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Thread: Broken Promise vs. Red sword

  1. #21
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    So then we have to figure out if increased deepwounds dmg can make up the 50k (or 35k) total dmg discrepancy. Probably wont, but at least it closes the gap some. Oh and the slight increase in devastate damage which is probably negligible.
    Galushi - 85 Dwarf Warrior - Shadowsong US Alliance.
    Branigan - 85 Goblin Warrior - Kilrogg US Horde.

  2. #22
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    Yep, but I really should be working so that's a project for someone else.
    Got a question? Try here: Evil Empire Guides and here: Tankspot Guides and Articles Library first!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daavos View Post
    Ah... What?

    I don't have the Redsword, i have the 1.5 tank weapon from nax. So i can't make a direct comparison.

    I'd like to see a WWS with the redsword or the another fast tank weapon. Tanking excel sheets under assuming optiminal conditions isn't winning me over.
    Redsword (and Slayer of the Lifeless) gain their dps edge from squeezing out more heroic strikes. They're inferior at everything else, but in a good parse you'll see HS do ~30% of a tanks damage. Second and third would be SS and Rev.

    So out of the top 3 moves the only HS is dependent on the weapon. If your parse doesn't follow this, then the fast weapon/slow weapon debate doesn't really matter (ie, trash pulls or random low rage fights). Basically, you *have to* spam heroic strike to maximize Red Swords advantage (and your general dps no matter what weapon).

    I agree about wws or better modelling. BP has 20 expertise at the cost of 10 hit. You can argue that the dps and str difference are inconsequential, but 20 expertise is *a lot*.

    Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft

    FWIW maxdps rates the slayer of the lifeless higher than red sword despite slayer having less hit, presumably because of the weapon speed (I'm assuming the dps/str differences are a wash).

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Redsword (and Slayer of the Lifeless) gain their dps edge from squeezing out more heroic strikes. They're inferior at everything else, but in a good parse you'll see HS do ~30% of a tanks damage. Second and third would be SS and Rev.

    So out of the top 3 moves the only HS is dependent on the weapon. If your parse doesn't follow this, then the fast weapon/slow weapon debate doesn't really matter (ie, trash pulls or random low rage fights). Basically, you *have to* spam heroic strike to maximize Red Swords advantage (and your general dps no matter what weapon).

    I agree about wws or better modelling. BP has 20 expertise at the cost of 10 hit. You can argue that the dps and str difference are inconsequential, but 20 expertise is *a lot*.

    Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft

    FWIW maxdps rates the slayer of the lifeless higher than red sword despite slayer having less hit, presumably because of the weapon speed (I'm assuming the dps/str differences are a wash).

    Still waiting for a wws with the RedSword.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daavos View Post
    I don't have the Redsword, i have the 1.5 tank weapon from nax. So i can't make a direct comparison.
    The 1.5 speed weapon is better than Red Sword since it's the same dps and faster.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post

    FWIW maxdps rates the slayer of the lifeless higher than red sword despite slayer having less hit, presumably because of the weapon speed (I'm assuming the dps/str differences are a wash).
    I should smack you for using Maxdps's prot gear comparison. LOL

    That site used to be good for very quick comparisons, but a majority of their "spreadsheets" are out of date and either modeled for preLK stuff or just lvl 70 with LK talents. Theres only a few calcs on there that let you input your level, and they havent been keeping up with recent patches (such as the hunter nerfs).

    TLR....Maxdps is Ugh..
    Galushi - 85 Dwarf Warrior - Shadowsong US Alliance.
    Branigan - 85 Goblin Warrior - Kilrogg US Horde.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galushi View Post
    I should smack you for using Maxdps's prot gear comparison. LOL
    I know .

    That was actually the last time I went to maxdps to see their new prot gear rating feature. It wasn't up to snuff and I feel like I can evaluate gear just fine by now. But that comparison, Slayer > Red Sword always bugged me.

    Seeing this threat reminded me of that comparison. Although, after I posted, I realized that the Slayer's 4 more str -> 8 Ap -> 8/14 dps. Which is much more than the 0.1 dps edge the Red Sword has.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daavos View Post
    Still waiting for a wws with the RedSword.
    http://wowwebstats.com/mujtyhvur3dd3...5682&a=xd321dd

    This may have timed out by now, but when I tried to check it put me #412 in queue and I didn't feel like waiting. I was using Red Sword of Courage the entire night.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnourisofRavencrest View Post
    http://wowwebstats.com/mujtyhvur3dd3...5682&a=xd321dd

    This may have timed out by now, but when I tried to check it put me #412 in queue and I didn't feel like waiting. I was using Red Sword of Courage the entire night.
    Thank you for responing, but it keeps timing out.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnourisofRavencrest View Post
    Wow Web Stats

    This may have timed out by now, but when I tried to check it put me #412 in queue and I didn't feel like waiting. I was using Red Sword of Courage the entire night.
    Crap.

    I was already to point out that we did the same damage, we had the approx the same number of HS and mele swings - but then I noticed the duration of your fight was 3 mins and mine was 4mins.

    Your DW also roled over more damage in a shorter fight then my longer fight.

    You win.
    Last edited by Daavos; 01-29-2009 at 01:15 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    I pray BP drops and our pally tank takes it so I don't have to argue with him over Last Laugh.
    Our Pally tank actually passed Last Laugh to me. Broken Promise dropped for him last night, so that made him happy. Hopefully someday soon, Last Laugh will drop again for him. Damn caster shield keeps dropping for us, though, again, and again, and again. No shield love for tanks in Naxx25, yet.

    I happen to love the way Broken Promise looks and I was very interested in getting one to test things out. But, the math behind it and the testing that has been done just verifies that it is no where near as good as a faster tanking weapons with a 100% Heroic Strike uptime. I am not saying that you cannot use it or even hold threat with it, over your DPSers. But, it will not provide the same amount of damage or threat as a fast weapon with similar DPS, no where and no how. As we progress through harder content, and your DPS gets geared, you will see yourself returning to the Red Sword, if you have not been lucky enough to upgrade beyond it. Just considering the damage output, I would change back to the Red Sword and keep Broken Promise for looks, especially with the possible nerf to Deep Wounds coming.
    Last edited by Bayho; 01-29-2009 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Addition.
    Loyalty above all, except Honor.

  12. #32
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    I've use broken promise on every content there is in the game. I upgraded it from my quest blue and never felt it inferior to anything. Recently I got the 10man naxx sword with a 1.50 speed and didn't find it any better (or worse) than broken promise.

    Having used both I can say that if you're the type that just spams your HS key without watching your rage you will run out of rage with a 1.5 compared to a 2.5 (without BoS)

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daavos View Post
    Still waiting for a wws with the RedSword.
    I have been trying to max dps and testing different stuff. Ill do a comparison this week. I have Last Laugh and Broken Promise. I am hit capped (kind of) and expertise capped so the comparison can be based mainly off my weapon speed and my general performance. But.. we will need to wait till next Tuesday for the Broken Promise wws logs.

    Using a 15/5/51 spec (when tanking, if you look now youll see a really odd prot pvp spec)

    Last Laugh (1.6)
    Patchwerk - WWS
    2 Min 57Sec
    3021 dps
    0 Missed only 3 normal (white) swings
    HS: 37% of damage
    Deep Wounds: 11%


    Broken Promise (2.5)
    Patchwerk - Coming 2/3

  14. #34
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    The thing to remember about Deep Wounds is that you will get more procs of it when you have a faster weapon as well. Basically, since the procs/sec on your weapon hits will increase the only factor to consider is Deep Wounds from non-swings.

    So... Let's take a stab at factoring this out.

    As a Warrior tank will be using every GCD, you have 1.5 * CritRate chance of proc'ing deep wounds from instants. Additionally you will have a AttackerSpeed * CritRate chance to proc deep wounds from Damage Shield.

    Fully raid-buffed I would guess an average crit rate to estimate would be something like 35% on Shield Slam/Devastate, and 20% on Damage Shield and the other instant attacks. In an average SnB rotation the ability usage will be something like 30% abilities without a bonus +15% crit rate.

    Finally, we'll say the average boss attack speed is 2s.

    So, in the end we get:
    DeepWoundsPPS = (1 / 1.5 * .7 * .35) + (1 / 1.5 * .3 * .2) + (1 / 2 * .2)
    DeepWoundsPPS = 0.163 + 0.04 + 0.1
    DeepWoundsPPS = 0.303

    So, the final formula for factoring the DPS increase...

    Using Satrina's numbers:
    Broken Promise averages 391 damage per swing
    Red Sword averages 229 damage per swing
    Last Laugh averages 274 damage per swing

    Multipliers for a Prot Warrior are usually going to be something like 0.9 * 1.1 * 1.03 = 1.0197 (Defensive Stance + Enrage + 3% Raid Buff), with Bleed Multipliers at 0.30. Currently Deep Wounds double-dips from multipliers, so that's why it's in there twice.

    Final formula for the DPS difference on instants/damage shield from Deep Wounds:
    DeepWoundsDPS = (((Weapon Damage) * Multipliers) * BleedMultipliers * Multipliers) * DeepWoundsPPS
    BrokenPromise = ((391 * 1.0197) * 1.3 * 1.0197) * 0.303 = 160.14
    RedSword = ((229 * 1.0197) * 1.3 * 1.0197) * 0.303 = 93.79
    LastLaugh = ((274 * 1.0197) * 1.3 * 1.0197) * 0.303 = 112.22

    So, you gain 66.35 DPS from Deep Wounds by swapping to the Broken Promise from the Red Sword. Over a 4 minute fight that would be 15924 damage.

    As the difference posted by Satrina was 23604 prior to armor, the DPS difference probably doesn't end up being huge but it's still in the favor of the Red Sword. Additionally, the bonus threat on HS is much larger of an impact compared to Deep Wounds damage so the Red Sword would do substantially more TPS.

    For AoE tanking, you would probably find a skew towards the slower weapon though... as Thunder Clap and Damage Shield will have a much higher percentage of usage and only scaler in regard to weapon would be the higher Deep Wounds damage.

    With my full raid-buffed stats and factoring in a total DPS cycle in my new Rawr.ProtWarr model, swapping to the Broken Promise from Red Sword results in a DPS gain of 39 and a threat loss of 149 TPS.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-30-2009 at 07:07 AM.

  15. #35
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    Red Sword WWS for Patches:
    WWS Loading...

    threat Parse from same fight:
    Horacio produced 6387 tps vs Patchwerk

    Ick, Ono is making me look bad. I'm getting a lower crit rate and my hits are smaller. It may be a buff here or there but its likely overall gear choices/quality. My HS/white swing ratio is pretty good and I'm using SW/Conc on open GCDs.
    Last edited by Horacio; 01-30-2009 at 01:31 PM.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  16. #36
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    wow guys, thanks for the great replies. I've been snowed in with slow internet so I haven't had much of a chance to check this thread.

    Now I feel reassured. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong...I took BP into a patch fight and couldn't break 2k dps. Hopefully I'll do better with the red sword.

    Sorry for being lazy and starting a duplicate thread btw.

  17. #37
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    I was happy to get this until reading this thread. I have gone with the Red Sword for boss fights and glad to read here that was the right choice. Kel is being stingy with both the Ax and the Shield as is Patchwerk. Tonights a new week though. Thanks for this post.

  18. #38
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    This should really be a closed discussion. I'm sure nearly 100% of the top warrior tanks in the world subscribe to the fast>slow theory, and its been math-proven countless times.

    To those who still want to dispute it, remember that although your DW damage would be higher with BP or another slow weapon, you will not be applying as many stacks. Hitting more often with an ability like HS (with the incite +15% crit) increases your quantity of ticks with DWs, and hence contributes to higher overall damage. Not enough, I'd guess, to make Red Sword do more DW damage than Broken Promise, but it should close that gap.

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