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Thread: Future of DK tanking. Quetions and concerns

  1. #1
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    Future of DK tanking. Quetions and concerns

    Looking Into my crystal ball I think we have some problems coming concerning death knight tanking.

    First letís establish how we tank vs pallys vs Warriors/druids specifically how we generate threat.

    Warrior/Druid use rage to pull off a number of special abilities thereby creating additional threat. Some abilities have threat multipliers built into the ability creating more threat than the pure damage of said ability. Rage is generated threw the damage you deliver and the damage you take. Also you generate additional rage from avoiding attacks. This basically limits the Druid/Warrior only by global cooldown and the viability of rage as to when a special attack can be used.

    Pallyís use mana to pull off a number of special abilities thereby creating additional threat. Some abilities have threat multipliers built in to the ability creating more threat than the pure damage of said ability. Mana is returned to the pally threw the healing they receive and the use of judgment/seals. Pallys generate threat also threw damage they deliver when they block an attack. This basically limits the Pally only by global cooldown and the viability of mana as to when a special attack can be used.

    Now the deathknight dilemma. We use runes to pull off our special attacks they give us no additional threat beyond the damage they deliver. We also have one ability runestrike that is only active after we dodge or parry. Runestrike does create additional threat but uses runic power. Runic power is generated threw the use of out other special abilities or two talent in the blood tree that in there present form are certainly not worth the talent points. This basically limits the Deathknight by global cooldown, rune cooldown, and the availability of runic power as to when a special attack can be used.

    Now the problem if you cannot already spot it is in the availably of runic power to pull off runestrikes. The idea that was put forth that DKís are true avoidance tanks because we do not need to take damage to generate more threat. But we still cannot runestike if there is no runic power available. Right now in a mix of T7 & T7.5 I have over 60% dodge + parry. This number can only go up with the next round of gear and content. But runic power and the ability to generate more is set in stone. You can only generate so much over a given amount of time. IF runestrike is to be THE threat generator tanking ability something has to change in how we generate runic power. I am already at the point where im runic power starved. In other words im not able to runestrike after every dodge or parry, not even close. Im not sure what the answer is short of some severer changes to the class or possibly tuning the threat multiplier of frost presence something I donít like. This really leaves one option for blizz and that is to stack more and more dps stat on tank gear. But how do you do that without making warriors OP.



    I love playing my DK he is my main and I tank everything but I cant help but feel like DKís are just a DPS class that blizz stuck a few tank talent on and called it a day. The whole idea of tanking using the same abilities as you would as dps is just broken IMO.

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    Blessing of Sanctuary. Learn to love it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    Blessing of Sanctuary. Learn to love it.
    This ^^^^

    Blizzard will either balance arround it. Or they will have to nerf it and give something like it to all tanks. BoSanc = infinte RS.

    the big fear I have is that if they do balance arround this, then you will start seeing many many DW tanks just so they can keep up on threat.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

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    Your reasoning is somewhat flawed.

    First off, all tanks, warriors, bears, protadins, and DKs alike all have the same threat/damage architecture. Blizz has stripped a significant amount of the "bonus threat" from abilities and has buffed our damage potential quite a lot. We all still have threat multipliers and sources of bonus threat.

    Now I'm inclined to agree with you that rage and mana are very simple mechanics next to the Rune/RP system, and because of this DK tanking takes a lot more complex skill application when it comes to managing this power system effectively, but I see that as a massive plus to the class. I like that it takes more to really be able to succeed as a DK tank.

    Rune Strike is not our sole threat tool, it just happens to be a good one that improves as our tanking gear does, but it is already possible in currently available content to not be able to use it on every proc simply because you are swinging a big slow weapon. If you are finding you don't have enough RP to use it, that's a very different issue, and I'd ask either A.) what are you doing with all your RP, or B.) why are you not generating enough? When I am MT'ing RS is usually second or third on my overall damage (probably placing it first or close to on threat) but it is still only at most 20-25% of my total output. I am unholy, which means I have 2 other things I am eagerly spending RP on UB which I maintain zealously when possible, and DC/CE depending on the context of the pull. And yet, this is still where RS lands.

    I'm not sure what your concern is, but you need to take two steps back and bring something more solid to the table. If you have a problem, bring it up for discussion and maybe we can help. If you just don't like the way the class works, then go play a different one, there are certainly more than enough people who want to be DKs.

    So what will it be, offer us your problems (which we may or may not share)? Or are you just venting, or planning a reroll?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawzz View Post
    Right now in a mix of T7 & T7.5 I have over 60% dodge + parry. This number can only go up with the next round of gear and content. But runic power and the ability to generate more is set in stone. You can only generate so much over a given amount of time.
    You're assuming that somehow as your avoidance goes up you should arbitrarily be able to rune strike more, forgetting that rune strike, as an "On-Next-Swing" ability is solely limited by the number of swings your weapon is making per minute.

    The only place I can see this being an issue is if you're using a fast 1h to tank with, which is a bad choice for a DK tank as some of our abilities are based on weapon damage. While 1h tanking, slow 1h weapons are the best choice, and all 2h weapons are slow, so the number of rune strikes you can do is strictly limited by this number, and will not increase no matter how much avoidance you have.

    That being said, rune strike costs 20 RP, and with a 2h weapon you can expect a ~3.5 second swing, allowing you more than enough time to use 2 abilities for 20 RP (or 2 multi-rune abilities for even more RP). There are hard and fast numbers to RP generation and consumption, unlike rage generation which is much more random.

    The only thing I could suggest is that the RP value of rune strike perhaps be modified depending on whether you're wielding a 1h or 2h weapon. 1h, less damage, more swings, less RP needed. 2h, more damage, less swings, more rp needed.

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    Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining my concern. My gripe does not apply to current content (see the title of the post). My gripe is with Runestrike as a tanking ability that all and death knight tanking in general. With an eye on the future.

    Deathknight as of right now are bassically on auto mode. What do I mean? Regarless of what you do you can only generate a certain amount of RP.
    Regarless of what you do you can only pull off so many abilities that are based on the use of runes. This is set in stone. You can miss your rotation and generate less but no more no matter what. So the question become what can we do to generate more threat with what availible to us. Runestrike is sold to us as being the threat generating tool that is to fill in the gaps so to speak in out normal rotation. And again no matter what only a set number of RS can be pulled off in a given amount of time.

    This to me is a sad state for any class to be in. Auto mode bassically. No other tank class is like this. I see this as bad because we are going to be so dependant of the gear availible. I just see this a a place where problems can and prolly will arise in future content.

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    A couple of other items.

    Pally's and warrior and druids have instant attacks that have threat mutipliers still acording to the tool tip.


    Also the the comment was made that you can only RS every time you auto attack based on weapon speed. Giving you 3.5 to generate 20 rp. After a parry how much time do you have?? Can you consistantly generate 40 runic power over say 6 sec? As you can see its not so simple when you consider haste do to parry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    Blessing of Sanctuary. Learn to love it.
    That's the problem. I've cleared 10 man content sans BoSanc, and it wasn't notable. Then I did a 25 man with BoSanc and I couldn't get rid of RP on a regular basis if I was the MT. I think when I'm able to 4x Frost Strike (and 0 talent points in Runic Power Mastery, no FS glyph), something is a wee bit out of whack.

    While DKs can generate a lot of threat, we're reliant on Frost Presence ('tank stance'), Rune Strike (limited by weapon speed) and Death & Decay (heavy rune cost, notable CD even with talents). Altogether, there isn't a single, 'spammable' or short CD high-threat ability, and that's what is concerning Sawzz.

    Lacerate, Hammer of Righteousness & Shield all come to mind as examples of the spam/short CD threat moves other tanks have currently. Damage is key, but I consistently see the warrior/paladin tanks peel a mob off me unless I've got a significant lead. (The warrior admits to a shield slam, I suspect SotR from the paladin.)
    Last edited by Esch; 01-27-2009 at 02:05 PM.

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    I wouldn't say that we're reliant on DnD, in fact it's a terrible ability to use while MTing a boss and boss tanking should be the only point for discussion.

    I don't have any trouble with threat and don't see any problems with threat in the future. As DPS' gear gets better, so does ours.

    Further more initial threat should never be a problem for DK's with the option to use RPM. I honestly don't know where all the concerns are coming from. I think that if individuals are having problems keeping aggro from DPS or other tanks then they should look at themselves for a solution, not blame their problem on class mechanics and design.

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  10. #10
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    Warriors, Paladins and to some extent Druids don't complain about their threat plateauing with gear but rather they complain that their threat decreases with gear due to their rage/mana generation mechanics. It seems to me then that DK's have it quite good because with more damage stats on gear their threat will increase and with more avoidance their threat will increase. On the whole this is quite irrelevant unless someone comes up with actual numbers on how threat scales and until we see what kind of gear comes out of Ulduar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    I wouldn't say that we're reliant on DnD, in fact it's a terrible ability to use while MTing a boss and boss tanking should be the only point for discussion.
    DnD is as valid as any other ability to generate threat. It also has the benefit, like paladin consecrate, to manage to 'ignore' the need for +hit gear and still generate threat. Paladins have been employing this aspect for threat generation on bosses as well as trash.

    I don't have any trouble with threat and don't see any problems with threat in the future. As DPS' gear gets better, so does ours.
    ... and as our gear improves, so does the other tanks' gear. Ergo, the threat aspect scales accordingly. Equally geared tanks should tank equally, IMO, but I find that my cohorts can pull aggro 'at will' by employing said threat abilities. The change to RS was great, but the passive nature makes it unreliable if there isn't time to 'proc' it. Then again, if I have time to proc RS, I probably get time to get a solid threat lead and the issue is moot.

    Further more initial threat should never be a problem for DK's with the option to use RPM. I honestly don't know where all the concerns are coming from. I think that if individuals are having problems keeping aggro from DPS or other tanks then they should look at themselves for a solution, not blame their problem on class mechanics and design.
    Let's stop lumping DPS with Tanking. Keeping DPS from pulling aggro is pretty boring in WotLK, though still manage (usually by crit strings). Tanking is more often a question of if, as a DK, I get enough time on target to out threat the opening move of another tank. If I get the lead, I hold aggro. If I don't, then I find X-High-Threat Move pulls it, and I'm ending up in a DPS role as I fall behind.

  12. #12
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    If you are having issues with RP buildup, you might try to work a few more Death Coils into your rotation. I find myself in situations like that most of the time, but as long as you don't dip too low for your next Rune Strike you should actually end up better for your threat output.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    DnD is as valid as any other ability to generate threat. It also has the benefit, like paladin consecrate, to manage to 'ignore' the need for +hit gear and still generate threat. Paladins have been employing this aspect for threat generation on bosses as well as trash.
    Consecrate is part of a pallies rotation. On solo mob tanking, DnD is not part or at least should not be part of a DK's rotation.



    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    ... and as our gear improves, so does the other tanks' gear. Ergo, the threat aspect scales accordingly. Equally geared tanks should tank equally, IMO, but I find that my cohorts can pull aggro 'at will' by employing said threat abilities. The change to RS was great, but the passive nature makes it unreliable if there isn't time to 'proc' it. Then again, if I have time to proc RS, I probably get time to get a solid threat lead and the issue is moot.
    As other classes gear gets better their threat generation has the possibility of going down if they don't take enough damage. Pallies threat was broken, it has since been fixed. No crazy modifiers on holy damage, no double shield slam. If your "cohorts" can pull aggro off of you then something is wrong. 7k Obliterate crits seem like a decent snap aggro ability.



    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Let's stop lumping DPS with Tanking. Keeping DPS from pulling aggro is pretty boring in WotLK, though still manage (usually by crit strings). Tanking is more often a question of if, as a DK, I get enough time on target to out threat the opening move of another tank. If I get the lead, I hold aggro. If I don't, then I find X-High-Threat Move pulls it, and I'm ending up in a DPS role as I fall behind.
    Lumping DPS into tanking is kind of like comparing tanking classes to each other. Like I said. We have so many tools at our disposal. If initial threat is a problem then open with IT->OB->BT->OB->BS->RPM->Smash face.

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    Right now in a mix of T7 & T7.5 I have over 60% dodge + parry. This number can only go up with the next round of gear and content. But runic power and the ability to generate more is set in stone. You can only generate so much over a given amount of time.
    You say you are over 60% avoidance (and miss is not even included in that 60%) and as it's said DK's are needing very little healing if played properly. Isn't that a gain against other tank classes? Classes have plus and downsides.

    I have 42% avoidance as a Druid in Naxx25 gear.
    Sanctuary does not provide a regen in situations of a 'Miss' avoidance type. This will affect particulary Warriors and Paladins I supose, thou in certain situations I do still get rage starved even with BoSanc.
    I am not sure about Discipline priests and their shields.

    You will have to look at the other classes downsides. A druid for example will have to debuff lancerate x5 for max tps/dps. If by bad luck a druid is unlucky to get low on rage and then avoid the next incoming attack with a 'miss' and having lancerate run out, he will have to re-stack 5 debuffs. Same happens in bosses with air phases or switching bosses (Sapphiron & 4Horseman respectivly). In Grobbulus for example, I have to refresh lancerate everytime before I move him just to prevent the debuff run out due to my attack not landing or he not reaching melee range by a fraction of second. That ruins my normal rotation a lot where I could land an extra 2 swipes (doing up to 1kdmg each) I have to cast a lancerate wich I don't think goes above 400.


    Last time we killed Patchwerk in 25man I was OT'ing and a DK MT'ing he was doing a solid 8k TPS. There is no way can do solid 8k TPS, I can do 6.5 but without a serie of crits in a row I won't go above that for more than 1 second. Patchwerk is obviously a situation that you name 'only limited by GCD'.
    In situations where the tank can get very limited amount of rage due to a serie of factors - DK is very favoured in this situation then.

    I'm at the stage my TPS will only improve with more DPS stats. So I am aswell limited, just diferently. Either way, my TPS is high enough for the DPSers and aslong it stays that way I am not worried.
    How do you face a problem when the problem is your face?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    Lumping DPS into tanking is kind of like comparing tanking classes to each other. Like I said. We have so many tools at our disposal. If initial threat is a problem then open with IT->OB->BT->OB->BS->RPM->Smash face.
    It's BT, then IT 2x OB BS. Oh, yeah, I use that rotation, albeit if you're needed to employ RPM, you're either padding your lead over tank #2 or (as I tend to find) I'm trying to keep up with him.

    I still think DPS is DPS, Tanking is Tanking. Lumping them together implies that the need to focus on dealing damage is the same as tanking. Might as well take IBT, UA, LB, BA, etc. all off the bar at that point. I'ld rather worry about threat & mitigation, not where I'm placing on a DPS meter.

    That's why I'm a tank.

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    One of the big problems I see here is that people are comparing one class to another. Well the orange taste different from the apple and thats just not right... DK's are designed differently. I may not have the snap aggro abilities as a warrior, and am happy thusly. Once I start in on a boss fight, theres no slowing my threat down unless I really screw up my rotation. In the future as DPS gear gets better, obviously ours will too.

    Something that was mentioned by a later post was that Frost Pres (Tank stance) is our threat modifier. Im sure that everyone knows by now that not ALL information is on the tool tips. If you dont believe this than try and tank in any other stance and see how you do on threat. I understand where your coming from on the whole of RP vs RS use. Heres the deal with that. I have actually dropped RS out of my rotation almost entirely to see how well I can tank without "high threat" abilities. Thus far I have done just fine. Bring RS back into my rotation down the road will do nothing but increase my preformance.

    Another thing to remember is with all our abilities, we dont just rely on "high threat" tooltips. Most of your ablilities scale off our AP. Best thing any tank can do is balance their avoidance and stam stats for dps stats. If you get too much into worrying about defensive capabilities, you forget about your threat gen (Partly why I respec'd).

    The only reason I could see agreeing with the concerns of the OP is if your basing your thoughts souly on defensive style tanking, in which case warriors and druids would win out. Personally, I dont see DK's as such style, DK's are ment to be the active ability tanks so there should be no need for "high threat" abilities. With a soild rotation, you'll never be blacked out, never have too little rp, and always have more fun that anyone else IMO.

  17. #17
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    To the op i think you got it all backwards. Dk's are as you say somewhat on auto mode in our rotation since the rotation is for the most set in stone regardless of what you are tanking. The only difference is if we rs alot or if we have to use other ways to dump our rune power. But how is this a bad design? It only means we are able to produce more reliable threat then rage/mana based classes. Sure we wont see the same threat increase on patch, but we wont loose alot of our threat when tanking easy hitting bosses either. Personaly i think its a great design.

    *edit
    Just like to point out that my HB hits for 3-6k every 5 sec to unlimitied targets not sure how much more snap aggro than that you need...

    Also to the ones saying dnd is bad on boss tanking, have you actually looked at the numbers vs runecost? When i was tanking as unholy it did close to 500dmg a tick which is a total of 20k threat for 3 runes. Not bad imo.
    Last edited by nips; 01-28-2009 at 02:31 AM.

  18. #18
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    let me get this right...

    your a DK with the health pool, armor and defence rating/crit immunity ability of a prot warrior.
    your a DK with the avoidance of a Druid
    your a DK with the weapons and ability to dual weild of a rogue/fury warrior
    your a DK with the ability to aoe like a pally.

    what was the problem again ?
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    Nice Robbon =)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  20. #20
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    Runestrile does have a threat multiplier (150%) and so does DnD, and as you get better gear, you get better AP, which in turn makes you hit harder... which will give you more threat.

    I rarely am low on RP to runestrike, and if I have BoS I always have enough.

    I guess I can kinda see why you are worried, but all four tank classes are about equal, and will scale together in later content.

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