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Thread: goodbye, cruel world...

  1. #1
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    goodbye, cruel world...

    i recently posted this in the 'Small questions' thread but didn't get a response:

    Quote Originally Posted by deadwrong View Post
    3.0.8 has not fixed anything WRT the lag in instances. i am getting increasingly concerned about the knock-on effect that this is having on the raiding community.

    we are all aware that the current content is very poor in terms of the skill required to complete. the only real way we have to keep raiders interested are the hard-mode sarth and going for achievements. both of these become close to impossible on lag nights.

    so - as i see it - we're stuck. the current content does nothing to satisfy the appetite of our raiders. we cannot fall back on achievements / hard-modes to spice thngs up because there is a good chance we will be owned by the lag.

    there is no solution here, sorry, it is just a rant. we just decided to cancel our weds night raids as this seems to be the most affected. things seem to calm down by 22.00 server time but we're not about to re-sched all raids to start at this time. /sigh
    we have now had three of our very good raiders step down due to the above and i am afraid that it is not going to stop there.

    to paint the picture (and this is not an epeen brag, it is so you know the situation all the members of our RG are in); we cleared all 25 man content in our first week of raiding, we have done Sarth + 3 but not Maly6, we're attempting all achievements in 25-mans when we can (hi lag!). i wouldn't describe us as an aggressive progression guild but we do like to see new content and kill before nerfs.

    but, even with all the above, we're down ro raiding two nights a week (three if there is a really bad lag night and we simply call things rather than bang heads against walls), and people are leaving.

    whilst i fully appreciate what Blizz tried to do with WotLK (make more of the game available to more players) i do now feel that this is adversely affecting the raiding community. not wanting this to just be a whinge thread, iwould like to know if other guilds are having the same troubles and, if so, what people are doing to try and combat this.

    thanks in advance.

    - DW

  2. #2
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    We consider the lag another boss, and I keep telling my guildies how good and pro they are that we conquer the lag where other guilds cancel raids.

    I even go as far as telling everyone that we wouldn't have been where we are if we had given in to lag.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    We consider the lag another boss, and I keep telling my guildies how good and pro they are that we conquer the lag where other guilds cancel raids.

    I even go as far as telling everyone that we wouldn't have been where we are if we had given in to lag.
    Brings back to mind the Baal place in diablo 2.

    Sometimes I'd wish the last(or any other really) boss would always be something to be wary off while on your way to him.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by deadwrong View Post
    whilst i fully appreciate what Blizz tried to do with WotLK (make more of the game available to more players) i do now feel that this is adversely affecting the raiding community. not wanting this to just be a whinge thread, iwould like to know if other guilds are having the same troubles and, if so, what people are doing to try and combat this.

    thanks in advance.

    - DW
    When wrath came out there was this mad dash to be the first for everything. People didn't sleep - they lvled, people skipped all the content/quests/hard work that gets from 70 to 80 - the bulk of what wrath was.

    Now that they plowed through the raid content they're board and looking for someone to blame.

    I say, you can't blame anyone else but yourself Don't take it personally but for people who took their time to enjoy the game they're just finishing up first clears in 25 mans and now on to farming for gear and actively researching what Ulduar may bring as well as enjoying the achievements.

    Personally, i think for the next expansion pack blizz should just skip out on questing all together and work entirely on end game, raiding, heroics, dungeons and more caverns of time story line battles.

    Obviously for most people questing is the boring part and if you ask me questing is what made wrath - "Wrath" - they got back to a storyline and integral WoW core that BC seemed to just ignore completely (felt the BC story was lacking).

    as for the lag...

    Blizz needs to rebuild their engine & graphics system from the ground up. As the population of more capable computers and power users grow its quickly outgrowing the pace that blizzard can keep up. The serious design flaws in their infrastructure and client are starting to shine and i'm surprised they rolled out 3.0 without addressing them.

  5. #5
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    i actually thought we were pretty relaxed with our 25-man raiding schedule at the start - at least relative to actual 'progression' guilds.

    i think blaming the players for levelling and clearing content too fast is a convenient excuse. i agree that the lore in WotLK is far superior to that in TBC and much more enjoyable (yes, i did read and enjoy it whilst levelling to 80). i can only assume that Blizz have made a conscious decision, alongside their opening of content, to scale back the difficulty of raiding on such a massive scale as we're seeing with Naxx/T7. if this is true then you're right in that RG's will need to re-think how they approach the content.

    there are pro's and con's to this. the biggest pro is that, yes, now we know that the content will be fairly easy, and that there will be a pretty big gap before anything new hits, we can all slow down, cut back raiding schedules, and enjoy other things more (read: in and outside of WoW). the downside is that, in doing so, Blizz are radically changing how the endgame plays out and this may cause more fatalities within the raiding community.

    @Orcstar - yeah, the lag can cause lulz sometimes, and it is kinda fun if you down a boss with it but the unpredictability it brings is not conducive to going for achievements, nor does it help keep a content-starved RG interested.

    - DW
    Last edited by deadwrong; 01-27-2009 at 05:34 AM. Reason: spellz

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahism View Post
    as for the lag...

    Blizz needs to rebuild their engine & graphics system from the ground up. As the population of more capable computers and power users grow its quickly outgrowing the pace that blizzard can keep up.
    I have no idea what FPS/Blizzards Graphics system has to do with Latency.

    And I'd have to disagree, a lot of people are complaining about low fps in dalaran.

  7. #7
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    We must be lucky then, because I haven't been in a situation where lag gimped us to such an extent where raiding wasn't possible. Of course, our raidnight is Friday evening (from 7 to 10 pm) in which we clear Maly and Naxx 10, and on Saturday we do Sarth+1 or 2 drakes. Seems like Friday and Saturday are fairly quiet evenings, and 10 pm means you're in great time to hop to the pub to frink a few pints!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahism View Post
    Now that they plowed through the raid content they're board and looking for someone to blame.
    We aren't bored and looking for someone to blame, we are frustrated because we can't go for the harder achievements because of bad server performance.

    Also people enjoy different things in WoW. For me the game is at level 80, everything before that is just a trip to the dentist.

    And....hi DW

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by IKT View Post
    I have no idea what FPS/Blizzards Graphics system has to do with Latency.

    And I'd have to disagree, a lot of people are complaining about low fps in dalaran.
    I think you misunderstood what i said, I said wow performs dismal even if our computers severely out power it.

    I have an i7, 8 gigs ram, X2 4870 system that can't get more than 35fps in dalaran unless i drop a lot of graphics settings while my 4870 sits at idle loads.

    I believe if blizzard had updated their engine to offload the graphics subsystem from their propriertary DX8/SDL implementation to DX9/10 it wouldn't be a problem for me. All those fancy whizbang graphics would be fully accelerated.

    Problem with the engine as it stands now is a graphics clog so to say can cause DC's because the network thread goes caput waiting on IO thats stuck trying to show some insane DK battle graphics.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by melech View Post
    We aren't bored and looking for someone to blame, we are frustrated because we can't go for the harder achievements because of bad server performance.

    Also people enjoy different things in WoW. For me the game is at level 80, everything before that is just a trip to the dentist.

    And....hi DW
    Its a combination of server issues and client design. I bet if everyone in your raid turned off spell casting graphics, disabled shadows completely and turned their graphics to medium low you wouldn't have nearly the issues.

    Also, don't invite any DK's along

    As for the boredom part/frustration/lack of wrath raid content - i always love to see someones /played out put. ONce you see that the value sinks in (or the notion of how the heck did i play that much sinks in)

  11. #11
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    The game performance problems are unfortunate. Many people including myself should probably upgrade their graphics cards and at least max out their system memory to whatever their box will support since it's so cheap.

    Some people need to be on and playing 24/7 to be happy. Some call it hardcore, I call it unhealthy like need a 12-step program unhealthy. Are the people that are leaving hoping to find a guild that won't run into lag and performance problems during raids?

    Completing content and cutting down to a light schedule while waiting for the next release is a good thing, and is how people raid for several years without getting completely burned out and fed up with the game. If they were in my guild I'd just take them leaving at face value for being mercenaries who's ties to the guild only go as far as loot and feeding their expectations for epeen will take them.

  12. #12
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    again, I doubt turning down the graphics will have any effect on the latency of the game, the relative package size being sent around is insignificant compared to the packet loss caused by latency.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    again, I doubt turning down the graphics will have any effect on the latency of the game, the relative package size being sent around is insignificant compared to the packet loss caused by latency.
    We're mixing things up.. most of the issues with 25 man aren't the little ping meter built into the wow client (that is a ping, not a real latency - it doesn't measure client/network/server load to distinguish a metrics of which the game is playable.. whomever named ping latency should be shot!)

    Most people are getting dc'd because their computer is trying to compute too much whenever your in a 25 man scenario.

    There were widespread server issues, widespread northrend/wintergrasp issues and there are things that blizzard can address on the server side to optimize their networking, server load and capacity problems. No doubt that

    But i'm willing to bet if everyone tuned down their clients in 25 mans then those cpu peaks from graphical explosions wouldn't impact the networking threads so if there is a little latency it would result in LAGG instead of a DC and less noticeable client lag because your computer isn't chugging away on spell/battle graphics for 24 people - dk's being notoriously cpu heavy causing DC's even when 2 manning some raid content. (not so bad in 5 mans)

    and once again, if blizz designed graphics with GPU in mind the entire graphics debate would be moot for most people with an ATI 3 series or higher or an Nvidia 7 series or higher.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahism View Post
    I think you misunderstood what i said, I said wow performs dismal even if our computers severely out power it.

    I have an i7, 8 gigs ram, X2 4870 system that can't get more than 35fps in dalaran unless i drop a lot of graphics settings while my 4870 sits at idle loads.

    I believe if blizzard had updated their engine to offload the graphics subsystem from their propriertary DX8/SDL implementation to DX9/10 it wouldn't be a problem for me. All those fancy whizbang graphics would be fully accelerated.

    Problem with the engine as it stands now is a graphics clog so to say can cause DC's because the network thread goes caput waiting on IO thats stuck trying to show some insane DK battle graphics.
    I seem to remember them saying they were holding off on upgrading the graphics system until the next ex pack. I think they're concerned that integrated graphics sets need to be able to run the game. People don't want to pay hundreds just to play.

    Certain places are like that. For some reason, I get around ~35 FPS in Terrokar Forest with an i7, 6GB of RAM and a GTX260, but can but get 60FPS everywhere in Northrend but Dalaran, where I can maybe get to 35 on a good day.

  15. #15
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    People are complaining about the several second latency and instances hanging for seconds/minutes at a time. Not FPS issues. Sure, some clueless individuals who don't know any better are complaining about FPS. But that's not a concern.

    If you have no idea what the community is talking about, go to Premonition - Sen'jin (US), click the video link in the 2nd news post, about us server transferring. Watch the video. That's the problem.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  16. #16
    Yes. As Xav has pointed out, the only real (and the only immediate) solution is to transfer your characters to a new, low-population server that isn't maxed out every night from 7-11p server. Sucks, but it's worth the money if you can't play the game you want to play on the server you're currently on.

    Client performance is a very minor consideration when discussing Blizzard's overwhelmed server performance. In these situations, the guys on the 4 year old Radeon 9800pros are going to be having the same difficulties as the people on their new i7-core, quadruple GPU rigs.

  17. #17
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    You won't escape the problem entirely by moving around. My brother plays on a low population server and you see the same thing there just less severe and less frequent.
    That several second delay thing is more likely to have been brought on by a change in network provider than any changes to the game. Spanning tree comes to mind.

    More memory does help with model loading which will boost every day game performance. Which is what makes a place like Dalaran run like absolute crap. Go to Shatt now that it's a ghost town and see how clean it runs lol. Nothing to do with lag deaths I agree.

  18. #18
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    Servers/server cluster with less people on them definitely have better instance performance than (over)populated ones, Kolben.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  19. #19
    I think that saying that people who do not hardocre raid being able to see all content is the cause of the lag is not very fair. As a casual raider i wholeheartedly support this new develpoment, i think Blizzard understood that people were getting annoyed at not seeing all of the game they are paying for.
    What i am angry at is that Blizzard, while adopting this new view, did not upgrade their hardware to compensate. So please lets not blame the casual raiders, lets ask blizzard to upgrade the servers =D.
    Last edited by Gordonoth; 01-27-2009 at 11:32 AM.

  20. #20
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    Well the servers aren't pushing any graphics at all. These are "headless" HP-UX machines (think they still use HP-UX) with fast disks probably in an external array and I'd assume they have the maximum supported memory. I.e. a standard database server. More than likely the WoW realm server and the database run on separate machines on the same subnet (gb). They probably have qfe NICs, and may even be in HA pairs.

    Server performance usually doesn't get chunky like that, it grinds down due to runaway processes or maybe failing disks, full swap etc. Hiccups like that are what I'd expect to see from a service host switch, Server Iron, or spanning tree problems. In other words service switching or blocking, maybe even wonky frame sizes. These are a bitch to sort out.

    Anyway, I just can't picture it being the fault of "casual raiders" or some nonsense like that. I can buy that heavier loads mean more severe symptoms, but any time I've been involved in a nightmare problem like this it's because we got new network gear, switched providers or some other unforseen problem that keeps your pager buzzing at 3AM.
    Last edited by kolben; 01-27-2009 at 11:55 AM.

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