.
    Well when you see a thread that states Questions and Concerns about a class, which happens to be yours, of course you're allowed to question it, that's the whole point.

    However it's from my experience that we're really not as badly off as most people think we are. Yes, we are behind when it comes to starting threat and people can't open up. I like to think of us as the warriors of old "Don't hit till 2 sunders!!!". Right now, our rage generation to start off is very poor. I don't find the opening of D&D > PS > IT or IT > PS depending on if you get Glacial Rot or not, is the greatest opener due to the fact your first threat ability is a DoT. Unlike Paladins who have a real hard hitting starting ability (Shield of Righteousness, and their Captain America attack) and then rely on Consecration to keep their adds to them, we immediately open up with a DoT and expect to keep our main target after a full rotation has been set. This can be problematic if the boss has an enrage timer as you have to set up a rotation to fully have the effects needed. A misdirection + Tricks of the Trade will help here but we shouldn't have to rely on another class to do our job properly.

    You know what I would love them to give us? Something of a shield slam but not. Remember in Final Fantasy, where the Death Knight had those ranged dark attacks that stole health or mana and it came out as a death like sword or scythe to attack a mob? THAT would be awesome to get. Just one single attack that's on say, a 30 second cooldown, to be an initial big hit damage dealing, and threat dealing, attack.

    That's my thoughts anyway.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by sawzz View Post
    A couple of other items.
    Pally's and warrior and druids have instant attacks that have threat mutipliers still acording to the tool tip.
    Can you list some pally ones? All we use in our rotation typically is Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of Righteousness, Holy Shield, Judgement, and Consecration. Sometimes we use Avenger's Shield, Hammer of Wrath, and Exorcism depending on the situation.

    I would encourage you to look at their tooltips again before listing them though. I can tell you right now that none of those generate additional threat individually.

    Also, paladins are kind of in the reverse situation from how you describe deathknights. You said death knights are constrained by only being able to generate so much RP. Paladins can only spend so much. Even if we were able to generate twice as much, we couldn't use it at all as our rotation is fairly set and we don't have any kind of mana dump. Interesting comparison.

  14. #34
    Speaking from a warriors perspective and watching our guilds new DK tank (jmw) I'd have to say that I see a few issues for dk's and warriors:

    1. DK's have a higher stam multiplier than warriors do, and as the gear goes on (and sense they share gear) dk's will gain stam faster than warriors.

    2. DK's have (in "equivalent gear") about 10-15% more avoidance than warriors do, yet in the same gear tend to have 2-3k more life. Looking at this from an average hit from boss perspective and assuming an average block value of 1200 or so (and say 25% block chance) this means that DK's actually take less damage on boss fights that hit really hard (like over 10k a hit on average), yet they ALSO have more stam, and more armor (by about 5k).

    3. Threat generation for a DK does not seem to scale as well with gear as for warriors (assuming rage is not an issue, the mechanic that warriors have issues with threat (without blessing of sanc) in higher gear sets has still not been fixed, and thus warriors will continue to have to gear down for fights if there isnt a prot pally in raid, unless bosses hit really really hard, but then again a DK would be better tank due to the above 2). (this is mainly due to bonus threat from AP, and shield slam from BV (both going up with str).


    This means that in later content, due to the stam and avoidance difference in scalings, rage issues with warriors, and threat scalling issues with dk's, that in progession fights where the average boss hits really hard, dk's are the best tank, but later when you need threat rather than survivabilty you'll need a warrior.

    I hope that blizz realizes these issues and:

    1. buffs DK threat scaling

    2. either increases the stam warriors get from gear from 6% bonus from talents to 10% or increases our average amount of shield block value to make up for the lack of stam scaling (to something closer to 2.5-3k SBV).


    I believe that druids are about right in their stam/avoidance/armor rating, and that pally's are going to have similar issues as warriors.

    The only other way that I can think of to fix this is to still buff DK threat scaling, but lower the amount of armor/stam they get from gear to say 70% armor and 6% stam in "tank stance" but let them keep their avoidance for the moment.


    The only TRUELY saving grace (which may level the whole playing field here between the dk's and everyone else) is the fact that dk's will be losing alot of avoidance as gear goes up compaired to other tanks. This is mostly because of the parry DR curve. Most well geared DK tanks are already hitting the parry DR curve pretty hard (once you get above 12% + parry from gear you start really getting hammered with the parry DR curve). This means that the STR bonus to parry for DK's will be come MUCH less as gear goes up, and so DK's will not be able to gain as much avoidance as warriors/druids as gear progresses.

    However due to the isses of avoidance/rage with warriors we cannot use the above advantage to full use (without blessing of sanc). This means that either you HAVE to have a prot pally in raid, or blizz needs to give warriors the stam or SBV change I suggested. That or another idea might be to give warriors something like 5 rage every time they dodge/parry and 2 rage (as it is) if they block, but then nerf blessing of sanc (as someone else already mentioned). This would work in allowing warriors to keep high avoidance gear, have less stam than DK's but the DK's loss in avoidance due to DR on parry would make up the difference and yet warriors could still not be rage starved in higher gear, and then give DK's a bonus to threat from AP like warriors, but not as high of a percentage.



    Note that most of the above is me just doing estimates of values from simple calculations and not a full analisys. However my engineer intuition is telling me it's moderatly accurate (though it could be wrong).

    Edit: and I just figured out why I might be wrong.... /sigh I forgot DK's dont have 10% reduction on normal attacks (only on magic). That right there may very well make up the difference.... guess that means I might just have to sit down and do the math.
    Last edited by shushikiary; 01-29-2009 at 11:29 AM.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    171
    Shushi... looking at your DK Tank he is frost DW (not much changed with 3.08)... since the patch 2H frost KM tank builds have been scaling really well. My threat went up ~50% with the release of 3.08.

    *just food for thought*


    edit... good to see another engineer is bored at work and cruises the forums...
    Last edited by Merko; 01-29-2009 at 01:36 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    Shushi... looking at your DK Tank he is frost DW (not much changed with 3.08)... since the patch 2H frost KM tank builds have been scaling really well. My threat went up ~50% with the release of 3.08.

    *just food for thought*


    edit... good to see another engineer is bored at work and cruises the forums...
    Yea currently he's in some sort of farming gear on the armory, but when he tanks he uses a 2 hander, I have a lot to learn about DK's. Perhaps, give what you have said, they did fix the DK threat issue then, and given that I forgot about the 10% that DK's dont have like warriors, I think things are pretty well balanced (I'm still kicking my self for forgetting about that 10%....).


    Yea, I usually use my lunch break for surfing the forums, lol.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    171
    ...if he tanks in that spec with a 2hander, i would be very cautious about "the new tank" because his spec and rotation is why he is putting out low threat.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    12
    I feel I am in a good position to comment about this issue as we run four tanks (pally/dk/druid/warrior) and have cleared every fight in the game including both 10/25 man 3 drake sarth.

    It took me a while to figure out how to say this without talking for two pages, but here is the short and simple version.

    In three drake Sarth the first drake is commonly Hero'ed down. I use vigilence on our top dps, and lavanthor/shield block after stacking sunders and getting the shield slam glyph up. My gear setup to say the least is threat oriented. Even with MD and tricks those first 20 seconds with cooldowns blazing are rough when our top DPS will be pushing over 10k. At our current level of gear I would be hesitant to put anyone other than myself on the drakes.

    So yea your single target threat might not stack up against mine. At the same time you are viable in so many other places. I would never want anyone other than a DK on constantly spawning adds. You can soak Sarth's breaths like a champ. You can also switch into DPS gear and be viable without a spec change.

    Your line of thinking is correct, but your concern isn't valid. DK's are not meant to be the champions of single target threat generation. No matter what blizzard says they have distinctly different roles in mind for the tank classes when it comes to hard content. Even now in "hard mode" encounters tanks have very specific roles, and I doubt that will ever change.

    That all said for every standard encounter for a standard guild every tank is interchangible. This will stay the same in 3.1.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Yardley, PA
    Posts
    1,222
    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    Shushi... looking at your DK Tank he is frost DW (not much changed with 3.08)... since the patch 2H frost KM tank builds have been scaling really well. My threat went up ~50% with the release of 3.08.

    *just food for thought*


    edit... good to see another engineer is bored at work and cruises the forums...
    This.

    HOLY CRAP is the new KM good with a 2H. Frost Strike becomes even more amazing with this change.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca
    Everyone marvels at a square egg, but only the chicken understands the PAIN.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    261
    just like to back up merko in that a 2h frost build generate alot of threat atm and it seems to scale very well with buffs etc so atleast one of the specs dont have threat issues atm (both singletarget and aoe).

    You also have to remeber that warriors have defencive stance witch is 10%dmg reduction. On my dk i vent from 24k to 28k armor after the patch wictch was about 3% dmg reduction and thats about the same as warriors get from def stance. Overall i belive warr/palas/dk have about the same mitigation on a full hit (no block). Dk's might be to op when it comes to avoidance, but i dont think we can conclude to much about that before we encounter harder hitting bosses.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts